What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

ewq1938 · Oct 25, 2021

Yeah, one of many logical fallacies used by eternal torture people because they have nothing valid in their doctrine or against ours so have to use the Ad Hominem route which predictable and immature.

At least we have the truth and facts on our side, overwhelming amount of supportive scriptures, support from scholars and language tools/dictionaries etc etc.

Laura798 · Oct 25, 2021

ewq1938 said:

I was raised Southern Baptist--they were toning down the hell fire and brimstone around that time--it came across more like a fairy tale--like there was a big bonfire with people roasting weenies and putting silly notes on Satan's back, that said 'kick me'--however those pranks didn't work so well as they paper would quickly burn up...and the weenies got a little charred.

However, I have read awful stories from the past of people living lives of terrible anxiety thinking their unbelieving loved ones would end up there--or were already there. So it messed up the believers lives too. I cant imagine how it was for the children hearing these stories of burning forever and ever--imagine a small child thinking they might go there if they were bad--or their mom or dad was there suffering forever.

Have you ever burned your finger? Can you imagine your whole body aflame and suffering the pain of that for all eternity? That our good and loving father in heaven would be so diabolical as to give a second eternal life (which is never mentioned in scripture) to the unbeliever and give them a new body that continued to regenerate just so they could be in eternal agony?

TheDivineWatermark · Oct 25, 2021

ewq1938 said:

But that's what the Greek says... "unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]"...

... in each of the 21x this phrase is used...

... and it always means the same thing, both within the book of Revelation and outside of that book where it's found used in the epistles also.

"and THEY shall be tormented day and night unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]"... as verse 10 clearly puts it.

As to your thoughts: "because it's too much punishment for the crimes/sins."

Consider the following (which idea was also alluded to by the OP video speaker):

Even the OP vid speaker alluded to something along these lines:

[quoting] Erwin Lutzer (from his book "What Happens One Minute After You Die?"):

The problem that some people have with the doctrine of hell is that the punishment does not seem to fit the crime; it’s “overkill.” Yet how can we understand this doctrine to make some sense of it?
[...]

But first of all, it will be based on what people did with what they knew.

Secondly, could I remind you today that those who do not know Christ as Savior are eternally guilty. Eternally guilty. You see, if it was possible for human suffering to somehow compensate for our sin, eventually hell would no longer exist. People would have “paid for their sins.” But may I say it very clearly that there is no human suffering that can pay for so much as a single sin. The only Person who could suffer on behalf of sin whose sacrifice and suffering was received is Jesus Christ because He was God and therefore He is able to give us the righteousness of God which we need to get into heaven. But no human suffering can pay for sin.
Remember the words of the song, “Could my tears forever flow, could my zeal no respite know. All for sin could not atone, Thou must save and Thou alone.”

I think that oftentimes also we overlook the seriousness of our sin. You know, we say to ourselves, “Well, what I have done is not that big a deal.” Well, wait a moment. Wait a moment. It is a big deal because it was done in the presence of God and all sin is sin against Him.

[end quoting E. Lutzer]

Laura798 · Oct 25, 2021

The How and When of Eternal Torment Invaded the Church (to read full article clcik on the link below)

"It shocks me to hear people argue that the doctrine of Hell has been the definitive belief of Christendom since the days of the New Testament. Such a claim demonstrates a fundamental ignorance of Church history and is a testament to how extensively St. Augustine’s doctrine influenced the orthodox church.

The idea of eternal torment comes primarily from Greek thought — a merging of mythology and the ramification of belief in an immortal soul.

For 5 centuries, Christian doctrine remained unaffected by Hell until St. Augustine forcibly inserted it into orthodoxy, using a combination of power and violence to ensure it’s survival. Since that time, we’ve seen the gradual evolution of Christian doctrine in and around this concept, until today, the average believer has no idea that the concept of eternal torment isn’t even Biblical.

This doctrine of Hell has been used for centuries to control the masses with fear. Today, it prevents the world, both Christian and non-Christian alike, from seeing a loving Father."--Julie Ferwerda

https://medium.com/@BrazenChurch/ho...-torment-invaded-church-doctrine-7610e6b70815

godskidisfree · Oct 25, 2021

ewq1938 said:

death does not mean a physical death but a spiritual death being separated from god. god loves his children and he wants us all and he knows our hearts and revelation 3:20 says god is at the door of our hearts knocking to come in. until our last breath he is knocking, out of all his creation us people his children are his most precious.

cv5 · Oct 25, 2021

Laura798 said:

Still waiting to hear back from you on those questions that I posted, namely:
#763
#774
#791
#792
#804
Yes they are gnarly yes they are thorny yes they are tough. Believe me, I can understand why you're ignoring them....

cv5 · Oct 25, 2021

Laura798 said:

The How and When of Eternal Torment Invaded the Church (to read full article clcik on the link below)

"It shocks me to hear people argue that the doctrine of Hell has been the definitive belief of Christendom since the days of the New Testament. Such a claim demonstrates a fundamental ignorance of Church history and is a testament to how extensively St. Augustine’s doctrine influenced the orthodox church.

The idea of eternal torment comes primarily from Greek thought — a merging of mythology and the ramification of belief in an immortal soul.

For 5 centuries, Christian doctrine remained unaffected by Hell until St. Augustine forcibly inserted it into orthodoxy, using a combination of power and violence to ensure it’s survival. Since that time, we’ve seen the gradual evolution of Christian doctrine in and around this concept, until today, the average believer has no idea that the concept of eternal torment isn’t even Biblical.

This doctrine of Hell has been used for centuries to control the masses with fear. Today, it prevents the world, both Christian and non-Christian alike, from seeing a loving Father."--Julie Ferwerda

https://medium.com/@BrazenChurch/ho...-torment-invaded-church-doctrine-7610e6b70815

Still waiting for you to reply to my inquiries and questions. Cat got your tongue?

cv5 · Oct 25, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

But that's what the Greek says... "unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]"...

... in each of the 21x this phrase is used...

... and it always means the same thing, both within the book of Revelation and outside of that book where it's found used in the epistles also.

"and THEY shall be tormented day and night unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]"... as verse 10 clearly puts it.

As to your thoughts: "because it's too much punishment for the crimes/sins."

Consider the following (which idea was also alluded to by the OP video speaker):

Even the OP vid speaker alluded to something along these lines:

[quoting] Erwin Lutzer (from his book "What Happens One Minute After You Die?"):

The problem that some people have with the doctrine of hell is that the punishment does not seem to fit the crime; it’s “overkill.” Yet how can we understand this doctrine to make some sense of it?
[...]

But first of all, it will be based on what people did with what they knew.

Secondly, could I remind you today that those who do not know Christ as Savior are eternally guilty. Eternally guilty. You see, if it was possible for human suffering to somehow compensate for our sin, eventually hell would no longer exist. People would have “paid for their sins.” But may I say it very clearly that there is no human suffering that can pay for so much as a single sin. The only Person who could suffer on behalf of sin whose sacrifice and suffering was received is Jesus Christ because He was God and therefore He is able to give us the righteousness of God which we need to get into heaven. But no human suffering can pay for sin.
Remember the words of the song, “Could my tears forever flow, could my zeal no respite know. All for sin could not atone, Thou must save and Thou alone.”

I think that oftentimes also we overlook the seriousness of our sin. You know, we say to ourselves, “Well, what I have done is not that big a deal.” Well, wait a moment. Wait a moment. It is a big deal because it was done in the presence of God and all sin is sin against Him.

[end quoting E. Lutzer]

One single solitary sin doomed the entire human race, including all progeny who did not take part in this original sin. And all of creation was ruined. That is God's perspective on sin. No sin is in the least bit tolerable to the Holy God. All sin needs to be dealt with one way or another.

Trivial Christians always trivialize sin.

cv5 · Oct 25, 2021

godskidisfree said:

No.....Jesus is at the door of the Laodicean church. Your take on it is a common misconception.
I will elaborate tomorrow....

cv5 · Oct 25, 2021

Laura798 said:

The How and When of Eternal Torment Invaded the Church (to read full article clcik on the link below)

"It shocks me to hear people argue that the doctrine of Hell has been the definitive belief of Christendom since the days of the New Testament. Such a claim demonstrates a fundamental ignorance of Church history and is a testament to how extensively St. Augustine’s doctrine influenced the orthodox church.

The idea of eternal torment comes primarily from Greek thought — a merging of mythology and the ramification of belief in an immortal soul.

For 5 centuries, Christian doctrine remained unaffected by Hell until St. Augustine forcibly inserted it into orthodoxy, using a combination of power and violence to ensure it’s survival. Since that time, we’ve seen the gradual evolution of Christian doctrine in and around this concept, until today, the average believer has no idea that the concept of eternal torment isn’t even Biblical.

This doctrine of Hell has been used for centuries to control the masses with fear. Today, it prevents the world, both Christian and non-Christian alike, from seeing a loving Father."--Julie Ferwerda

https://medium.com/@BrazenChurch/ho...-torment-invaded-church-doctrine-7610e6b70815

That is a sorry excuse for proper biblical hermeneutics. Vapid, vacuous and vain I would say.

Runningman · Oct 25, 2021

Just going to leave these here...

Matthew 10:28
28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell

John 3:16
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 2:7
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Romans 6:23
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Philippians 3:18-19
18(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

Hebrews 10:26-27
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Hebrews 10:39
39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

James 4:12
12There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

2 Peter 3:7
7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Revelation 20:14-15
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Psalm 1:16
6For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Psalm 37:20
20But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Psalm 92:7
7that though the wicked sprout like grass, and all evildoers flourish, they will be forever destroyed.

Ezekiel 18:20
20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Gideon300 · Oct 26, 2021

Laura798 said:

If man is not immortal then no one will be found in heaven either. Adam sinned and died immediately. Yet he still existed. So why would he cease to exist after his body dies? The Bible often describes physical death as sleep. That also is not the end of existence. There is no basis for claiming that man will not exist for ever, either alive in Christ or dead in trespass and sin. The condition of the unbeliever does not change, but his location does. The first death is separation from God. The second death is final and removes any opportunity to be saved.

Our God is a consuming fire. All man's self delusion, the lies he believes about himself and God will be exposed and stripped away. He will be faced with the truth that he rejected God's love, mercy and grace. That he will have to live with for eternity. That's torment.

If there is no existence after death then the account of the rich man and Lazarus is meaningless.

Diakonos · Oct 26, 2021

Runningman said:

It's irrelevant if it contradicts the context you're pulling that verse from. Romans 5 repeatedly described physical death. The death of Adam is topologically linked to the death of Jesus. You don't believe Jesus spiritually died, do you?

Runningman said:

Don't use quotation marks unless you are actually quoting the Bible (especially God).
This is what He said:

“...in the day (yom) that you eat from it you will surely die.”” (Genesis 2:17)

(Hebrew) "yom" has about 9 possible meanings. You'd have to demonstrate, contextually, how you know Moses intended "a 24-hour calendar day" when he wrote this before you can effectively use this as a premise for your position.
Also, "in" could translate as "by" (as in "on account of").

Runningman said:

It's not really relevant...but we have no idea how old Adam was when he ate the fruit.

Runningman said:

God can alter/bypass the natural process of death. He has the authority to take his own life, apart from the wages of sin.

““No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down,
and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”” (John 10:18)

Runningman said:

Again God can bypass/alter the natural process of death by His own power. He has authority over life AND death.
Enoch and Elijah never died (Gen 5:24, 2 King 2:11), though they both sinned (Rome 3:23). So apparently the tree of life is not the way to avoid death.

Runningman said:

It seems like a theory worth exploring. But until you have a solid Biblical explanation for that, it can't be used to support a controversial debate.
My answer, for now, is that they wouldn't be able to eat from the tree of life because “what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? Or what harmony has Christ with Belial...what agreement has the temple of God with idols?" (2 Corinthians 6:14–16)

Consider this:
If the tree of life can give anyone eternal life (even sinners). What would happen if someone ate from the tree of life after blaspheming the Holy Spirit?
I would argue that they would not have eternal life in them because the one who blasphemes Him is guilty of an eternal sin. Eating from the tree of life would have no reversing effect. "Eternal life" is defined as "knowing God" according to John 17, not eating some fruit.

Magenta · Oct 26, 2021

Gideon300 said:

Christianity 101: we put on immortality through Christ alone.

Gideon300 said:

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man is no more meaningless than any other parable.

Choose this day whom you will serve.

ewq1938 · Oct 26, 2021

Gideon300 said:

There is existence after the first death.

There is no existence after the second death.

Lucy-Pevensie · Oct 26, 2021

Duckybill said:

Let's not go OTT. They have a handful of differing verses in the New World Translation not 'nearly every verse'.
And no, I do not endorse The NWT or JW doctrines.

What we can say is that annhilationism is espoused by JW's.
And some form of it also by SDA's, Mormons, Christadelphians & Christian Scientists which are all Christian cult groups.

Some theologians and a few Christians historically have also espoused the view.
I don't think it would be fair to call them heretics based on this issue alone.

That said, it should be noted that the majority view among Christians of all continents & ages, the Orthodox view-
is that of eternal torment. The annihilationists are the challengers, not the norm and I haven't yet been convinced
by any of their arguments. Especially since some of them misrepresent my view entirely.

cv5 · Oct 26, 2021

I would love to hear some cogent rebuttals regarding these Scriptures. If anybody has the sheer courage and fortitude that is....

===================================================================================================

Rom 9:22
What if God, wanting to show His wrath (G3709) and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath (G3709) prepared for destruction (G684)

Mat 25:41 (Not a parable folks....abject facts and truth...)
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
<<<This is indeed everlasting fire, PREPARED for everlasting beings....the devil and his angels.>>>

Dan 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Jhn 3:36
“He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath (G3709) of God abides on him.”

Matthew 23:15
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you traverse the sea and the dry land to make one convert, and whenever it may happen, you make him twofold more a son of Gehenna than yourselves.

Matt 23:33
Serpents! Offspring of vipers! How shall you escape from the sentence of Gehenna?

Strongs G1067
geenna: Gehenna, a valley W. and South of Jer., also a symbolic name for the final place of punishment of the ungodly
Original Word: γέεννα, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: geenna
Phonetic Spelling: (gheh'-en-nah)
Definition: Gehenna, a valley west and South of Jerusalem, also a symbolic name for the final place of punishment of the ungodly
Usage: Gehenna, and originally the name of a valley or cavity near Jerusalem, a place underneath the earth, a place of punishment for evil.

HELPS Word-studies
1067 géenna (a transliteration of the Hebrew term, Gêhinnōm, "the valley of Hinnom") – Gehenna, i.e. hell (also referred to as the "lake of fire" in Revelation).

Gehenna ("hell"), the place of post-resurrection torment (judgment), refers strictly to the everlasting abode of the unredeemed where they experience divine judgment in their individual resurrection-bodies. Each of the unredeemed receives one at the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev 20:11-15), i.e. a body that "matches" their capacity for torment relating to their (unique) judgment

Magenta · Oct 26, 2021

Lucy-Pevensie said:

You do realize that an appeal to majority is a logical fallacy?

Not much different than supposing Catholics must be right because they outnumber any other denomination.

No doubt the views of the other side get misrepresented often also.

You know, like being told we do not believe the Bible when the reality is we reject a man-made tradition.

A rule nobody can give us the origin of: it cannot be a parable because real people are named.

Matthew 13:34 Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable.

Mark 4:34 He did not say anything to them without using a parable. But when he was alone with his own disciples, he explained everything.

Matthew 13:13 This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

Mark 4:10 When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables.

The Calvinist view puts forth that God torments forever after those who
refuse to make a choice that was never given to them to make in the
first place. How anyone can see that as loving, just, or fair is beyond me.

Consider also that Paul never mentioned the word hell and he told us to follow his example, assuring us he had given us the full council of God straight from Jesus. Paul said we should do as He did, and how many times in all his books (28% of the NT) did he preach eternal conscious torment via hellfire damnation? Did he ever even use the word hell? No, he did not. Paul, who claimed he was caught up into heaven and given the Gospel directly by Jesus, that all men would be judged according to his gospel, that he had declared to people the whole counsel of God, that he kept back nothing profitable from the people he taught, and that he was the apostle to the gentiles... never once used the word hell. Paul uses the Greek word "Hades" in 1 Corinthians 15:55, where it is translated "grave." (KJV) O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? In Galatians 1:8, he says: But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

rayzor · Oct 26, 2021

cv5 said:

I would love to hear some cogent rebuttals regarding these Scriptures. If anybody has the sheer courage and fortitude that is....

===================================================================================================

Rom 9:22
What if God, wanting to show His wrath (G3709) and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath (G3709) prepared for destruction (G684)

Mat 25:41 (Not a parable folks....abject facts and truth...)
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
<<<This is indeed everlasting fire, PREPARED for everlasting beings....the devil and his angels.>>>

Dan 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Jhn 3:36
“He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath (G3709) of God abides on him.”

Matthew 23:15
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you traverse the sea and the dry land to make one convert, and whenever it may happen, you make him twofold more a son of Gehenna than yourselves.

Matt 23:33
Serpents! Offspring of vipers! How shall you escape from the sentence of Gehenna?

Strongs G1067
geenna: Gehenna, a valley W. and South of Jer., also a symbolic name for the final place of punishment of the ungodly
Original Word: γέεννα, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: geenna
Phonetic Spelling: (gheh'-en-nah)
Definition: Gehenna, a valley west and South of Jerusalem, also a symbolic name for the final place of punishment of the ungodly
Usage: Gehenna, and originally the name of a valley or cavity near Jerusalem, a place underneath the earth, a place of punishment for evil.

HELPS Word-studies
1067 géenna (a transliteration of the Hebrew term, Gêhinnōm, "the valley of Hinnom") – Gehenna, i.e. hell (also referred to as the "lake of fire" in Revelation).

Gehenna ("hell"), the place of post-resurrection torment (judgment), refers strictly to the everlasting abode of the unredeemed where they experience divine judgment in their individual resurrection-bodies. Each of the unredeemed receives one at the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev 20:11-15), i.e. a body that "matches" their capacity for torment relating to their (unique) judgment

cv5
Well-known member It's easy for me:In Exodus there's a passage, in that passage it says do not side with the majority if what the majority says is wrong..Jesus said go learn what this means i desire ???? not sacrifice.It is found in the pro verbs right? kindness is a torment to the bad guys? like hot coals on their head.Where the worm never dies,,,,both man and Jesus are called worms in the old testament....could be my personal context is wrong,,but there is a scripture that says not willing that any perishes. se lah!

Laura798 · Oct 26, 2021

Lucy-Pevensie said:

Lucy,

What arguments do you not believe? We have repeatedly used numerous literal verses that says the 'wages of sin is death", the unbelievers "perish" John 3:16, the wicked are "destroyed"

You can randomly open up the new testament from Acts onward (Jesus spoke in figurative language--by his own admisstion) and see over and over and OVER again, that DEATH and DESTRUCTION is the end of man. The old testament is replete with verses saying LITERALLY that the end of the wicked is DESTRUCTION.

Please show me just one LITERAL verse that says Eternal Conscious Torment is the end of man. IMPORTANT: It must be a literal verse, NOT figurative, e.g. 'eternal' fire/tormented day and night forever and ever...'where the worm dieth not--ALL of those use FIGURATIVE Language.

And do you not understand that you are in fact DENYING Christ paid the penalty by His death on the cross--that He died in our PLACE?

Do none of you understand this very foundational truth of the gospel?

You ARE IN FACT saying he is or will be burning for eternity if THAT is the punishment for sin.

What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

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