The Falling Away - pre-trib rapture or ???
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Your rejection of the clear truth is just so sad.
Acts 24:15 says there will be A resurrection of the saved. That's one. Not multiple resurrections.
1 Cor 15:23 says that after Christ, the firstfruits, THEN "those who belong to Him". Again, showing a single resurrection for all the saved.
2 Thess 2:1,3 prove that the Second Advent and the "gathering" occur together.
Rev 20:5 tell us that martyred believers from the Tribulation will be resurrected and reign with Christ.
your view then must have 2 resurrections, one before the Trib and the one in Rev 20:5.
So, please address each of these verses to prove they don't mean exactly what they say.
Acts 24:15 says there will be A resurrection of the saved. That's one. Not multiple resurrections.
1 Cor 15:23 says that after Christ, the firstfruits, THEN "those who belong to Him". Again, showing a single resurrection for all the saved.
2 Thess 2:1,3 prove that the Second Advent and the "gathering" occur together.
Rev 20:5 tell us that martyred believers from the Tribulation will be resurrected and reign with Christ.
your view then must have 2 resurrections, one before the Trib and the one in Rev 20:5.
So, please address each of these verses to prove they don't mean exactly what they say.
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Now Dear Brother, TODAY, if you hear His Voice speaking from Revelation chapter 6
Scripture cannot lie - Believe what God has said without changing a word
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, - 1 Timothy 4:1
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come.
3Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first,
and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, “Come and see.” And I looked, and behold, a white horse.
He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.
BEFORE the Second Coming of Christ = comes many antichrists and then the final Antichrist = son of perdition.
Scripture cannot lie = place your complete trust in His Word = do not add or take away for it will cause you to stray.
Scripture cannot lie - Believe what God has said without changing a word
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, - 1 Timothy 4:1
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come.
3Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first,
and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, “Come and see.” And I looked, and behold, a white horse.
He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.
BEFORE the Second Coming of Christ = comes many antichrists and then the final Antichrist = son of perdition.
Scripture cannot lie = place your complete trust in His Word = do not add or take away for it will cause you to stray.
FreeGrace2 said:
Your rejection of the clear truth is just so sad.
Acts 24:15 says there will be A resurrection of the saved. That's one. Not multiple resurrections.
1 Cor 15:23 says that after Christ, the firstfruits, THEN "those who belong to Him". Again, showing a single resurrection for all the saved.
2 Thess 2:1,3 prove that the Second Advent and the "gathering" occur together.
Rev 20:5 tell us that martyred believers from the Tribulation will be resurrected and reign with Christ.
your view then must have 2 resurrections, one before the Trib and the one in Rev 20:5.
So, please address each of these verses to prove they don't mean exactly what they say.
And that's your response to my request?
But, I know you can't prove that any of the verses I've quoted mean something other than they say. Or you would have, and gladly.
So this isn't an issue of "pot...kettle" but rather truth against a lie.
You haven't proven your case or refuted mine. All you have done is disagree.
Those who believe in a pre-trib rapture all the while knowing there are NO verses showing Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers up to heaven, are believing a fantasy.
And the verses I quoted prove that the singular resurrection of saved people occurs when Jesus returns at the Second Advent.
But since you reject that, why won't you refute it from Scripture?
Your rejection of the clear truth is just so sad.
Acts 24:15 says there will be A resurrection of the saved. That's one. Not multiple resurrections.
1 Cor 15:23 says that after Christ, the firstfruits, THEN "those who belong to Him". Again, showing a single resurrection for all the saved.
2 Thess 2:1,3 prove that the Second Advent and the "gathering" occur together.
Rev 20:5 tell us that martyred believers from the Tribulation will be resurrected and reign with Christ.
your view then must have 2 resurrections, one before the Trib and the one in Rev 20:5.
So, please address each of these verses to prove they don't mean exactly what they say.
And that's your response to my request?
But, I know you can't prove that any of the verses I've quoted mean something other than they say. Or you would have, and gladly.
So this isn't an issue of "pot...kettle" but rather truth against a lie.
You haven't proven your case or refuted mine. All you have done is disagree.
Those who believe in a pre-trib rapture all the while knowing there are NO verses showing Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers up to heaven, are believing a fantasy.
And the verses I quoted prove that the singular resurrection of saved people occurs when Jesus returns at the Second Advent.
But since you reject that, why won't you refute it from Scripture?
""your view then must have 2 resurrections, one before the Trib and the one in Rev 20:5""
They lived and reigned with Christ.
No resurrection. Even those raptured alive did the same thing, they lived and reigned with Christ.
Oh, you mean that those you say (not the bible) are resurrected way after the descending on white horses, way after his appearing in the sky...in rev 20?
That's weird because the 1st resurrection has those in Christ that are in graves resurrected BEFORE your supposed first resurrection...psssst, they are resurrected SIMULTANEOUSLY AT HOS COMING...not the next day as you have reframed it
Your deal is way way off.
You are basically saying that the supposed "resurrection" of rev 20, is AFTER the legit 1st resurrection
Where they rise into the sky at the rapture AT HIS APPEARING...WHICH IS BEFORE THAT SCENE IN REV 20
But with Jesus gathering saints in rev 14....?
How many verses do you now need to reframe, to make your Rev 20 work?
Go ahead and show me now that you are painted in a corner.
I just gave you 2witnesses against your impossible rev 20 "1st resurrection"
what you are reading in rev 20, is in no way a time frame.
It is merely saying who they are...not WHEN they were resurrected.They are part of the 1st resurrection.
It is impossible for that to be what you are MAKING it into..
Vividly depicted in my 2 examples
They lived and reigned with Christ.
No resurrection. Even those raptured alive did the same thing, they lived and reigned with Christ.
Oh, you mean that those you say (not the bible) are resurrected way after the descending on white horses, way after his appearing in the sky...in rev 20?
That's weird because the 1st resurrection has those in Christ that are in graves resurrected BEFORE your supposed first resurrection...psssst, they are resurrected SIMULTANEOUSLY AT HOS COMING...not the next day as you have reframed it
Your deal is way way off.
You are basically saying that the supposed "resurrection" of rev 20, is AFTER the legit 1st resurrection
Where they rise into the sky at the rapture AT HIS APPEARING...WHICH IS BEFORE THAT SCENE IN REV 20
But with Jesus gathering saints in rev 14....?
How many verses do you now need to reframe, to make your Rev 20 work?
Go ahead and show me now that you are painted in a corner.
I just gave you 2witnesses against your impossible rev 20 "1st resurrection"
what you are reading in rev 20, is in no way a time frame.
It is merely saying who they are...not WHEN they were resurrected.They are part of the 1st resurrection.
It is impossible for that to be what you are MAKING it into..
Vividly depicted in my 2 examples
Jesus never left heaven brother he extended himself to earth in the form of man for a time
“And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”
John 3:13 KJV
“I and my Father are one.”
John 10:30 KJV
“Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.”
John 16:32
Jesus is God being shown to mankind so they can understand and know him. Jesus on earth , or even in the heart of the earth doesn’t mean he was not in heaven he always was.
the thief went into the kingdom with the lord his eternal Kingdom what the Christs duties were had no bearing he went to be with the father that day
God isn’t bound to one place and time like we are he can be in heaven and also in a believer , also can walk on earth in the form of man if he chooses and wills he also fills the universe all at once can fill heaven and earth can live in one believer in China another in the u.s. and still be seated in his throne . He can descend and destroy the dominion of Satan and still be receiving praises in heaven at the same time
“And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”
John 3:13 KJV
“I and my Father are one.”
John 10:30 KJV
“Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.”
John 16:32
Jesus is God being shown to mankind so they can understand and know him. Jesus on earth , or even in the heart of the earth doesn’t mean he was not in heaven he always was.
the thief went into the kingdom with the lord his eternal Kingdom what the Christs duties were had no bearing he went to be with the father that day
God isn’t bound to one place and time like we are he can be in heaven and also in a believer , also can walk on earth in the form of man if he chooses and wills he also fills the universe all at once can fill heaven and earth can live in one believer in China another in the u.s. and still be seated in his throne . He can descend and destroy the dominion of Satan and still be receiving praises in heaven at the same time
"""Those who believe in a pre-trib rapture all the while knowing there are NO verses showing Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers up to heaven, are believing a fantasy."""
Rev 19 is a lie?
The bride becomes the wife in heaven is a lie?
Jesus lied when he said " i will not drink of the cup again till i drink it anew with you in my fathers kingdom? He lied?
Jesus lied when he told his followers he was building mansions IN HEAVEN for them to inhabit?
...and you claim there is no business in heaven to support your debunked postrib rapture workbook
That is a real shame.
Rev 19 is a lie?
The bride becomes the wife in heaven is a lie?
Jesus lied when he said " i will not drink of the cup again till i drink it anew with you in my fathers kingdom? He lied?
Jesus lied when he told his followers he was building mansions IN HEAVEN for them to inhabit?
...and you claim there is no business in heaven to support your debunked postrib rapture workbook
That is a real shame.
"""
Those who believe in a pre-trib rapture all the while knowing there are NO verses showing Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers up to heaven, are believing a fantasy."""
You have not proven anything at all
Nothing
Easy to debunk every single component you have twisted and reframed.
The word of God is not going away.
But keep painting yourself into a corner and watch your teachers avoid every pretrib rapture verse.
They taught you well.
Those who believe in a pre-trib rapture all the while knowing there are NO verses showing Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers up to heaven, are believing a fantasy."""
You have not proven anything at all
Nothing
Easy to debunk every single component you have twisted and reframed.
The word of God is not going away.
But keep painting yourself into a corner and watch your teachers avoid every pretrib rapture verse.
They taught you well.
Are your reading skills really this bad?? Rev 20:5 describes the martyrs as being in the FIRST resurrection.
So your conclusion that there is "no resurrection" in Rev 20:5 is utterly absurd.
Anyone with average reading skills knows the Bible calls it the FIRST resurrection.
Here, I'll show you again:
(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
What do you think the red words are referring to? The martyrs, of course.
I've never said anything about your fantasized "next day". Where do you get such nonsense?
No, that would be your conclusions that are way off.
I've proven the rapture is at the Second Advent. Why can't you prove me wrong by actually addressing the verses I've laid out?
I see your problem. You just keep assuming that there was a "first" resurrection before the Trib. Well, the Bible doesn't say that anywhere. And I've shown you what the Bible DOES say about the first resurrection.
Your stubborn refusal to acknowledge the truth of Scripture is astounding.
So your conclusion that there is "no resurrection" in Rev 20:5 is utterly absurd.
Anyone with average reading skills knows the Bible calls it the FIRST resurrection.
Here, I'll show you again:
(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
What do you think the red words are referring to? The martyrs, of course.
I've never said anything about your fantasized "next day". Where do you get such nonsense?
No, that would be your conclusions that are way off.
I've proven the rapture is at the Second Advent. Why can't you prove me wrong by actually addressing the verses I've laid out?
I see your problem. You just keep assuming that there was a "first" resurrection before the Trib. Well, the Bible doesn't say that anywhere. And I've shown you what the Bible DOES say about the first resurrection.
Your stubborn refusal to acknowledge the truth of Scripture is astounding.
Of course not. But you live in a fantasy world and cannot discern Scripture. You can't even read it properly when you claim that Rev 20:5 isn't about a resurrection.
I've already explained to you the anticipatory language in the text that shows what is about to take place. Then we read of the trip to earth immediately following.
How in the world can you not grasp the obvious meaning of this??
Jesus was telling His disciples about heaven. And that He wouldn't drink the cup until they had all died and therefore went to heaven.
First, the Greek word doesn't mean "mansions", but literally "rooms". And I've already explained this as well. Jesus was assuring His disciples that they were guaranteed a place in heaven when they died.
I don't even know what this is supposed to mean. I've said nothing about "business in heaven". Weird.
What you need to do is address the verses I've laid out to prove my view, and refute my view by proving that they don't mean what they say.
But, you won't do that.
Yes, it is a real shame that you won't do that. But of course, you CAN'T do that. The verses DO mean what they say.
I've already explained to you the anticipatory language in the text that shows what is about to take place. Then we read of the trip to earth immediately following.
How in the world can you not grasp the obvious meaning of this??
Jesus was telling His disciples about heaven. And that He wouldn't drink the cup until they had all died and therefore went to heaven.
First, the Greek word doesn't mean "mansions", but literally "rooms". And I've already explained this as well. Jesus was assuring His disciples that they were guaranteed a place in heaven when they died.
I don't even know what this is supposed to mean. I've said nothing about "business in heaven". Weird.
What you need to do is address the verses I've laid out to prove my view, and refute my view by proving that they don't mean what they say.
But, you won't do that.
Yes, it is a real shame that you won't do that. But of course, you CAN'T do that. The verses DO mean what they say.
Could you point me to those "pretrib rapture verses" that show Jesus taking people to heaven?
If you can't, there is no reason to believe in a pretrib rapture.
The primary thrust of a pretrib rapture is one of avoiding the Trib. So, ANY "pretrib rapture verse" would have to include information about Jesus taking the resurrected and raptured believers up to heaven.
So, where are they?
If you can't, there is no reason to believe in a pretrib rapture.
The primary thrust of a pretrib rapture is one of avoiding the Trib. So, ANY "pretrib rapture verse" would have to include information about Jesus taking the resurrected and raptured believers up to heaven.
So, where are they?
Ok so the "first resurrection" in your mind comes after the dead in Christ at his coming?
You do realize what i have done to your "1st resurrection" , right?
You now have A pre first resserrection at the second coming because your supposed First ressurrection is some time AFTER the coming of Jesus, because THE DEAD IN CHRIST COME OUT OF THEIR GRAVES At THE SECOND COMING
...NOT THE NEXT DAY AS YOU ARE ERRONEOUSLY TEACHING.
You do realize what i just did to your deal...correct?
You do realize what i have done to your "1st resurrection" , right?
You now have A pre first resserrection at the second coming because your supposed First ressurrection is some time AFTER the coming of Jesus, because THE DEAD IN CHRIST COME OUT OF THEIR GRAVES At THE SECOND COMING
...NOT THE NEXT DAY AS YOU ARE ERRONEOUSLY TEACHING.
You do realize what i just did to your deal...correct?
Seems you are having quite a concentration problem.
Look, Acts 24:15 SAYS there is ONE resurrection for the saved and ONE for the unsaved. Or prove me wrong.
So, the martyred believers will be resurrected with every other dead saint who comes with Jesus at the Second Advent. Just before the living believers on earth will be "changed in the twinkling of the eye" per 1 Cor 15:52.
Nothing, that's what. However, you HAVE done yourself in by ignoring the verses that prove that there is a single resurrection for ALL believers from Adam on. Acts 24:15 and 1 Cor 15:23 prove that.
If you would ONLY read and understand the verses that I have shared with you, you wouldn't be so confused. But you aren't even paying any attention.
Your arrogance exceeds your lack of facts.
Your posts are full of yak, but until and unless you address the key verses that I have shared with you, and are able to show that I am not understanding them correctly, you have no point at all.
Look, Acts 24:15 SAYS there is ONE resurrection for the saved and ONE for the unsaved. Or prove me wrong.
So, the martyred believers will be resurrected with every other dead saint who comes with Jesus at the Second Advent. Just before the living believers on earth will be "changed in the twinkling of the eye" per 1 Cor 15:52.
Nothing, that's what. However, you HAVE done yourself in by ignoring the verses that prove that there is a single resurrection for ALL believers from Adam on. Acts 24:15 and 1 Cor 15:23 prove that.
If you would ONLY read and understand the verses that I have shared with you, you wouldn't be so confused. But you aren't even paying any attention.
Your arrogance exceeds your lack of facts.
Your posts are full of yak, but until and unless you address the key verses that I have shared with you, and are able to show that I am not understanding them correctly, you have no point at all.
Let's take a peek at the full context and see how dishonest you are.
"What you need to do is address the verses I've laid out to prove my view, and refute my view by proving that they don't mean what they say.
But, you won't do that."
So, you see, you HAVEN'T "done that". You haven't addressed the verses I have shared with you. EVER.
Cop out. Dodge. You "hold back" because you cannot prove the verses mean something other than what they say.
Sure. How about ANY verse that shows Jesus taking believers to heaven.
Let's go. I can't wait for your evidence.
"What you need to do is address the verses I've laid out to prove my view, and refute my view by proving that they don't mean what they say.
But, you won't do that."
So, you see, you HAVEN'T "done that". You haven't addressed the verses I have shared with you. EVER.
Cop out. Dodge. You "hold back" because you cannot prove the verses mean something other than what they say.
Sure. How about ANY verse that shows Jesus taking believers to heaven.
Let's go. I can't wait for your evidence.
Yes at Jesus baptism you mean ?
“Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.”
Luke 3:21-22 KJV
the Father is still in heaven ,
The son is still on earth revealing the unknown God in the flesh to man so they can see and know and believe in him
the holy spirit is Gods presence with and in the son on earth .
They are one and we are called to be filled with the same spirit and become one with the lord in heaven who says he will also come live with us by the same process.
The father is still in heaven
Jesus the son was God showing himself to Mankind, and is now glorified as the king and high priest in heavens kingdom.
and the Holy Ghost is his spirit coming to make a home in us and with us while we walk through the world , until in the end when we approach or bodies death and he takes us home to the fathers house in heaven .
All I’m saying is God is one whether it’s the spirit or the son or father he is one and the same. So the father remains in heaven Jesus was manifest for a time in earth and the holy spirit is given even today through faith to believers.
if he’s in earth it doesn’t mean he’s not in heaven or if he goes into hell to overcome it doesn’t mean he’s not still on earth and heaven he transcends our limited thinking is all I mean to be saying
“Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.”
Luke 3:21-22 KJV
the Father is still in heaven ,
The son is still on earth revealing the unknown God in the flesh to man so they can see and know and believe in him
the holy spirit is Gods presence with and in the son on earth .
They are one and we are called to be filled with the same spirit and become one with the lord in heaven who says he will also come live with us by the same process.
The father is still in heaven
Jesus the son was God showing himself to Mankind, and is now glorified as the king and high priest in heavens kingdom.
and the Holy Ghost is his spirit coming to make a home in us and with us while we walk through the world , until in the end when we approach or bodies death and he takes us home to the fathers house in heaven .
All I’m saying is God is one whether it’s the spirit or the son or father he is one and the same. So the father remains in heaven Jesus was manifest for a time in earth and the holy spirit is given even today through faith to believers.
if he’s in earth it doesn’t mean he’s not in heaven or if he goes into hell to overcome it doesn’t mean he’s not still on earth and heaven he transcends our limited thinking is all I mean to be saying