What are you thoughts on Annihilation?
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Here you go. A reality check. Your glib, foppish pretentions just don't seem to fit in.
Matthew 8:29
“What do You want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have You come here to torture us before the appointed time?”
Revelation 20:10
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Matthew 13:49-50
So will it be at the end of the age: The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous, and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 8:29
“What do You want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have You come here to torture us before the appointed time?”
Revelation 20:10
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Matthew 13:49-50
So will it be at the end of the age: The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous, and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
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<she has the sentence of DEATH hanging over her head because of sin--it's the same meaning as 'dead man walking'
PROOF TEXTS: (and this is just in Romans Chapter 5--this message is everywhere in scripture!)
This is the SENTENCE OF DEATH that was pronounced on Adam. Note that Roman 5:16 & 18 say JUDGEMENT AROSE FROM ONE TRANSGRESSION [Adams'} RESULTING IN CONDEMNATION. What was the condemnation--DEATH ETERNALLY (that is for those without Christ)
"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come."--Romans 5:14
"But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many."--Romans 5:15
Romans 5:16
"The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification."
Romans 5:18-19
So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Adam-And-Jesus-Christ
PROOF TEXTS: (and this is just in Romans Chapter 5--this message is everywhere in scripture!)
This is the SENTENCE OF DEATH that was pronounced on Adam. Note that Roman 5:16 & 18 say JUDGEMENT AROSE FROM ONE TRANSGRESSION [Adams'} RESULTING IN CONDEMNATION. What was the condemnation--DEATH ETERNALLY (that is for those without Christ)
"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come."--Romans 5:14
"But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many."--Romans 5:15
Romans 5:16
"The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification."
Romans 5:18-19
So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Adam-And-Jesus-Christ
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Right.
This is what Romans 5:12 says, "Wherefore, as by one man [the] sin entered into the world, and [the] death by [means of the] sin; and so [the] death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" IOW, it didn't wait some 900+ years to go into effect (when Adam physically died).
When Jesus said (in John 14:6), "I am the way, the truth, AND THE LIFE: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me"... it makes me wonder why some people seem to conflate THIS ^ with what the natural man [unsaved man] has, who is alive / living (i.e. walking around on this earth like everyone else is)... when they make the argument about the GWTj when "death" and "hell/hades" DELIVERED UP the DEAD and then they are "cast into the lake of fire".
This is what Romans 5:12 says, "Wherefore, as by one man [the] sin entered into the world, and [the] death by [means of the] sin; and so [the] death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" IOW, it didn't wait some 900+ years to go into effect (when Adam physically died).
When Jesus said (in John 14:6), "I am the way, the truth, AND THE LIFE: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me"... it makes me wonder why some people seem to conflate THIS ^ with what the natural man [unsaved man] has, who is alive / living (i.e. walking around on this earth like everyone else is)... when they make the argument about the GWTj when "death" and "hell/hades" DELIVERED UP the DEAD and then they are "cast into the lake of fire".
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Ad hominem: Attacking a person's character or motivations rather than a position or argument.
Appealing to the emotions rather than to logic or reason.
Appealing to the emotions rather than to logic or reason.
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Ad hominem: Attacking a person's character or motivations rather than a position or argument.
Appealing to the emotions rather than to logic or reason.
Appealing to the emotions rather than to logic or reason.
Mat 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
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If the devil is "cast into" the lake of fire only at the GWTj point (keeping in mind the above-mentioned Rev20:10 verse)... and scripture says that "the eternal fire" was what was "having been prepared for the devil" (and his angels), then what does this say about what else Matt25:41 states (about persons who Jesus will call "those being CURSED")?
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@cv5 's Post #971... I guess we were thinking of this same verse at the same time!
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@cv5 's Post #971... I guess we were thinking of this same verse at the same time!
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Radius--that is figurative language as evidenced by the fact that we know that the lake of fire is part of the VISION John sees--John tells us four times in Revelation that the lake of fire IS THE SECOND DEATH. Torment in this context means Punishment. It is saying the punishment is eternal.
The greek word torment is Basanos: a touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
The greek word torment is Basanos: a touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
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Just to note... some commentaries point out that at that time, it is believed that they called planets "wandering stars"... for example, "Barnes' Notes on the Bible" says,
[quoting]
"Wandering stars - The word rendered "wandering" (πλανῆται planētai) is that from which we have derived the word "planet." It properly means one who wanders about; a wanderer; and was given by the ancients to planets because they seemed to wander about the heavens, now forward and now backward among the ether stars, without any fixed law. - Pliny, Nat. Hist. ii. 6. Cicero, however, who saw that they were governed by certain established laws, says that the name seemed to be given to them without reason. - De Nat. Deo. ii. 20. So far as the "words" used are concerned, the reference may be either to the planets, properly so called, or to comets, or to "ignes fatui," or meteors. The proper idea is that of stars that have no regular motions, or that do not move in fixed and regular orbits. The laws of the planetary motions were not then understood, and their movements seemed to be irregular and capricious; and hence, if the reference is to them, they might be regarded as not an unapt illustration of these teachers. The sense seems to be, that the aid which we derive from the stars, as in navigation, is in the fact that they are regular in their places and movements, and thus the mariner can determine his position. If they had no regular places and movements, they would be useless to the seaman. So with false religious teachers. No dependence can be placed on them. It is not uncommon to compare a religious teacher to a star, Revelation 1:16; Revelation 2:1. Compare Revelation 22:16."
[end quoting; underline mine]
[quoting]
"Wandering stars - The word rendered "wandering" (πλανῆται planētai) is that from which we have derived the word "planet." It properly means one who wanders about; a wanderer; and was given by the ancients to planets because they seemed to wander about the heavens, now forward and now backward among the ether stars, without any fixed law. - Pliny, Nat. Hist. ii. 6. Cicero, however, who saw that they were governed by certain established laws, says that the name seemed to be given to them without reason. - De Nat. Deo. ii. 20. So far as the "words" used are concerned, the reference may be either to the planets, properly so called, or to comets, or to "ignes fatui," or meteors. The proper idea is that of stars that have no regular motions, or that do not move in fixed and regular orbits. The laws of the planetary motions were not then understood, and their movements seemed to be irregular and capricious; and hence, if the reference is to them, they might be regarded as not an unapt illustration of these teachers. The sense seems to be, that the aid which we derive from the stars, as in navigation, is in the fact that they are regular in their places and movements, and thus the mariner can determine his position. If they had no regular places and movements, they would be useless to the seaman. So with false religious teachers. No dependence can be placed on them. It is not uncommon to compare a religious teacher to a star, Revelation 1:16; Revelation 2:1. Compare Revelation 22:16."
[end quoting; underline mine]
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You didn't prove that "day" means a calendar day. "Day" is used many times in the Bible to refer to a long period of time as well.
Here is an example of Zechariah explaining several events that will happen in a period of time which he refers to as a "day".
(You don't have to read the whole passage, but take note of the bolded text)
Summer AND Winter both occur within this "day" (described throughout the chapter). Since summer and winter are 6 months apart, this usage of "day" cannot mean a 24- hour calendar day. This meaning is used variously throughout the Bible.
So in reference to Genesis 3:17, you'd have to prove that it means a calendar day (24-hour day) rather than a season of time
(Adams lifetime) before it can legitimately be used to support your theory of the cause of spiritual death, physical death, and annihilation.
Here is an example of Zechariah explaining several events that will happen in a period of time which he refers to as a "day".
(You don't have to read the whole passage, but take note of the bolded text)
“Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you. For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him! In that day there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle. For it will be a unique day which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light. And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea;
it will be in summer as well as in winter. And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only one, and His name the only one. All the land will be changed into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem; but Jerusalem will rise and remain on its site from Benjamin’s Gate as far as the place of the First Gate to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s wine presses. People will live in it, and there will no longer be a curse, for Jerusalem will dwell in security. Now this will be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the peoples who have gone to war against Jerusalem; their flesh will rot while they stand on their feet, and their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongue will rot in their mouth. It will come about in that day that a great panic from the LORD will fall on them; and they will seize one another’s hand, and the hand of one will be lifted against the hand of another. Judah also will fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the surrounding nations will be gathered, gold and silver and garments in great abundance. So also like this plague will be the plague on the horse, the mule, the camel, the donkey and all the cattle that will be in those camps. Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths. And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them. If the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will fall on them; it will be the plague with which the LORD smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths. This will be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths. There will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, “HOLY TO THE LORD.” And the cooking pots in the LORD’S house will be like the bowls before the altar. Every cooking pot in Jerusalem and in Judah will be holy to the LORD of hosts; and all who sacrifice will come and take of them and boil in them. And there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts in that day.” (Zechariah 14:1–21)
it will be in summer as well as in winter. And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only one, and His name the only one. All the land will be changed into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem; but Jerusalem will rise and remain on its site from Benjamin’s Gate as far as the place of the First Gate to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s wine presses. People will live in it, and there will no longer be a curse, for Jerusalem will dwell in security. Now this will be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the peoples who have gone to war against Jerusalem; their flesh will rot while they stand on their feet, and their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongue will rot in their mouth. It will come about in that day that a great panic from the LORD will fall on them; and they will seize one another’s hand, and the hand of one will be lifted against the hand of another. Judah also will fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the surrounding nations will be gathered, gold and silver and garments in great abundance. So also like this plague will be the plague on the horse, the mule, the camel, the donkey and all the cattle that will be in those camps. Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths. And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them. If the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will fall on them; it will be the plague with which the LORD smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths. This will be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths. There will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, “HOLY TO THE LORD.” And the cooking pots in the LORD’S house will be like the bowls before the altar. Every cooking pot in Jerusalem and in Judah will be holy to the LORD of hosts; and all who sacrifice will come and take of them and boil in them. And there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts in that day.” (Zechariah 14:1–21)
Summer AND Winter both occur within this "day" (described throughout the chapter). Since summer and winter are 6 months apart, this usage of "day" cannot mean a 24- hour calendar day. This meaning is used variously throughout the Bible.
So in reference to Genesis 3:17, you'd have to prove that it means a calendar day (24-hour day) rather than a season of time
(Adams lifetime) before it can legitimately be used to support your theory of the cause of spiritual death, physical death, and annihilation.
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Interesting read, thank you (I did read your whole post). The same reasoning can likewise be used with the word forever/eternal as in relation to eternal torment (not the eternality of God), because multiple places throughout Scripture the word is clearly meant to convey no more than "until God's purpose is achieved," or an indeterminate span of time, the end of which is the same: God's purpose is achieved.
You mentioned a while back that the death spoken of most in the Bible is the first death, the death of the physical body, and it is true that there is a lot of that death written about, for as the patriarchs and kings and prophets and judges etc died one by one, generation after generation, each was recorded. However, the Book as a whole could be said to be more about spiritual death, that is, the walking death we were born into as a result of one man's sin, and what is required (being born again through the washing of blood, something which, if taken literally as people like to claim is how they receive Scripture, brings visons of Stephen King's "Carrie" to mind) to overcome this life.
Since believers are said to never die, when death, the first death, the physical death of the believer happens, it cannot truly be death, even though it is called that. (Jesus said we would never die.) We are all born dead to God. We all pass out of this life. People have no trouble believing that when anything else dies, it is simply gone forever, but somehow that ability flies out the window when it comes to the life and death of man. I suspect pride is the culprit. Man is no more than grass, and God is no respecter of persons. Man likes to think otherwise.
A person being born again by grace through faith in the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ is the only way one attains to life ever after. Those who are not covered by this grace, the blood of Christ's sacrifice on their behalf, those who have rejected God and God's plan of redemption, pass into the second death... an end that is consistently described as perishing and total destruction throughout Scripture.
You mentioned a while back that the death spoken of most in the Bible is the first death, the death of the physical body, and it is true that there is a lot of that death written about, for as the patriarchs and kings and prophets and judges etc died one by one, generation after generation, each was recorded. However, the Book as a whole could be said to be more about spiritual death, that is, the walking death we were born into as a result of one man's sin, and what is required (being born again through the washing of blood, something which, if taken literally as people like to claim is how they receive Scripture, brings visons of Stephen King's "Carrie" to mind) to overcome this life.
Since believers are said to never die, when death, the first death, the physical death of the believer happens, it cannot truly be death, even though it is called that. (Jesus said we would never die.) We are all born dead to God. We all pass out of this life. People have no trouble believing that when anything else dies, it is simply gone forever, but somehow that ability flies out the window when it comes to the life and death of man. I suspect pride is the culprit. Man is no more than grass, and God is no respecter of persons. Man likes to think otherwise.
A person being born again by grace through faith in the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ is the only way one attains to life ever after. Those who are not covered by this grace, the blood of Christ's sacrifice on their behalf, those who have rejected God and God's plan of redemption, pass into the second death... an end that is consistently described as perishing and total destruction throughout Scripture.
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I propose your Zechariah interpretation is not plausible for the following reasons:
God meant by "day" a 24 hour cycle because He defines it within the immediate context of the writing:
Genesis 1:5
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.”
Adam would have understood day as the time during each 24 hour period with sunlight, which is why God told Adam he would die that day. Adam knew absolutely nothing about Zechariah and his writings.
God is not the author of confusion. I find it hard to believe He would give Adam unclear and ambiguous expectations.
Furthermore, we can rule out "day" meaning 1,000 years to Adam because Adam's age did not surpass 1,000 years. So a God Day did not occur within Adam's lifetime.
2 Peter 3:8
“But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.”
Genesis 5:5
And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.”
In conclusion, the immediate context of Genesis 2:17 proves that where the word "day" is used, it is referencing the time in a 24 hour period that contains sunlight(Genesis 1:5).
When God told Adam, "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" Adam would have understood that as the time with sunlight.
Again, what you should be seeing here is that Adam died spiritually in the day (24 hour period containing sunlight) he ate the fruit, lived physically until he was 930, and was not separated from God
God meant by "day" a 24 hour cycle because He defines it within the immediate context of the writing:
Genesis 1:5
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.”
Adam would have understood day as the time during each 24 hour period with sunlight, which is why God told Adam he would die that day. Adam knew absolutely nothing about Zechariah and his writings.
God is not the author of confusion. I find it hard to believe He would give Adam unclear and ambiguous expectations.
Furthermore, we can rule out "day" meaning 1,000 years to Adam because Adam's age did not surpass 1,000 years. So a God Day did not occur within Adam's lifetime.
2 Peter 3:8
“But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.”
Genesis 5:5
And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.”
In conclusion, the immediate context of Genesis 2:17 proves that where the word "day" is used, it is referencing the time in a 24 hour period that contains sunlight(Genesis 1:5).
When God told Adam, "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" Adam would have understood that as the time with sunlight.
Again, what you should be seeing here is that Adam died spiritually in the day (24 hour period containing sunlight) he ate the fruit, lived physically until he was 930, and was not separated from God