What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

[cv5]

You do realize that an appeal to majority is a logical fallacy?

Not much different than supposing Catholics must be right because they outnumber any other denomination.

No doubt the views of the other side get misrepresented often also.

You know, like being told we do not believe the Bible when the reality is we reject a man-made tradition.

A rule nobody can give us the origin of: it cannot be a parable because real people are named.

Matthew 13:34 Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable.

Mark 4:34 He did not say anything to them without using a parable. But when he was alone with his own disciples, he explained everything.

Matthew 13:13 This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

Mark 4:10 When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables.

The Calvinist view puts forth that God torments forever after those who
refuse to make a choice that was never given to them to make in the
first place. How anyone can see that as loving, just, or fair is beyond me.

Consider also that Paul never mentioned the word hell and he told us to follow his example, assuring us he had given us the full council of God straight from Jesus. Paul said we should do as He did, and how many times in all his books (28% of the NT) did he preach eternal conscious torment via hellfire damnation? Did he ever even use the word hell? No, he did not. Paul, who claimed he was caught up into heaven and given the Gospel directly by Jesus, that all men would be judged according to his gospel, that he had declared to people the whole counsel of God, that he kept back nothing profitable from the people he taught, and that he was the apostle to the gentiles... never once used the word hell. Paul uses the Greek word "Hades" in 1 Corinthians 15:55, where it is translated "grave." (KJV) O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? In Galatians 1:8, he says: But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Totally disagree with your conclusion. The Scriptural content and force indicating an eternal black burning abode that will serve as the destination for unredeemed men and unredeemable angels is vast and overwhelming. Fancy Greek work studies are not even necessary.

Mat 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Not a parable folks....just the facts and truth. This is indeed everlasting fire GEHENNA FIRE, PREPARED for everlasting beings....the devil and his angels.

What is this passage exactly? It is PROPHECY.... infallible, inevitable prophecy. What else is it? A prophecy of JUDGEMENT. What else? A passing of SENTENCE upon the condemned.

2Pe 2:17 (Mortal men who await condemnation in Ghenna the lake of fire)
These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them.

Jude 12:13-14 (Mortal men who await condemnation in Ghenna the lake of fire)
These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; 13raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

Rev 20:10
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Matthew 23:15
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you traverse the sea and the dry land to make one convert, and whenever it may happen, you make him twofold more a son of Gehenna than yourselves.

Matt 23:33
Serpents! Offspring of vipers! How shall you escape from the sentence of Gehenna?

 

[cv5]

Lucy,

What arguments do you not believe? We have repeatedly used numerous literal verses that says the 'wages of sin is death", the unbelievers "perish" John 3:16, the wicked are "destroyed"

You can randomly open up the new testament from Acts onward (Jesus spoke in figurative language--by his own admisstion) and see over and over and OVER again, that DEATH and DESTRUCTION is the end of man. The old testament is replete with verses saying LITERALLY that the end of the wicked is DESTRUCTION.

Please show me just one LITERAL verse that says Eternal Conscious Torment is the end of man. IMPORTANT: It must be a literal verse, NOT figurative, e.g. 'eternal' fire/tormented day and night forever and ever...'where the worm dieth not--ALL of those use FIGURATIVE Language.

And do you not understand that you are in fact DENYING Christ paid the penalty by His death on the cross--that He died in our PLACE?

Do none of you understand this very foundational truth of the gospel?

You ARE IN FACT saying he is or will be burning for eternity if THAT is the punishment for sin.

You want literal...there you go....

Mat 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

 

[rayzor]

Lucy,

What arguments do you not believe? We have repeatedly used numerous literal verses that says the 'wages of sin is death", the unbelievers "perish" John 3:16, the wicked are "destroyed"

You can randomly open up the new testament from Acts onward (Jesus spoke in figurative language--by his own admisstion) and see over and over and OVER again, that DEATH and DESTRUCTION is the end of man. The old testament is replete with verses saying LITERALLY that the end of the wicked is DESTRUCTION.

Please show me just one LITERAL verse that says Eternal Conscious Torment is the end of man. IMPORTANT: It must be a literal verse, NOT figurative, e.g. 'eternal' fire/tormented day and night forever and ever...'where the worm dieth not--ALL of those use FIGURATIVE Language.

And do you not understand that you are in fact DENYING Christ paid the penalty by His death on the cross--that He died in our PLACE?

Do none of you understand this very foundational truth of the gospel?

You ARE IN FACT saying he is or will be burning for eternity if THAT is the punishment for sin.

'wages of sin is death", the unbelievers "perish" John 3:16, the wicked are "destroyed"
No no we have Isaiah 64:24 same in Daniel Revelation
u see they wake up and r lonely...Why not just say!!! god you are wrong in your judgement against the wicked.Jesus said sin is a illness,,,well if so,,,do you take the ill and put them in a torture chamber?,,,even forever!!!!.I hate saying this but the wicked seem to think the bible is god!!!!!!...And so how dare they! challenge that piece of wood and ink.

 

[Runningman]

It's irrelevant if it contradicts the context you're pulling that verse from. Romans 5 repeatedly described physical death. The death of Adam is topologically linked to the death of Jesus. You don't believe Jesus spiritually died, do you?


Don't use quotation marks unless you are actually quoting the Bible (especially God).
This is what He said:

“...in the day (yom) that you eat from it you will surely die.”” (Genesis 2:17)​

(Hebrew) "yom" has about 9 possible meanings. You'd have to demonstrate, contextually, how you know Moses intended "a 24-hour calendar day" when he wrote this before you can effectively use this as a premise for your position.
Also, "in" could translate as "by" (as in "on account of").

It's not really relevant...but we have no idea how old Adam was when he ate the fruit.


God can alter/bypass the natural process of death. He has the authority to take his own life, apart from the wages of sin.

““No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down,
and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”” (John 10:18)​

Again God can bypass/alter the natural process of death by His own power. He has authority over life AND death.
Enoch and Elijah never died (Gen 5:24, 2 King 2:11), though they both sinned (Rome 3:23). So apparently the tree of life is not the way to avoid death.


It seems like a theory worth exploring. But until you have a solid Biblical explanation for that, it can't be used to support a controversial debate.
My answer, for now, is that they wouldn't be able to eat from the tree of life because “what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? Or what harmony has Christ with Belial...what agreement has the temple of God with idols?" (2 Corinthians 6:14–16)

Consider this:
If the tree of life can give anyone eternal life (even sinners). What would happen if someone ate from the tree of life after blaspheming the Holy Spirit?
I would argue that they would not have eternal life in them because the one who blasphemes Him is guilty of an eternal sin. Eating from the tree of life would have no reversing effect. "Eternal life" is defined as "knowing God" according to John 17, not eating some fruit.

I'm not going to address all of that, but you got most of that wrong.

The correct way to read the Bible is to read beyond the immediate context, factoring in numerous sources from scriptures, to contribute the the whole, well-rounded, exegesis of scriptures.

This isn't my opinion, everyone agrees with me on this.

Furthermore, it's acceptable to paraphrase. Quotes are optional, albeit unnecessary, but they alert you to the fact someone is being quoted. I cited the Bible verse in immediate proximity of my paraphrasing.

You're nitpicking at this point to protect the false and heretical doctrine of eternal torment.

 

[Gideon300]

Your position has the same issue:

How is it possible for people being tortured forever to have different degrees of punishment?

It is possible. Some people are have done worse things in this life than others. God judges unbelievers according to their works in this life. The most wicked are the false Christians: "Jude 1: 12 & 13… These men are hidden reefs in your love feasts, shamelessly feasting with you but shepherding only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried along by the wind; fruitless trees in autumn, twice dead after being uprooted. They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

It makes no sense to reserve a place "forever" if those people are to be annihilated.

 

[Runningman]

It is possible. Some people are have done worse things in this life than others. God judges unbelievers according to their works in this life. The most wicked are the false Christians: "Jude 1: 12 & 13… These men are hidden reefs in your love feasts, shamelessly feasting with you but shepherding only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried along by the wind; fruitless trees in autumn, twice dead after being uprooted. They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

It makes no sense to reserve a place "forever" if those people are to be annihilated.

If we take this literally, then the blackest darkness for a wandering star would be irrelevant since a star has it's own light source. That would make being in darkness irrelevant, hardly a punishment. Jude 1:12-13 is highly metaphorical and symbolic.

 

[Gideon300]

I'm not going to address all of that, but you got most of that wrong.

The correct way to read the Bible is to read beyond the immediate context, factoring in numerous sources from scriptures, to contribute the the whole, well-rounded, exegesis of scriptures.

This isn't my opinion, everyone agrees with me on this.

Furthermore, it's acceptable to paraphrase. Quotes are optional, albeit unnecessary, but they alert you to the fact someone is being quoted. I cited the Bible verse in immediate proximity of my paraphrasing.

You're nitpicking at this point to protect the false and heretical doctrine of eternal torment.

Jude chapter 1:

…12These men are hidden reefs in your love feasts, shamelessly feasting with you but shepherding only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried along by the wind; fruitless trees in autumn, twice dead after being uprooted. 13They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

Now if it read, "until they are annihilated" I'd agree with you. It reads, "forever", the same word that is used of people who do the will of God (1 John 2:17).

 

[Gideon300]

If we take this literally, then the blackest darkness for a wandering star would be irrelevant since a star has it's own light source. That would make being in darkness irrelevant, hardly a punishment. Jude 1:12-13 is highly metaphorical and symbolic.

Have you not heard of black holes? Jude knew nothing about them either. They are only "wandering stars" in this life. Black holes are stars that have collapsed in on themselves. So the metaphor works. Forever.

Also, the born again are said to shine like stars. Obviously this does not apply the false believers that Jude condemns.

 

[Gideon300]

Really???

So - no one who lives during the millennium will be saved???

When will their Judgment be?

The judgement for believers is different. It is the "Bema" judgement. In ancient Greece, this was where the prizes were given out. The Great White Throne is where sinners are judged.

 

[rayzor]

I'm not going to address all of that, but you got most of that wrong.

The correct way to read the Bible is to read beyond the immediate context, factoring in numerous sources from scriptures, to contribute the the whole, well-rounded, exegesis of scriptures.

This isn't my opinion, everyone agrees with me on this.

Furthermore, it's acceptable to paraphrase. Quotes are optional, albeit unnecessary, but they alert you to the fact someone is being quoted. I cited the Bible verse in immediate proximity of my paraphrasing.

You're nitpicking at this point to protect the false and heretical doctrine of eternal torment.

Man you are like crazy wrong!!!!! worships of academia!!!At least i know thaaat me like a greek seeks to know about god rather then be a part of god.Because you see the unclean eyes in us seek to be our own god.In context out context, in totlity or partialy by those that do right and those that do wrong all thing things work together.One teacher: says the scriptures that's jesus.Yes study to show that you know god,,but learn,,ok? the first tree was the devil the second is god

 

[Runningman]

Have you not heard of black holes? Jude knew nothing about them either. They are only "wandering stars" in this life. Black holes are stars that have collapsed in on themselves. So the metaphor works. Forever.

Also, the born again are said to shine like stars. Obviously this does not apply the false believers that Jude condemns.

But can you prove that stars or black holes last forever?

 

[Runningman]

Man you are like crazy wrong!!!!! worships of academia!!!At least i know thaaat me like a greek seeks to know about god rather then be a part of god.Because you see the unclean eyes in us seek to be our own god.In context out context, in totlity or partialy by those that do right and those that do wrong all thing things work together.One teacher: says the scriptures that's jesus.Yes study to show that you know god,,but learn,,ok? the first tree was the devil the second is god

I seemed to have upset you, I apologize for that. I don't know how what I said that was offensive, nor did I intend to be offensive. I am just having a casual Bible discussion to debunk a false doctrine.

I hope you'll find a way to forgive me. Please let me know if there is anything I can do to help you such as pray with you or answer any questions to better clarify my position. 🙏🏻

 

[rayzor]

Have you not heard of black holes? Jude knew nothing about them either. They are only "wandering stars" in this life. Black holes are stars that have collapsed in on themselves. So the metaphor works. Forever.

Also, the born again are said to shine like stars. Obviously this does not apply the false believers that Jude condemns.

yap um in black wholes time stops because without the movement of light time stops.I'm speaking as nicklation = secular person. Make me think There's 1 that's 86 = evil just so happens that is the first 3 numbers of the speed of light.How do we know that the black wholes are there?Because of the absence of light in those spots.

 

[rayzor]

I seemed to have upset you, I apologize for that. I don't know how what I said that was offensive, nor did I intend to be offensive. I am just having a casual Bible discussion to debunk a false doctrine.

I hope you'll find a way to forgive me. Please let me know if there is anything I can do to help you such as pray with you or answer any questions to better clarify my position. 🙏🏻

Please offend but learn,Deep down people get angry for one of two reasons because the speaker is being good or because the speaker is being evil.,,,.Jesus is the devil,,,how do i know this? because he became sin also he is the the first to die before the foundation of the world.He is also the first to die to sin = pride and pride really is the love that is the worship of self even at the expense of all eles. yea i'm not right with god so if it's ok with you and god fast for me.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

TheDivineWatermark said:
... but it doesn't ONLY mean that.

^ In this case, they mean "the OPPOSITE of 'taken [G3880]'"... but in the case of when Jesus was "taken" ['took' G3880] by someone (from their perspective) to "negative" ends (i.e. "arrest" and eventual "crucifixion"), it was NOT as a "companion" in the sense you've shown in your point / posts.

That was not a negative taking.

TheDivineWatermark said:
Matthew 27:27 -

27 Then the soldiers of the governor took [G3880] Jesus into the common hall, and gathered unto him the whole band of soldiers. 28 And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe. 29 And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews! 30 And they spit upon him, and took the reed, and smote him on the head. 31 And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him.

[as I said, it depends on WHO is DOING the taking, and TO WHAT ENDS (i.e. the reapers at the time of Jesus' Second Coming to the earth, for example)]

That was not a negative taking.

What I hear you saying is that these people will be rewarded in heaven for their "GOOD DEEDS" and be told by the Lord "Well done, thou GOOD and FAITHFUL SERVANT"... and that after these events took place (as described in Matt27:27-31) the apostles PRAISED them for their virtuous service [ex. Acts3:14-15, etc]... is that how you see it??

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

he is the the first to die before the foundation of the world.

Nope. The text states "FROM [G575 apo] the foundation of the world" (same time sin entered)... not "BEFORE [G4253 pro] the foundation of the world".

Yes, there is a difference. = )



-- https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/13-8.htm "...having been slain FROM the foundation of the world."

 

[Diakonos]

I'm not going to address all of that, but you got most of that wrong.

A parry without a riposte? It's a shame people don't know how to wield the sword.
The art is truly lost if our arguments are reduced to "I won't respond, but you are wrong". Whether you address it or not, what I have written is fixed unless it is uprooted by the Word (Matt 15:13). Your silence is telling (Lk 21:15).

You're nitpicking at this point

On the contrary, I have looked into this more closely than many.

"rightly dividing the word of truth" (2 Tim 2:15)​

If you had used clear passages of Scripture instead of some vague reference to the tree of life (which you admitted to not comprehending in post# 726), then I wouldn't have to get so technical to expose an error. Assumptions don't support arguments, premises do; You have to establish common ground (premises) before making a sound argument for a controversial position. For this same reason, I don't discuss much eschatology with an individual unless the identity of Israel is first agreed on. This is true for all doctrines. The fundamentals must first be agreed on before a meaningful discussion of the fringe doctrines can take place.

The correct way to read the Bible is to read beyond the immediate context

“learn not to go beyond what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant.” (1 Corinthians 4:6)​

Does it make sense to use a verse that fits other contexts (that helps your position), but doesn't fit the context you took the verse from? Why would you appeal to it at? To use a verse correctly, it must agree with its original context...THEN it may be tested to see if it is compatible with other contexts. All the NT writers used their OT quotes in their original contexts to convey their more-developed doctrines to the church. This is because an application of a verse in its original context will never contradict its application in another context. Doctrines don't exist independently; they are extensions of other doctrines.

 

[Gardenias]

Please offend but learn,Deep down people get angry for one of two reasons because the speaker is being good or because the speaker is being evil.,,,.Jesus is the devil,,,how do i know this? because he became sin also he is the the first to die before the foundation of the world.He is also the first to die to sin = pride and pride really is the love that is the worship of self even at the expense of all eles. yea i'm nciousot right with god so if it's ok with you and god fast for me.

I will also fast and pray for you if that's OK.
Your soul is precious and God loves you Ramos or Ramon.

 

[rayzor]

Nope. The text states "FROM [G575 apo] the foundation of the world" (same time sin entered)... not "BEFORE [G4253 pro] the foundation of the world".

Yes, there is a difference. = )



-- https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/13-8.htm "...having been slain FROM the foundation of the world."

TOOLS

1Pe 1:20 KJV note i change the word in read because that is the proper word,
Who amen!, was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
I suspect this is a bible version issues

 

[Magenta]

Jesus is the devil,,,how do i know this? because he became sin also he is the the first to die before the foundation of the world.He is also the first to die to sin = pride and pride really is the love that is the worship of self even at the expense of all eles. yea i'm not right with god so if it's ok with you and god fast for me.