Why Are Women Expected to be the Gatekeepers of Virginity?

[Lynx]

I think the bible is clearly against race mixing. That doesn't make God a racist unless you want to define the word "racist" that way. Pointing out that the bible says this doesn't make you a racist either....(again unless you want to use the word "racist" as a weapon to attack anyone who disagrees with you).

Chapter and verse on that?

Also, you gonna take it up with Moses? Or Solomon? Or... well, a lot of people. You got a lot of headwind to fight on this one.

 

[SimpleSheep]

Ok...
There's some generalizations that need to be understood.
Men's endocrine system produces high amounts of the hormone known as testosterone. Women have testosterone as well but no where near as much as men. And when women do produce high amounts of testosterone they need maintenance drugs to get them to stop.

But the thing about testosterone is that it makes men more aggressive than women in going after the things they desire. (Such as the desire to mate)

At young ages women tend to learn and are able to think more maturely than men at their same age.

That's the whole reason they are held to a higher standard. They don't have the desire to mate as strongly as men generally do. (There are exceptions) Women aren't without desire but it's not as strong as most men. Again it's because of testosterone levels...

Naturally occurring and not much could be done until recently....so tradition places most of these thoughts into society today.

I've read recently that women's testosterone levels are rising and men's are declining. I've heard of a lot of marriages where the man just doesn't want to do "it" anymore and the women are left unsatisfied.
Christian men are to lead the way...so wouldn't it make more sense for them to be held at a higher standard?

 

[JohnDB]

I've read recently that women's testosterone levels are rising and men's are declining. I've heard of a lot of marriages where the man just doesn't want to do "it" anymore and the women are left unsatisfied.
Christian men are to lead the way...so wouldn't it make more sense for them to be held at a higher standard?

A Ketubah is a contract the Jews used and still use to this day that spells out exactly and precisely what each of the two will do...one of the conditions spelled out was how many times per week physical intimacy was required with the duty of performance on the men and not the women. Usually if the husband had a physically demanding job there would be less performance required of him....but if he had an office job up to 5x per week wasn't unheard of.

There's a reason for this but it's complicated and I'm not a psychologist.

And especially when male testosterone levels drop off as men get older and the women's testosterone levels rise...it's best to be completely giving and understanding. Because he will likely treat the wife with the exact same treatment she gave him when the roles of desire reverse.

 

[seoulsearch]

I think the bible is clearly against race mixing. That doesn't make God a racist unless you want to define the word "racist" that way. Pointing out that the bible says this doesn't make you a racist either....(again unless you want to use the word "racist" as a weapon to attack anyone who disagrees with you).

Regarding the original question of why it's up to women to guard virginity...
Just look at the results. When women did guard virginity, things we going pretty well for society/civilization. When women stop doing this we see a the result. Why? It doesn't matter. It just is.

I vehemently disagree with your post on every level, but like all of us, you're entitled to your own opinion.

Was there ever a time when chastity belts were mandatory for men? (There could have been and maybe I missed it.)

But I personally believe it's been more of a matter of patriarchal control of women's sexuality.

And I have prayed for a long time for the blessing of marrying someone outside my race.

I've never dated someone of my own race, either. Not by conscious choice, that's just how it happened.

 

[JohnDB]

I vehemently disagree with your post on every level, but like all of us, you're entitled to your own opinion.

Was there ever a time when chastity belts were mandatory for men? (There could have been and maybe I missed it.)

But I personally believe it's been more of a matter of patriarchal control of women's sexuality.

And I have prayed for a long time for the blessing of marrying someone outside my race.

I've never dated someone of my own race, either. Not by conscious choice, that's just how it happened.

Race mixing was as old or older than Moses. God is not a respect or of persons.

What God hates is the mixing of believers and non-believers...that's the only thing He has ever said anything about.

 

[seoulsearch]

I think the bible is clearly against race mixing. That doesn't make God a racist unless you want to define the word "racist" that way. Pointing out that the bible says this doesn't make you a racist either....(again unless you want to use the word "racist" as a weapon to attack anyone who disagrees with you).

Regarding the original question of why it's up to women to guard virginity...
Just look at the results. When women did guard virginity, things we going pretty well for society/civilization. When women stop doing this we see a the result. Why? It doesn't matter. It just is.

The world started out with two people, Adam and Eve, whose genetics included the DNA blend for every race the earth has ever known.

Over time (the flood and tower of babel,) humans grouped together and settled in different regions, and some characteristics of the DNA blend were arguably separated.

It's interesting to see the world progressing back to blends being the most common situation now. How many people can claim to be purebred of any one race?

Even within my own family (who are white, so would adopting a child of another race be seen as a sin to you as well?,) there is a mixture of several different races. If you ask most people nowadays what their heritage is, they very rarely name just one race.

So if someone has ancestry that includes German, Italian, Scottish, and Irish, does that mean they can only marry a person of the exact same mix?

And if they marry someone who is "only" German, Italian, and Scottish, would you also see that as an unholy mixture of races?

 

[cinder]

Regarding the original question of why it's up to women to guard virginity...
Just look at the results. When women did guard virginity, things we going pretty well for society/civilization. When women stop doing this we see a the result. Why? It doesn't matter. It just is.

Exactly what metrics are you using for things going well for society / civilization? Because I'm not so sure it was a matter of women guarding virginity that made things so good as it was a matter of no matter how promiscuous the men were, they would only marry a woman who was believed to be a virgin. If you were a "bad girl", plenty of "good" men might visit your bed for the night, but few of them would do anything more than purchase your services to help you. In fairness though, if you weren't in the upper classes, you were treated pretty horribly by society / civilization regardless of you sex so I think there might be a better explanation for our current cultural issues than just women stopped guarding virginity.

 

[seoulsearch]

Ok...
There's some generalizations that need to be understood.
Men's endocrine system produces high amounts of the hormone known as testosterone. Women have testosterone as well but no where near as much as men. And when women do produce high amounts of testosterone they need maintenance drugs to get them to stop.

But the thing about testosterone is that it makes men more aggressive than women in going after the things they desire. (Such as the desire to mate)

At young ages women tend to learn and are able to think more maturely than men at their same age.

That's the whole reason they are held to a higher standard. They don't have the desire to mate as strongly as men generally do. (There are exceptions) Women aren't without desire but it's not as strong as most men. Again it's because of testosterone levels...

Naturally occurring and not much could be done until recently....so tradition places most of these thoughts into society today.

John,

I was just curious as to what your opinion is regarding the effects of socialization on male vs. female responses.

I had stated this in previous posts, but I am someone who never fully buys into what "science" tells us about testosterone, because these "measures" have no way of gauging the effect of the oppression and control of a woman's right to be sexually expressive.

From my very first post in this thread, I noted how even in my childhood church, women who were even assumed to engage in sexual expression were spoken of in a highly negative and derogatory way.

When I think of the differences between male and female sex drives or the aggression behind it, I'm not thinking about hormones. I'm thinking of things like, "What would have happened if women had been the ones putting spiked, metal cages on the men's sex organs in order to 'protect' them from any 'unauthorized usage.'"

Another reason why I think this way is because for whatever reason, from the time I was a kid, people were often telling me about their sexuality and the heartache it brought them (most commonly due to childhood abuse.) I'm certainly not any kind of therapist or professional, but what I observed is that many of the victims (and these days, it seems to happen to boys just as much as girls,) either wanted nothing to do with sex, or, more commonly (at least in those I've talked to,) became obsessed with it -- whether male or female.

For whatever reason, they thought the key to their own "healing" was through the very thing through which the damage had entered their lives.

One things studies on hormones can't tell us is how societal and religious attitudes, ALONG with normal biological function, affects people's sex drives as a whole. I personally believe that if women's sexuality had been treated the same way as men's throughout history, women would be proven to have just as strong of drives, but I could be wrong.

And even if a man and a woman ARE acting out, it may be for entirely different reasons.

The guys I've talked to were going after the physical act itself and a sense of sexual prowess as personal validation.

The women I've talked to were going after attention, love, or worth, as they had been taught from an early age that this was the only way to get it.

One thing that frustrates me about the studies of testosterone and estrogen is that they seem to assume a perfect, untouched subject who has never been subjected to any form of abuse or negativity regarding their sexuality and its expression. Sure, they can tell us about testosterone levels and what their effects MIGHT be, but they can't tell us, to put it bluntly, how much it's going to affect the sex drive/aggression level/response of someone who was being forcibly raped (male or female) in childhood.

This might just be me who is thinking this way, and it's one of the many things I wish God would show me in this lifetime, but I personally believe that the social conditioning aspect of sexuality often has a far greater influence than hormones.

Any thoughts on this?

(Everyone is invited to answer, of course, but this was a direct answer to John's post.)

 

[RodB651]

It's all vanity...

my comment is out of context and something like that.

 

[JohnDB]

John,

I was just curious as to what your opinion is regarding the effects of socialization on male vs. female responses.

I had stated this in previous posts, but I am someone who never fully buys into what "science" tells us about testosterone, because these "measures" have no way of gauging the effect of the oppression and control of a woman's right to be sexually expressive.

From my very first post in this thread, I noted how even in my childhood church, women who were even assumed to engage in sexual expression were spoken of in a highly negative and derogatory way.

When I think of the differences between male and female sex drives or the aggression behind it, I'm not thinking about hormones. I'm thinking of things like, "What would have happened if women had been the ones putting spiked, metal cages on the men's sex organs in order to 'protect' them from any 'unauthorized usage.'"

Another reason why I think this way is because for whatever reason, from the time I was a kid, people were often telling me about their sexuality and the heartache it brought them (most commonly due to childhood abuse.) I'm certainly not any kind of therapist or professional, but what I observed is that many of the victims (and these days, it seems to happen to boys just as much as girls,) either wanted nothing to do with sex, or, more commonly (at least in those I've talked to,) became obsessed with it -- whether male or female.

For whatever reason, they thought the key to their own "healing" was through the very thing through which the damage had entered their lives.

One things studies on hormones can't tell us is how societal and religious attitudes, ALONG with normal biological function, affects people's sex drives as a whole. I personally believe that if women's sexuality had been treated the same way as men's throughout history, women would be proven to have just as strong of drives, but I could be wrong.

And even if a man and a woman ARE acting out, it may be for entirely different reasons.

The guys I've talked to were going after the physical act itself and a sense of sexual prowess as personal validation.

The women I've talked to were going after attention, love, or worth, as they had been taught from an early age that this was the only way to get it.

One thing that frustrates me about the studies of testosterone and estrogen is that they seem to assume a perfect, untouched subject who has never been subjected to any form of abuse or negativity regarding their sexuality and its expression. Sure, they can tell us about testosterone levels and what their effects MIGHT be, but they can't tell us, to put it bluntly, how much it's going to affect the sex drive/aggression level/response of someone who was being forcibly raped (male or female) in childhood.

This might just be me who is thinking this way, and it's one of the many things I wish God would show me in this lifetime, but I personally believe that the social conditioning aspect of sexuality often has a far greater influence than hormones.

Any thoughts on this?

(Everyone is invited to answer, of course, but this was a direct answer to John's post.)

We have become a highly sexualized society...
Sex has always sold (Ashera poles)
But since the "sexual revolution" the normal people lost...

Today it's all about homosexuality, bisexuality, and transgenderism and non-binary....and how young is too young to explore your sexuality. Yuck!
It's easier to find porn than an instructional video on cheesecake or popcorn.
"Free love" has turned into no love at all.

.

 

[JohnDB]

There is a reason single parent families are the largest demographic in America with generational curses transferred to each successive generation because of the unwillingness to extend grace, mercy, forgiveness, and love to another.

Today love means a demand of " worship me and make me feel good or else".

And all this porn is making people desensitized with the endorphins from normal sex to the point where normal sex is insufficient any longer....but nothing really can either.

Children getting sexualized and groomed into being sexual deviants is almost non-stop these days. When half the female graduating class of high school has either had at least one child or is currently pregnant...there's an issue right there. And supposedly this was one of the better high schools in town.

These days and in days past women used sex as a tool of manipulation. I see nothing in today's society to disuabuse me of that notion. When children are considered accessories that bring in money through paternity suits or welfare checks...and somehow a decent human being is supposed to be raised well in that sort of environment?

This is the "it's all about me and my feelings" generation... been getting that way for a while now and getting worse. Of course parents want their daughters to remain virginal...any illegitimate children somehow reflects on their poor parenting skills. As long as boys stay out of jail they are gold supposedly. They could have fathered a dozen kids but it doesn't show as much as a girl's pregnancy

 

[Sculpt]

I think the bible is clearly against race mixing. That doesn't make God a racist unless you want to define the word "racist" that way. Pointing out that the bible says this doesn't make you a racist either....(again unless you want to use the word "racist" as a weapon to attack anyone who disagrees with you).

How is the bible clearly against "race" mixing? Please be specific: what books, chapters/verses.

 

[Lanolin]

ok weird I guess ppl talking about something else here entirely.

I dont think high school pregnancies are anything to be alarmed about when years ago many children did not even get to even go to high school when they reached their teens. They be came parents in their teens because they just were at stage of adulthood where the hormones were the highest and most fertile and they were sexually mature.

That is just biology in many respects!!

What would happen is that their parents didnt then suddenly disown them for being pregnant! Or force them to kill their own children.. They helped raise the grandchildren. And thats what grandparents are for.

 

[Lanolin]

That being said, it used to be you were engaged or betrothed when from by your parents from birth anyway, theyd already figured out who you were meant to marry. They would go to the local matchmaker and make it so you met someone suitable.

Nowadays ppl have other priorities, plus nobody likes arranged marriages that much. haha

 

[Lanolin]

I remember in primary school kids would pick out boyfriends for me. Theyd say oh you should go with so and so..and I would be like what. At age 9 a lot of girls would already 'gone around' with dozens of boyfriends...I somehow bypassed all that. At 13 some girls had already gotten pregnant.

I remember playing 'mothers and fathers' was a role playing game I used to want to play but nobody was that interested at school. I knew that people and animals mated and thats how they got babies. It wasnt anything bizarre. I had aunties and uncles who got married, and then had children. But there was never any pressure for me to do the same. Having babies is hard work, dont I know it..though my neighbour said she wanted a big family of 4 children just like my family. Im like ok but its not really that fun being one of four sometimes. Exhausting for a mother, but she was those motherly types that just really wanted lots of children.

You can be a mother in other ways though it doesnt mean you have to give birth necessarily makes you a mother. (Jesus said whoever obeys thw word of God is the same as a mother, brother or sister)
I guess some people are still told babies are bought by the stork or found in the cabbage patch? You have to wonder what peoples sex education is for them not to even make the connection.

 

[JohnDB]

ok weird I guess ppl talking about something else here entirely.

I dont think high school pregnancies are anything to be alarmed about when years ago many children did not even get to even go to high school when they reached their teens. They be came parents in their teens because they just were at stage of adulthood where the hormones were the highest and most fertile and they were sexually mature.

That is just biology in many respects!!

What would happen is that their parents didnt then suddenly disown them for being pregnant! Or force them to kill their own children.. They helped raise the grandchildren. And thats what grandparents are for.

Ummmmm
When 14 year olds know 5 types of birth control methods and three forms of sexuality without even a pause but directions for making a pot roast supper are way beyond anything they would want to attempt...

That's a problem.

 

[seoulsearch]

Ok...
There's some generalizations that need to be understood.
Men's endocrine system produces high amounts of the hormone known as testosterone. Women have testosterone as well but no where near as much as men. And when women do produce high amounts of testosterone they need maintenance drugs to get them to stop.

But the thing about testosterone is that it makes men more aggressive than women in going after the things they desire. (Such as the desire to mate)

At young ages women tend to learn and are able to think more maturely than men at their same age.

That's the whole reason they are held to a higher standard. They don't have the desire to mate as strongly as men generally do. (There are exceptions) Women aren't without desire but it's not as strong as most men. Again it's because of testosterone levels...

Naturally occurring and not much could be done until recently....so tradition places most of these thoughts into society today.

I know this was originally all one post, but I broke it into two because I didn't want any of the crucial points to be cut off when readers skim this post.

The thing that frustrates me about the study of hormones (testosterone and estrogen) is that there seems to be a lot more emphasis on these chemicals themselves (and the drugs that will raise or lower the levels of them in a person's system) rather than looking at some of the underlying social conditioning that might be the biggest piece of the puzzle.

What's that? Your wife doesn't want to have sex? Let's just give her some pills and we'll get that switch turned on (just like a robot.)

Here's an example:

Let's say that Brother Bill and Sister Sally have been married 10 years, and they go for counseling because Sally isn't interested in sex as much as Bill would like her to be.

Sally then receives a somber lecture about male testosterone and a good long explanation about men's needs. Their church even goes to helpful lengths to explain that God made men visual, and that Sally, as a wife, should be responding to her husband's desires. The doctor who is counseling them decides that the best course of action is to put Sally on prescription medication that is supposed to increase her desire.

There you go, problem all solved!!!

Yeah, right.

Here's the thing: no one has even bothered scratching the surface of the fact that Bill was molested by a camp counselor when he was 9 (and due to being a man, he's told Sally but refuses to tell the doctor or their pastor about this.) He now has a hyper interest in sex because he was abused by a male counselor, and he feels that having as much straight sex as possible with his wife is the cure to making him feel like a real man, because ever since that terrible summer, he has always doubted his masculinity.

Sally had a stepfather who, from a young age, told her that she was "special" and because of this, she would be allowed to stay up late and watch "special" movies with him.

The bottom line is that even though Bill and Sally have a Christian marriage (and both of these examples are based on people I once knew in real life,) Bill is using sex to try to erase his shame, and Sally is avoiding sex because it causes her to feel even MORE shame. These are the things that no one talks about, and yet they seem to be what more and more people are marrying into. Getting married or even having an intimate relationship with a spouse doesn't just "fix" the problem. In some people, it can even make things even worse. And then people condemn those who find it unbearable and eventually leave the marriage.

No amount of pills or drugs are going to make Sally feel less resentful towards Bill for making her feel more ashamed, nor will it make Bill feel less resentful towards Sally for not meeting his needs in order to "help him feel like a man."

So when they finally decide to divorce, they are criticized, condemned, and ostracized by their church -- but yet the church has no idea what's going on because Sally and Bill (understandably) are too ashamed to tell anyone what happened to them. Nor should they feel obligated to do so.

I understand that biology and hormones have their place and have an undeniable influence, but what frustrates me is that I hear people talk about hormones, biology, and "God making men visual creatures" but never ask or the kinds of questions that will actually start digging at the real roots of the problem.

And then there's the issue of, how do we pull up that root once we find it and give people a fresh start? (And fighting chance to hold on to their marriages.) Even churches seem unable to do this.

How can we be sensitive to people's needs and privacy as we help them heal, recover, and move on from such terrible crimes that were committed against them instead of just handing them pills?

This is the part that I find myself asking God about continuously.

 

[seoulsearch]

P.S. I should add a disclaimer here: when I make up examples involving "real people," I change any identifying details.

I just wanted to assure everyone that I keep things anonymous, and even the people whom my examples are based on wouldn't immediately recognize themselves as the inspiration.

Tragically, I have also heard about many people who have been through very similar things, so the examples I use are also often based on a mix of people (not just one) whom I have known, or on things I have seen (documentaries) or read (interviews.)

 

[JohnDB]

I know this was originally all one post, but I broke it into two because I didn't want any of the crucial points to be cut off when readers skim this post.

The thing that frustrates me about the study of hormones (testosterone and estrogen) is that there seems to be a lot more emphasis on these chemicals themselves (and the drugs that will raise or lower the levels of them in a person's system) rather than looking at some of the underlying social conditioning that might be the biggest piece of the puzzle.

What's that? Your wife doesn't want to have sex? Let's just give her some pills and we'll get that switch turned on (just like a robot.)

Here's an example:

Let's say that Brother Bill and Sister Sally have been married 10 years, and they go for counseling because Sally isn't interested in sex as much as Bill would like her to be.

Sally then receives a somber lecture about male testosterone and a good long explanation about men's needs. Their church even goes to helpful lengths to explain that God made men visual, and that Sally, as a wife, should be responding to her husband's desires. The doctor who is counseling them decides that the best course of action is to put Sally on prescription medication that is supposed to increase her desire.

There you go, problem all solved!!!

Yeah, right.

Here's the thing: no one has even bothered scratching the surface of the fact that Bill was molested by a camp counselor when he was 9 (and due to being a man, he's told Sally but refuses to tell the doctor or their pastor about this.) He now has a hyper interest in sex because he was abused by a male counselor, and he feels that having as much straight sex as possible with his wife is the cure to making him feel like a real man, because ever since that terrible summer, he has always doubted his masculinity.

Sally had a stepfather who, from a young age, told her that she was "special" and because of this, she would be allowed to stay up late and watch "special" movies with him.

The bottom line is that even though Bill and Sally have a Christian marriage (and both of these examples are based on people I once knew in real life,) Bill is using sex to try to erase his shame, and Sally is avoiding sex because it causes her to feel even MORE shame. These are the things that no one talks about, and yet they seem to be what more and more people are marrying into. Getting married or even having an intimate relationship with a spouse doesn't just "fix" the problem. In some people, it can even make things even worse. And then people condemn those who find it unbearable and eventually leave the marriage.

No amount of pills or drugs are going to make Sally feel less resentful towards Bill for making her feel more ashamed, nor will it make Bill feel less resentful towards Sally for not meeting his needs in order to "help him feel like a man."

So when they finally decide to divorce, they are criticized, condemned, and ostracized by their church -- but yet the church has no idea what's going on because Sally and Bill (understandably) are too ashamed to tell anyone what happened to them. Nor should they feel obligated to do so.

I understand that biology and hormones have their place and have an undeniable influence, but what frustrates me is that I hear people talk about hormones, biology, and "God making men visual creatures" but never ask or the kinds of questions that will actually start digging at the real roots of the problem.

And then there's the issue of, how do we pull up that root once we find it and give people a fresh start? (And fighting chance to hold on to their marriages.) Even churches seem unable to do this.

How can we be sensitive to people's needs and privacy as we help them heal, recover, and move on from such terrible crimes that were committed against them instead of just handing them pills?

This is the part that I find myself asking God about continuously.

I get what you are saying and asking about now.

And this is going into what I've talked about already but didn't focus in on it...(now I remember.... been a while since I was single)

EVERYONE comes into a marriage as a previously injured person. (Especially in today's hypersexualized society)

Bill and Sally shouldn't get married if they can't get past their previous injuries. If Sally can't bug Bill for physical intimacy so often that he begins to avoid going home... There's issues in the marriage and because both are happy as newlyweds they won't see it. But it's already there.

Physical intimacy is an expected part of marriage. But that comes as a natural extension of emotional intimacy. Sally holds all of Bills secret fears and ambitions and wants...and vice versa. It's when a counselor is needed at all there is a problem. Why doesn't Bill know about Sally's history? Why does Sally not understand that Bill isn't her stepfather and this is a completely different situation than that? This is marriage.

Marriage is more than a piece of paper or fancy words said in front of a preacher. It's two people becoming one. One in unity in ALL things. The mistrustful, fear, selfishness and other negative emotions are gone within a marriage...and if they aren't...don't get married.

Of course hormones drive our actions... you are hungry because of them. You drink when thirsty.... because of hormones. Sleep is also because of them.

If your endocrine system makes you feel that you are still hungry even after a big meal... you are likely going to be diabetic and overweight and fearful about not having enough food. Normal reaction to life long feelings. You know that you shouldn't be hungry but after a big meal the feelings fade enough that you aren't ravenous....just simple hunger that you can withstand.

Same thing with testosterone...it's a driving factor of aggressive behavior...in business and in a personal relationship.

 

[JohnDB]

I get sick when I hear about "two wounded souls coming together in love to make a family".... ugghhhh

Two wounded souls make for the start of a Ward in a hospital for wounded souls...not a functional family.

Sure they might want love...it's normal to do so. But they need to use that desire to be well and to get well. Not depend on someone else to make them whole.

Two people independent and complete joining together in complete unity make a marriage...
Anything else is an exercise in torture.