Cessation of Gifts

[Evmur]

Yes but you can prove with actual facts whether the gift of tongues was prevalent among all Christians (not just Pentecostals) from 30 AD to 1906. Now it is up to you to prove it from Church History (regardless of denominations). The Montanists were regarded as heretics so let's leave them out.

No this is not the test. by the turn of the 1st century they were worshipping the eucharist, the bishop was obeyed as though he were Christ in person.

The Holy Spirit will never, never authenticate such lies by manifestations. He will work but He will work secretly and that is what He did until the truths of the reformation were re-discovered.

Revelation did not end in the 16th century.

 

[Evmur]

The current position cannot be proved with Scripture, but with actual facts one way or another. So if you are prepared to accept the studies of linguists who have analyzed modern tongues, fine. If not, you can go to 1 Corinthians 13:8 and either believe it or not.

you will rate scholarship as more than the bible?

 

[Cabrillo]

Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 1 Cor 13:8

Does this say, beyond any doubt that the Gifts have already ceased???

We can only be full gospel believers or everything in it is debatable. Who can be certain that any part of it is no longer valid. Some believe that divorce is OK others think it's OK to be gay. Is it OK to kneel or bow before a king? Not, not, not!

 

[DavidTree]

We can only be full gospel believers or everything in it is debatable. Who can be certain that any part of it is no longer valid. Some believe that divorce is OK others think it's OK to be gay. Is it OK to kneel or bow before a king? Not, not, not!

Dear Brother - AGREE = the Gospel is not debatable

Neither are the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and the cessation of these Gifts - God has spoken on this and His answer has been recorded in Scripture and is PROVEN.

The question is - Which way has it been PROVEN? i know the answer, for it is there in Scripture

 

[Evmur]

Well first part of scripture is 1 Corinthians 13.

That which is perfect, or the perfect thing is what causes sign gifts in this passage to cease.

So some key points:

Its talking the GIFT of knowlege, not knowledge in general. So we still have knowledge now. But not the particular gift used for initially spreading Gods Word and setting up God's churches.

Another key thing.. in this passage what is in part? Because that is what the perfect is completing.

Prophecy, tongues and knowledge in part.... the perfect thing completes these gifts. The passage is about part (prophecy, etc) to whole, incomplete to complete, child to man (paul speaking of maturity), obscured (the mirror) to fully known.

Now prophecy, tongues and knowledge gifts were completely to do with God revealing His Word thru men. It was partial revelation at the time and became complete thru the completion of the canon.

Other things that led to the cessation were the likes of the death of apostles.

Last point is that the practice of God no longer operating in something in the same way should not be surprise given he no longer will flood the world again symbolized by the rainbow, no longer operates with the OT system of sacrifices and rules, a d there are customs from NT times we no longer hold to like kissing cheeks.

Was Paul as apostle acting or speaking like a child when he spake in tongues? you say the canon of scripture have made the gifts unnecessary but it is in the canon of scripture that we are urged to speak in tongues and earnestly desire the other gifts.

The bible is not more perfect than the word spoken by those who wrote it. It does not give a greater revelation or understanding of the gospel or salvation or christian life and practice than Paul had ... Paul himself wrote the greatest revelations [other than our Lord]

Paul urged us that we should ALL speak in tongues and that we should earnestly desire the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

But he urges that we do so with love.

 

[Evmur]

Love you Brother Evmur, you know this is true, and Thank You for your reply.
Will you forgive my abruptness and bear with me that i may ask for Scripture to support your stance - PEACE

The bible does not say that the gifts were temporary.

 

[Cabrillo]

Dear Brother - AGREE = the Gospel is not debatable

Neither are the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and the cessation of these Gifts - God has spoken on this and His answer has been recorded in Scripture and is PROVEN.

The question is - Which way has it been PROVEN? i know the answer, for it is there in Scripture

I believe that the gifts were manifested by God for a reason and God alone decides when, where how and why. It has been degraded by some as being little more than a trick to tickle the ears or stir up a spirit. That dosn't mean always. God alone decides how and why that it comes to suit his purpose. He is sovereign. Theirs no formula, clock or calendar. The Holy Spirit is sent by Christ to accomplish his purpose. It's real & not a show.

Isaiah 10 As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

 

[DavidTree]

Was Paul as apostle acting or speaking like a child when he spake in tongues? you say the canon of scripture have made the gifts unnecessary but it is in the canon of scripture that we are urged to speak in tongues and earnestly desire the other gifts.

The bible is not more perfect than the word spoken by those who wrote it. It does not give a greater revelation or understanding of the gospel or salvation or christian life and practice than Paul had ... Paul himself wrote the greatest revelations [other than our Lord]

Paul urged us that we should ALL speak in tongues and that we should earnestly desire the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

But he urges that we do so with love.

Forgive me again, but does this speak as present for today or was the Apostle speaking of his and the other Apostles duration???

 

[DavidTree]

The bible does not say that the gifts were temporary.

Let's just say, to avoid argument, i agree - can you prove it by Scripture alone?

 

[DavidTree]

I believe that the gifts were manifested by God for a reason and God alone decides when, where how and why. It has been degraded by some as being little more than a trick to tickle the ears or stir up a spirit. That dosn't mean always. God alone decides how and why that it comes to suit his purpose. He is sovereign. Theirs no formula, clock or calendar. The Holy Spirit is sent by Christ to accomplish his purpose. It's real & not a show.

Isaiah 10 As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

Beautiful and true words - however, our God is not the author of confusion.

HE did, in fact, say when these Gifts were established and when they will cease - found in His Word.

 

[DavidTree]

The bible does not say that the gifts were temporary.

In fact, the scripture does say they are temporary. The question is when do/did they cease???

God gave us BOTH the Authority and Authenticity of the Gifts and HE gave us the exact time when they cease = in His Word.

 

[DavidTree]

I believe that the gifts were manifested by God for a reason and God alone decides when, where how and why. It has been degraded by some as being little more than a trick to tickle the ears or stir up a spirit. That dosn't mean always. God alone decides how and why that it comes to suit his purpose. He is sovereign. Theirs no formula, clock or calendar. The Holy Spirit is sent by Christ to accomplish his purpose. It's real & not a show.

Isaiah 10 As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

STAY WITH THIS =
so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

The Answer is in His Word - Beyond any shadow of doubt.

 

[Evmur]

Forgive me again, but does this speak as present for today or was the Apostle speaking of his and the other Apostles duration???

You will either believe the bible is for you today or you will not, God will give you what you believe Him for if it accords with scripture.

 

[DavidTree]

You will either believe the bible is for you today or you will not, God will give you what you believe Him for if it accords with scripture.

dear Brother, i firmly believe His Word and the answer we seek together is there in, His word and can be proven by the Scripture Itself.

Do not fear this - you are on the right track - i am encouraging you so that you know even more then you do now.

 

[Evmur]

Let's just say, to avoid argument, i agree - can you prove it by Scripture alone?

the onus is not on me to prove by scripture that the gifts are ceased, the onus is upon those who say that they have. Somebody might say that salvation has ceased and yes like the gifts of the Holy Spirit when the perfect is come salvation even will cease.

 

[DavidTree]

the onus is not on me to prove by scripture that the gifts are ceased, the onus is upon those who say that they have. Somebody might say that salvation has ceased and yes like the gifts of the Holy Spirit when the perfect is come salvation even will cease.

i believe the onus is on both - our Lord never backed away from those who questioned His authority.
Neither should anyone who knows the truth.

The answer is there and you even touched on it.

Later on in this thread, the PROVEN word of the Lord on this subject will be given - i am hoping for discovery from others

 

[DavidTree]

Well first part of scripture is 1 Corinthians 13.

That which is perfect, or the perfect thing is what causes sign gifts in this passage to cease.

So some key points:

Its talking the GIFT of knowlege, not knowledge in general. So we still have knowledge now. But not the particular gift used for initially spreading Gods Word and setting up God's churches.

Another key thing.. in this passage what is in part? Because that is what the perfect is completing.

Prophecy, tongues and knowledge in part.... the perfect thing completes these gifts. The passage is about part (prophecy, etc) to whole, incomplete to complete, child to man (paul speaking of maturity), obscured (the mirror) to fully known.

Now prophecy, tongues and knowledge gifts were completely to do with God revealing His Word thru men. It was partial revelation at the time and became complete thru the completion of the canon.

Other things that led to the cessation were the likes of the death of apostles.

Last point is that the practice of God no longer operating in something in the same way should not be surprise given he no longer will flood the world again symbolized by the rainbow, no longer operates with the OT system of sacrifices and rules, a d there are customs from NT times we no longer hold to like kissing cheeks.

The Lord did not shut down the sacrifices and rules without first stating that a BETTER Covenant would come and displace the one that no one was able to keep.

The Gifts of the Holy Spirit are not any type of tradition or custom of the era of the Apostles.
They would not be from the Holy Spirit if they were the customs and traditions of men.

You did hit on the area of Scripture where the LORD firmly established when the cessation of Gifts will occur.

Stay with Scripture - follow the leading of the Apostle Paul and other Witnesses to this TRUTH.

Thank you for your input

 

[TheChurchOfRepentance]

Preacher John McArthur, Baptists, Dispensation and others had declared that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, most especially speaking in Tongues, had CEASED with the departure of the Apostles.

Could this be true? If , Yes, then speaking in tongues would be counterfeit and even demonic.

God is not the Author of confusion and somebody is in great error.

PROVE IT - by the Word of God and do so by obeying the LORD's Commandments:

“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ Matthew 18:15-17

Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.
Proverbs 30:5-6

The Two or Three Witnesses are found in Scripture concerning this Challenge of TRUTH.

The Spirit gives utterance by my tongue all the time. Even various divers of tongues.
I love it and think it is wonderful.

 

[DavidTree]

The Spirit gives utterance by my tongue all the time. Even various divers of tongues.
I love it and think it is wonderful.

Yes, this thread is to establish the undeniable Truth of when(or if they have) they will cease as many seek to claim.

The answer is in the Word. A clear definitive answer has been given to us so that the Body of christ can know for certain and not be subject to confusion or temptation.

Can you find that definitive Answer to the Challenge set forth?

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.
Ephesians 4

 

[TheChurchOfRepentance]

Yes, this thread is to establish the undeniable Truth of when(or if they have) they will cease as many seek to claim.

The answer is in the Word. A clear definitive answer has been given to us so that the Body of christ can know for certain and not be subject to confusion or temptation.

Can you find that definitive Answer to the Challenge set forth?

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.
Ephesians 4

Jesus is the Word. When He speaks through me or anyone else, it is the Word.
Do you disagree?