What are you thoughts on Annihilation?
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That was not belittling-- I said "disordered' , not disoriented --in what he types--it is not coherent. I don't think anyone would say I was belittling him.
And Gardenias --I can't make sense of your response. I gave an analogy that was very straightforward--if we think a human horrible for torturing someone else, how much worse is it to say that God would do far worse? Also, the worst punishment that our earthly laws have is DEATH. Only evil people use torture as a form of punishment.
CV5, we all know you aren't reading anything we wrote--and I for one am beginning to suspect you are some sort of ETC algorithm that some hacker infected this forum with... that keeps repeating the same thing...over and over again.
Just inquiring here not negatively either.
Are you by chance on the spectrum.
Please do not get upset, I'm asking to get a better understanding of your thinking patterns.
Do any of these scriptures say eternal torment? Yes or no will be fine.
Matthew 10:28
28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell
John 3:16
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Romans 2:7
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Romans 6:23
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
2 Thessalonians 1:9
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Philippians 3:18-19
18(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
Hebrews 10:26-27
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Hebrews 10:39
39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
James 4:12
12There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
2 Peter 3:7
7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Revelation 20:14-15
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Psalm 1:16
6For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.
Psalm 37:20
20But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Psalm 92:7
7that though the wicked sprout like grass, and all evildoers flourish, they will be forever destroyed.
Ezekiel 18:20
20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Matthew 10:28
28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell
John 3:16
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Romans 2:7
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Romans 6:23
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
2 Thessalonians 1:9
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Philippians 3:18-19
18(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
Hebrews 10:26-27
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Hebrews 10:39
39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
James 4:12
12There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
2 Peter 3:7
7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Revelation 20:14-15
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Psalm 1:16
6For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.
Psalm 37:20
20But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Psalm 92:7
7that though the wicked sprout like grass, and all evildoers flourish, they will be forever destroyed.
Ezekiel 18:20
20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
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Please go thru this post--you are responding without looking at the voluminous verses we posted that say LITERALLY the end of the unbeliever is DEATH / DESTRUCTION. Note too the these words are interchangeable: Eternal Fire/Eternal Punishment/Eternal Destruction-- words ending in 'ment' and 'tion' are not ongoing they are FINAL.
Again, if you say ETC is the punishment for sin then you are saying Christ did not pay the penalty in full by his DEATH. That He is or will be in ETERNAL CONSCIOUS TORMENT if THAT is the punishment and not death.
Funny. I was going to ask you the same thing, but realized that would really be a mean thing to say, so thought the better of it.
"Like one who grabs a dog by the ears is a passerby who meddles in a quarrel not his own. Like a madman shooting firebrands and deadly arrows, so is the man who deceives his neighbor and says, “I was only joking!”…" --Proverbs 26:18-19
"Like one who grabs a dog by the ears is a passerby who meddles in a quarrel not his own. Like a madman shooting firebrands and deadly arrows, so is the man who deceives his neighbor and says, “I was only joking!”…" --Proverbs 26:18-19
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Here's an idea Diakonos--since there are1000+ post do what I do. I put the person's name at the top. Also I see at least two people who have responded to you that were not the person you were addressing--funny how you have to single me out for correction.
PS when you're looking at multiple posts it can appear it is a general post, not to a particular individual--does that make sense?One thing that stands out like a sore thumb is ETC'ers do NOT investigate for themselves the scriptures and they are arrogant in their manner of speaking--they PUT ON the scriptures--Eiseges--what they have been taught by their denominations. They do not practice Exegesis--that is what is the author truly saying?
Funny. I was going to ask you the same thing, but realized that would really be a mean thing to say, so thought the better of it.
"Like one who grabs a dog by the ears is a passerby who meddles in a quarrel not his own. Like a madman shooting firebrands and deadly arrows, so is the man who deceives his neighbor and says, “I was only joking!”…" --Proverbs 26:18-19
"Like one who grabs a dog by the ears is a passerby who meddles in a quarrel not his own. Like a madman shooting firebrands and deadly arrows, so is the man who deceives his neighbor and says, “I was only joking!”…" --Proverbs 26:18-19
Well you are NOT funny and I seriously doubt you just spoke the truth about having the same thought!
God will reveal what we think is hidden!
If this is going to be your attitude then I can no longer converse with you!
I already told you that Genesis 2:4 is the transition from one huge context to the next. This is It is the first transition of the 12 major divisions in the book of Genesis [2:4, 5:1, 6:9, 10:1, 11:10, 11:27, 25:12, 19, 36:1, 9, 37:2]).
So you believe that yom always means a 24-hour day and never means anything else in the Bible?
Again, you're lumping together contexts that are different. chapter 4:1-5:13 concerns justification by faith, while chapters 5:14-8:39 concerns the sanctification of the saints. The context shift happens halfway through Romans chapter 5. The latter section of the chapter is the results of the former section.
Jesus' death is typologically linked to Adam's death (Rom 5:14) Read it.
If your appeal to this chapter interprets Adam's death as spiritual, then you have to say that Jesus died spiritually too.
So you believe that yom always means a 24-hour day and never means anything else in the Bible?
Again, you're lumping together contexts that are different. chapter 4:1-5:13 concerns justification by faith, while chapters 5:14-8:39 concerns the sanctification of the saints. The context shift happens halfway through Romans chapter 5. The latter section of the chapter is the results of the former section.
Jesus' death is typologically linked to Adam's death (Rom 5:14) Read it.
If your appeal to this chapter interprets Adam's death as spiritual, then you have to say that Jesus died spiritually too.
@Laura798 .
I am sorry for hurting your feelings and I never intend to be mean.
I am very blunt in what I believe and what I say.
I find people,all people to be God's most unique and interesting creation.
Maybe you are sensitive where I am blunt and it might be good to just pass and repass with one another instead of engaging.
Truce
I am sorry for hurting your feelings and I never intend to be mean.
I am very blunt in what I believe and what I say.
I find people,all people to be God's most unique and interesting creation.
Maybe you are sensitive where I am blunt and it might be good to just pass and repass with one another instead of engaging.
Truce
You didn't catch the sarcasm? You can be so mean and you are so blind to it. Asking if I was on the 'spectrum' was terrible. No decent person would ask anyone that--not even someone they knew well.
Truce. And apology accepted. I appreciate it.
" Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you."--Ephesians 4:32
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I'm fine responding to people that I don't already have an ongoing conversation with. But if I already have an ongoing conversation, then I only prefer to respond if its a direct quote of my own comment to them.
I would not respond to this:
While I would respond to this:
Do you understand now?
One reason for this is that it's easy to lose track of which posts have been responded to. So if there are many separate replies from the same person, there's a good chance I will miss something and your comment will float off in the void
Another reason is that if we are having two or more conversations at the same time, one of us might accidentally respond to the other conversation unintentionally, which leads to confusion and when one of us want to reference the conversation later, its impossible to know where the commenter intended to respond to when they make that mistake.
Another reason is that many doctrinal conversations are systematic, meaning certain things need to be agreed on before moving further in a subject. If I am having a conversation with another person (let's call them John), and he and I have already established much common ground earlier in the discussion, then he and I are equipped for a profitable conversation.
(hypothetically) Imagine that you and I are also having a discussion in the same thread but about a different aspect of the main topic. And you and I haven't established as much common ground as I have with John. This means that our conversation isn't ready to go to the level that John and I are having (or vice versa).
So if you interfere with my conversation with John but we are not ready to have that part of the conversation yet, then I am forced to answer the response differently. He might see my response to you and think it's the answer I would give him (but it's not). So he then responds to this new off branch I had to create to answer you.
You may or may not understand where I am coming from, but it's the best I can explain over text. That being said, please just have one coherent conversation with me per thread, not a bunch of mini conversations.
Please and thank you.
I would not respond to this:
While I would respond to this:
Do you understand now?
One reason for this is that it's easy to lose track of which posts have been responded to. So if there are many separate replies from the same person, there's a good chance I will miss something and your comment will float off in the void
Another reason is that if we are having two or more conversations at the same time, one of us might accidentally respond to the other conversation unintentionally, which leads to confusion and when one of us want to reference the conversation later, its impossible to know where the commenter intended to respond to when they make that mistake.
Another reason is that many doctrinal conversations are systematic, meaning certain things need to be agreed on before moving further in a subject. If I am having a conversation with another person (let's call them John), and he and I have already established much common ground earlier in the discussion, then he and I are equipped for a profitable conversation.
(hypothetically) Imagine that you and I are also having a discussion in the same thread but about a different aspect of the main topic. And you and I haven't established as much common ground as I have with John. This means that our conversation isn't ready to go to the level that John and I are having (or vice versa).
So if you interfere with my conversation with John but we are not ready to have that part of the conversation yet, then I am forced to answer the response differently. He might see my response to you and think it's the answer I would give him (but it's not). So he then responds to this new off branch I had to create to answer you.
You may or may not understand where I am coming from, but it's the best I can explain over text. That being said, please just have one coherent conversation with me per thread, not a bunch of mini conversations.
Please and thank you.
After your initial 'correction' I don't think I've had any conversations with you--I mistakenly responded to this last one thinking it was a general post.
I'm not sure why the lengthy explanation--I gave you an easy solution--you can simply type the person's name. Like I said, everyone is responding to everyone else, that's why I type the person's name--to make it clear I am speaking to them directly.
PS I'm looking back at the posting and you were responding to CV5 's sarcastic comment--not much of a theological discussion going on there....
Eternal life is not a QUANTITY of life. It is a QUALITY of life. A life of boundless infinite worship joy and blessed fellowship, being made perfectly righteous and holy and enjoying God forever. A life without trials tears torments or suffering.
Just the same way eternal death is not a quantity of death....... An existence with NEVERENDING trials tears torments and suffering.
Unredeemed humanity today is NOT enjoying true life......the Bible does say very clearly that we were BORN SPIRITUALLY DEAD......yet we walk and talk and eat etc. That's why Jesus stays in John chapter 3 that we must be born again.
Scripture is very clear on this which puts the final nail in the coffin of the HERESY of Annihilationism. Given the massive number of scriptures pertaining to the matter I really don't see what this debate is all about. Denial of the clear and obvious truth and facts is not a debate at all.
Beware because it appears that we have some Jehovah's Witnesses infiltrating this thread.
Just the same way eternal death is not a quantity of death......
. An existence with NEVERENDING trials tears torments and suffering.Unredeemed humanity today is NOT enjoying true life......the Bible does say very clearly that we were BORN SPIRITUALLY DEAD......yet we walk and talk and eat etc. That's why Jesus stays in John chapter 3 that we must be born again.
Scripture is very clear on this which puts the final nail in the coffin of the HERESY of Annihilationism. Given the massive number of scriptures pertaining to the matter I really don't see what this debate is all about. Denial of the clear and obvious truth and facts is not a debate at all.
Beware because it appears that we have some Jehovah's Witnesses infiltrating this thread.
1) I know that there are verse about eternal torment. So it seems like there there are eternal punishment, But I don't know our father God would agree with our version of narration or not.
2) If the eternal torment is taken literally than It is not like suit with Gods character(Loving, Graceful towards all in any time).
** So Actually I don't know what is the correct answer- eternal torment or annihilation? But I do know God would prefer us to do the work of sharing gospel over that two. So I will work on that.
thank you.-
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