What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

[arpon]

I believe in eternal torment, as probably most of us do here. But this guy lays out a pretty good argument for annihilation.

My question to you is if there is eternal torment, that means whoever is in eternal torment they still are alive. So they have eternal life. But God promises eternal life to only those who believes in God. SO How could they have eternal life in eternal torment? From which Bible verse do you refer?

 

[cv5]

My question to you is if there is eternal torment, that means whoever is in eternal torment they still are alive. So they have eternal life. But God promises eternal life to only those who believes in God. SO How could they have eternal life in eternal torment? From which Bible verse do you refer?

Eternal life is not a QUANTITY of life. It is a QUALITY of life. A life of boundless infinite worship joy and blessed fellowship, being made perfectly righteous and holy and enjoying God forever. A life without trials tears torments or suffering.

Just the same way eternal death is not a quantity of death....... An existence with NEVERENDING trials tears torments and suffering.

Unredeemed humanity today is NOT enjoying true life......the Bible does say very clearly that we were BORN SPIRITUALLY DEAD......yet we walk and talk and eat etc. That's why Jesus stays in John chapter 3 that we must be born again.

Scripture is very clear on this which puts the final nail in the coffin of the HERESY of Annihilationism. Given the massive number of scriptures pertaining to the matter I really don't see what this debate is all about. Denial of the clear and obvious truth and facts is not a debate at all.

Beware because it appears that we have some Jehovah's Witnesses infiltrating this thread.

 

[Laura798]

I think JW's should confess that they are indeed JW's. Unless they are ashamed or trying to deceive.

DB,

Here you respond yet again with another accusation that we are JW's. Also, you responded to a message that was addressed to Rayzor--- to something he had written, not to the whole thread.

What in that particular message are you disagreeing with?

• That Jesus is the spotless lamb that takes away the sins of the world -or-
• That Satan is Christ's enemy

Do you not believe these to be truths of Scripture? If you do not believe these are true--as well as CV5 since he agreed with you, then what is it you do believe?

 

[Laura798]

I'll stick with the Bible.

Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

<this is figurative for ETERNITY and TORMENTED means PUNISHMENT evidenced by ALL other verses in both the New and Old Testament that say the wicked will:

PERISH/ DIE/ BE DESTROYED.


DB,

We have posted hundreds of verses to your one--what other LITERAL verses (and please VERSE (S) not just one verse. It must be LITERAL , not FIGURATIVE.

 

[Laura798]

My question to you is if there is eternal torment, that means whoever is in eternal torment they still are alive. So they have eternal life. But God promises eternal life to only those who believes in God. SO How could they have eternal life in eternal torment? From which Bible verse do you refer?

Arpon, if you do a search for Radius you will see that he has changed his position--praise God!

 

[cv5]

<this is figurative for ETERNITY and TORMENTED means PUNISHMENT evidenced by ALL other verses in both the New and Old Testament that say the wicked will:

PERISH/ DIE/ BE DESTROYED.


DB,

We have posted hundreds of verses to your one--what other LITERAL verses (and please VERSE (S) not just one verse. It must be LITERAL , not FIGURATIVE.

I and others have provided DOZENS of literal verses. Which you NEVER comment on. Which you completely ignore. Your annihilationism heresy has been DEBUNKED.

Matt 25:41
Then also He will say to those on the left, 'Depart from Me, those being cursed, into the eternal fire, having been prepared for the devil and his angels.

Heb 10:29
Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

Mat 25:46
“And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matt 8:29 (SAME DESTINATION OF THE MORTAL MEN OF MATT 25:41)
“What do You want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have You come here to torture us before the appointed time?”

 

[cv5]

<this is figurative for ETERNITY and TORMENTED means PUNISHMENT evidenced by ALL other verses in both the New and Old Testament that say the wicked will:

PERISH/ DIE/ BE DESTROYED.


DB,

We have posted hundreds of verses to your one--what other LITERAL verses (and please VERSE (S) not just one verse. It must be LITERAL , not FIGURATIVE.

This passage is perfectly coherent, consistent, concordant, and congruent with ALL of the other passages that I have earlier posted. Annihilationism is a HERESY.

1 Thes 1:6-9
since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

 

[Laura798]

Hi everyone, OP here.

I think I have changed my view on eternal torture. It's what we in the West have mostly grown up on. It's what we learned since we were young. But after paying more attention to the Scripture and what it truly says, I think I am officially leaning more towards annihilation.

Praise the Lord, this is wonderful to hear, Radius! So many of us were in your shoes--for me it was simply a prayer to understand more of the Mystery of the Gospel--and then the scales fell off my eyes and I saw what had been in plain sight all the time!

 

[Laura798]

Are you JW?

Are you JW?

I asked, "Duckybill-are you like a bored 14 year old kid down in the basement somewhere? Your comments are so sophomoric."

Your response: "Are you a JW?"

I guess your response answers my question in the affirmative.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

9These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Yes, and this same "destruction" word ^ (G3639) is also used for that which occurs at the ARRIVAL of "the day of the Lord" per 1Th5:3 ... which even @ewq1938 would acknowledge is not referring to the commencement of the "Great White Throne judgment" point in the chronology (Rev20:11-15).

So, even if the 1Th5:3 verse (using this "destruction [G3639]" word) meant they "die" (sudden destruction, as in, "DIE" [as lost/unsaved persons] at that point--which I DO NOT believe this verse is saying that they "DIE suddenly"), even if it means "DIE," it would mean they go to "hell/hades" (or the "grave"), NOT at that point (being referred to in THIS 1Th5:3 text) immediately to "the lake of fire" / "GWTj" point... though certainly that will be eventually true of these persons.

"for when they may say, “Peace and security,” then sudden destruction [G3639] comes [on] them, as the travail [on] her who is with child, and they will not escape;" - 1Th5:3 (at the ARRIVAL of "the day of the Lord" time-period--which is at the INITIAL "birth PANG" [the ones Jesus spoke of])

 

[cv5]

Yes, and this same "destruction" word ^ (G3639) is also used for that which occurs at the ARRIVAL of "the day of the Lord" per 1Th5:3 ... which even @ewq1938 would acknowledge is not referring to the commencement of the "Great White Throne judgment" point in the chronology (Rev20:11-15).

So, even if the 1Th5:3 verse (using this "destruction [G3639]" word) meant they "die" (sudden destruction, as in, "DIE" [as lost/unsaved persons] at that point--which I DO NOT believe this verse is saying that they "DIE suddenly"), even if it means "DIE," it would mean they go to "hell/hades" (or the "grave"), NOT at that point (being referred to in THIS 1Th5:3 text) immediately to "the lake of fire" / "GWTj" point... though certainly that will be eventually true of these persons.

"for when they may say, “Peace and security,” then sudden destruction [G3639] comes [on] them, as the travail [on] her who is with child, and they will not escape;" - 1Th5:3 (at the ARRIVAL of "the day of the Lord" time-period--which is at the INITIAL "birth PANG" [the ones Jesus spoke of])

Thanks. Given what you have said, I think 2 Thes 1:6-9 nails it. The end of the heresy of annihilationism for those who are paying attention anyways.

Here is another supporting passage. Unassailable IMO.

Luke 12:4-5
And I say to you, My friends, you should not fear because of those killing the body and after these things not being able to do anything more abundantly. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear the One who has authority, after the killing, to cast (there is that word again) into Gehenna. Yes, I say to you, fear Him.

 

[arpon]

I am confused. there is difference between everlasting punishment and destruction right?

I and others have provided DOZENS of literal verses. Which you NEVER comment on. Which you completely ignore. Your annihilationism heresy has been DEBUNKED.

Matt 25:41
Then also He will say to those on the left, 'Depart from Me, those being cursed, into the eternal fire, having been prepared for the devil and his angels.

Heb 10:29
Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

Mat 25:46
“And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matt 8:29 (SAME DESTINATION OF THE MORTAL MEN OF MATT 25:41)
“What do You want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have You come here to torture us before the appointed time?”

m

 

[cv5]

Hi everyone, OP here.

I think I have changed my view on eternal torture. It's what we in the West have mostly grown up on. It's what we learned since we were young. But after paying more attention to the Scripture and what it truly says, I think I am officially leaning more towards annihilation.

I suggest you reconsider....

Luke 12:4-5
And I say to you, My friends, you should not fear because of those killing the body and after these things not being able to do anything more abundantly. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear the One who has authority, after the killing, to cast (there is that word again) into Gehenna. Yes, I say to you, fear Him.

1 Thes 1:6-9
since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

 

[cv5]

I am confused. there is difference between everlasting punishment and destruction right?

m

TDW is the Greek word study expert. Do a search of his posts and find out the accurate meaning in the Greek.

https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4687155

See the Greek and Interlinear on the function bar on Biblehub? Start using them.....

https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/1-9.htm

https://biblehub.com/text/luke/12-4.htm

https://biblehub.com/text/luke/12-5.htm

 

[Laura798]

I am confused. there is difference between everlasting punishment and destruction right?

m

No Arpon, these three all mean the same thing " Everlasting / Eternal + Fire / Punishment / Destruction.

 

[Laura798]

Arpon, if you do a search for Radius you will see that he has changed his position--praise God!

And by the way, that is a great question--yes, how could they be alive since Eternal Life is a GIFT and it's only given to the BELIEVER, not the unbeliever!

 

[Magenta]

I am confused. there is difference between everlasting punishment and destruction right?

m

The second death lasts forever after. Hence it is everlasting destruction/punishment.

There is no coming back from it.

Some will say ridiculous things like, it is not punishment if you are not aware of it.

LOL

Death has been used as an extreme and very feared form of punishment for century upon century.

Suddenly, poof! Oops, it is not punishment because the person is now dead and does not know they are dead???

Their punishment removed all consciousness and life from them, so we cannot call it punishment???

What can I say? The opposition is flimsy and non-sensical.

 

[cv5]

The second death lasts forever after. Hence it is everlasting destruction/punishment.

There is no coming back from it.

Some will say ridiculous things like, it is not punishment if you are not aware of it.

LOL

Death has been used as an extreme and very feared form of punishment for century upon century.

Suddenly, poof! Oops, it is not punishment because the person is now dead and does not know they are dead???

Their punishment removed all consciousness and life from them, so we cannot call it punishment???

What can I say? The opposition is flimsy and non-sensical.

Dead wrong lady. Pardon the pun...
Explain this passage. If indeed you are able.

Luke 12:4-5
And I say to you, My friends, you should not fear because of those killing the body and after these things not being able to do anything more abundantly. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear the One who has authority, after the killing, to cast (there is that word again) into Gehenna. Yes, I say to you, fear Him.

 

[cv5]

The second death lasts forever after. Hence it is everlasting destruction/punishment.

There is no coming back from it.

Some will say ridiculous things like, it is not punishment if you are not aware of it.

LOL

Death has been used as an extreme and very feared form of punishment for century upon century.

Suddenly, poof! Oops, it is not punishment because the person is now dead and does not know they are dead???

Their punishment removed all consciousness and life from them, so we cannot call it punishment???

What can I say? The opposition is flimsy and non-sensical.

Your limited, woefully erroneous notions of the definition of death differ from those of Jesus. I mean He should be the One defining these terms. Right?

I ask you....what in the world do YOU think is happening here???

John 5:25
Truly, truly, I tell you, the hour is coming and has now come when ***THE DEAD*** will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

 

[SaltwaterGirl]

Hi everyone, OP here.

I think I have changed my view on eternal torture. It's what we in the West have mostly grown up on. It's what we learned since we were young. But after paying more attention to the Scripture and what it truly says, I think I am officially leaning more towards annihilation.

HalleluYAH!

Those who believe in eternal torment haven’t a clue about the GRACE of our merciful Father.