The Falling Away - pre-trib rapture or ???

[FreeGrace2]

Tell that to Paul. Acts 24:15, 1 Cor 15:23 are from Him. 1 Thess 4 is from him and there is NO mention of Jesus taking anyone to heaven.

And Rev 20:5 shows the FIRST (single) resurrection is after the Trib.

No mention of sandals. So we can definately conclude all the saints were barefoot.

What in the world do "sandals" have to do with anything. Are you ok?

So bet the farm on it

I have already bet the farm on the Bible.

I would suggest the same for you. Esp the verses above which clearly prove that there is only 1 resurrection for believers and that occurs at the end of the Trib when Christ returns to end it at the battle of Armageddon and sets up His millennial reign.

You CAN bet the farm on that.

I suspect that many of the hard core pretribbers will have a severe challenge to their faith, since they are so convinced that the Bible teaches a pretrib trip to heaven. When it finally becomes clear that the Trib is in full swing, what's that going to do to their faith in the Bible? Can't be good.

otoh, if somehow my understanding is flawed, and there is a pretrib trip to heaven, what does that do to my faith? Absolutely nothing.

Why would anyone WANT to experience the Trib? Worst time EVER on earth.

If we are now in the Trib, or soon to be, as current events highly suggest, the only thing I'll look forward to is seeing the 2 Witnesses in action. That will be exciting.

Everything else will be terrifying. You can bet the farm on that as well.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Sure. 2 Thess 2:1-3. But, do you have eyes to see?

"""There are none. .......at lest in 40 years of study, nobody has yet to find one"""

Clearly this is an admission that you do NOT have eyes to see or ears to hear.

Must be true then

You had an opportunity to correct me.

You've been corrected many many times. And even in this very post. See the verses above. They prove you wrong, but you refuse to see or hear the truth.

 

[Absolutely]

Tell that to Paul. Acts 24:15, 1 Cor 15:23 are from Him. 1 Thess 4 is from him and there is NO mention of Jesus taking anyone to heaven.

And Rev 20:5 shows the FIRST (single) resurrection is after the Trib.

What in the world do "sandals" have to do with anything. Are you ok?


I have already bet the farm on the Bible.

I would suggest the same for you. Esp the verses above which clearly prove that there is only 1 resurrection for believers and that occurs at the end of the Trib when Christ returns to end it at the battle of Armageddon and sets up His millennial reign.

You CAN bet the farm on that.

I suspect that many of the hard core pretribbers will have a severe challenge to their faith, since they are so convinced that the Bible teaches a pretrib trip to heaven. When it finally becomes clear that the Trib is in full swing, what's that going to do to their faith in the Bible? Can't be good.

otoh, if somehow my understanding is flawed, and there is a pretrib trip to heaven, what does that do to my faith? Absolutely nothing.

Why would anyone WANT to experience the Trib? Worst time EVER on earth.

If we are now in the Trib, or soon to be, as current events highly suggest, the only thing I'll look forward to is seeing the 2 Witnesses in action. That will be exciting.

Everything else will be terrifying. You can bet the farm on that as well.

"""I have already bet the farm on the Bible"""

A safe nothing burger answer.


"""And Rev 20:5 shows the FIRST (single) resurrection is after the Trib.""""
Nothing of the sort.
You made it say that.
The niv says it. Run with it. You embrace error anyway.

"""Tell that to Paul. Acts 24:15, 1 Cor 15:23 are from Him"""

Are you aware of " lying by omission"
Over and over you omit the pretrib rapture verses and think by omitting sections of the bible you have " proven" something.

You have not made a single point.

Only that you are clueless to my example of your establishing doctrine via omissions.

But think real hard and do not bet the farm on the fact that we DO NOT KNOW IF SANDALS WERE/ARE WORN IN HEAVEN.
(there... since you deflected and were confused on "bet the farm")

So establish your "show me where" biblically ,and not on your " educated guesses" based on OMISSIONS.

SEVERAL of your "power points", roll eyes, are omission nothing burgers.

But several of you thing you got a gem in rev 20 that AFTER THE GT there is a resurrection of beheaded saints. And then make a grand canyon leap of " lookey here that is the only resurrection
Therefore it is the first resurrection"...nonsense.

Have any of you looked at that CONTEXT????
ANY OF YOU?????

Here lets get some truth into the equasion.
Rev 19
( pssst just before your supposed event of the dead raised, and no prior resurrection is possible.)

Read it slowly
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
20
1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
NOW NOTE JESUS HAS ALREADY COME TO EARTH FOR SOME TIME BEFORE YOUR MADE UP 1st resurrection.

How ridiculous can that possibly be? Your workbook has the saints resurrected to meet the white horses.SO YOUR DEAL IS IMPOSSIBLE

ACCORDING TO THE ERRONEOUS POSTRIB RAPTURE WORKBOOK, THE RAPTURE HAPPENS AT THE MOMENT JESUS Descends WITH RIDERLESS HORSES AND THOSE RESURRECTED SAINTS MOUNT THOSE HORSES IN THE SKY.

THAT is the postrib rapture doctrine..


SO...ARE YOU AWARE... YOU JUST DESTROYED YOUR OWN DOCTRINE.

ahem....just cease
your deal is in ashes friend.

I struck the core down.
Learn to incorporate verses.
Stop omitting context and running with teachers that i can debunk like shooting ducks in a barrel.

A bible

That is the key.

 

[Absolutely]

FreeGrace2 said:
Sure. 2 Thess 2:1-3. But, do you have eyes to see?

Clearly this is an admission that you do NOT have eyes to see or ears to hear.


You've been corrected many many times. And even in this very post. See the verses above. They prove you wrong, but you refuse to see or hear the truth.

2 thes 2 : 1-3???

Thats it?

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

what do you think those verses do to help your position.

A falling away first???
We all know that happens...seves either side of the debate.

Man of sin revealed first?
Again serves either side.

Obama was revealed, even told us the evil he planned for america YEARS BEFORE HE TOOK POWER.

you have not touched on anything.

We all can see those verses

 

[Absolutely]

"""You've been corrected many many times. And even in this very post. See the verses above."""

Comical

I handily put all that in proper perspective.

But in your circles that nothing burger is some game changer.

Comical

 

[Absolutely]

FreeGrace2 said:
Sure. 2 Thess 2:1-3. But, do you have eyes to see?

Clearly this is an admission that you do NOT have eyes to see or ears to hear.


You've been corrected many many times. And even in this very post. See the verses above. They prove you wrong, but you refuse to see or hear the truth.

Yet another opportunity you squandered to present at least one power point.

Instead you go after me personally.

Revealing you have no traction or standing

All you know is to oppose vigorously, the pretrib rapture doctrine.

Which I defend with ease.

 

[Absolutely]

Yet another opportunity you squandered to present at least one power point.

Instead you go after me personally.

Revealing you have no traction or standing

All you know is to oppose vigorously, the pretrib rapture doctrine.

Which I defend with ease.

Yes
A bible

That is the game changer

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Sure. 2 Thess 2:1-3. But, do you have eyes to see?

Clearly this is an admission that you do NOT have eyes to see or ears to hear.

2 thes 2 : 1-3???
Thats it?

Of course it is. But one needs to OPEN their eyes and ears to recognize it.

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

what do you think those verses do to help your position.

A falling away first???
We all know that happens...seves either side of the debate.

Go ahead and keep your eyes/ears closed if you want.

But, in v.1 the "coming of our Lord" is a clear reference to the Second Advent.
And "our being gathered unto Him" is a clear reference to what we call the rapture.

That verse alone has sunk your theory.

But, there's morel

Man of sin revealed first?
Again serves either side.

Your comments are delusional. The falling away and man of sin revealed first do NOT serve your side. They sink your boat.

But, again, your eyes and ears need to be open to grasp that.

Obama was revealed, even told us the evil he planned for america YEARS BEFORE HE TOOK POWER.

Irrevevant.

you have not touched on anything.

v.1 did. But you can't see or hear it. Open those heavy lids and take your fingers out of your ears.

We all can see those verses

You sure aren't.

v.3 is clearly telling us that "that day", which is the Second Advent will NOT come until the Trib occurs, which is when the "man of sin" is revealed.

What do you think v..1 is referring to by "coming of our Lord" and "our being gathered to Him"?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yet another opportunity you squandered to present at least one power point.

Instead you go after me personally.

By telling you that your eyes/ears are closed??

Which I defend with ease.

You haven't defended anything.

 

[Absolutely]

FreeGrace2 said:
Sure. 2 Thess 2:1-3. But, do you have eyes to see?

Clearly this is an admission that you do NOT have eyes to see or ears to hear.

Of course it is. But one needs to OPEN their eyes and ears to recognize it.


Go ahead and keep your eyes/ears closed if you want.

But, in v.1 the "coming of our Lord" is a clear reference to the Second Advent.
And "our being gathered unto Him" is a clear reference to what we call the rapture.

That verse alone has sunk your theory.

But, there's morel


Your comments are delusional. The falling away and man of sin revealed first do NOT serve your side. They sink your boat.

But, again, your eyes and ears need to be open to grasp that.


Irrevevant.


v.1 did. But you can't see or hear it. Open those heavy lids and take your fingers out of your ears.


You sure aren't.

v.3 is clearly telling us that "that day", which is the Second Advent will NOT come until the Trib occurs, which is when the "man of sin" is revealed.

What do you think v..1 is referring to by "coming of our Lord" and "our being gathered to Him"?

""Your comments are delusional. The falling away and man of sin revealed first do NOT serve your side. They sink your boat.

But, again, your eyes and ears need to be open to grasp that."""

I took the time to not only show it to you, but show you where IT IS NO SMOKING GUN....HELLO...WE BOTH INCORPORATE IT.

IOW...you have no point.

Then you give some delusional answer and call me delusional

Comical

 

[Absolutely]

By telling you that your eyes/ears are closed??


You haven't defended anything.

...he says standing in ashes.

The comical part is you are unaware of what i did to your doctrine


Hilarious.

I will chuckle all day at your oblivious defeat.

now that is funny

 

[FreeGrace2]

"""And Rev 20:5 shows the FIRST (single) resurrection is after the Trib.""""
Nothing of the sort.
You made it say that.

This is totally delusional. I haven't made the Bible say anything. I've just quoted it directly.

You just keep proving that your eyes and ears are closed tightly.

The niv says it. Run with it. You embrace error anyway.

OK, so you don't like the NIV. So what?

So, here's more translations of Rev 20:5. Take your pick.

Berean Study Bible
The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection.

Berean Literal Bible
The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years shall have been completed. This is the first resurrection.

King James Bible
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

New King James Version
But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

New American Standard Bible
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

NASB 1995
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

NASB 1977
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

Amplified Bible
The rest of the dead [the non-believers] did not come to life again until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

Christian Standard Bible
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

This is just a sample. EVERY translation at biblehub.com says the same thing.

The tribulational martyrs are in the FIRST RESURRECTION.

"""Tell that to Paul. Acts 24:15, 1 Cor 15:23 are from Him"""

Are you aware of " lying by omission"
Over and over you omit the pretrib rapture verses and think by omitting sections of the bible you have " proven" something.

Delusional. You are the one who has NO verse that says Jesus resurrects and taken then to heaven. How's that for "omission"?

You have not made a single point.

I have. But you are delusional. Very.

Only that you are clueless to my example of your establishing doctrine via omissions.

Said the one who has NO VERSES ABOUT JESUS TAKING RESURRECTED PEOPLE TO HEAVEN.

But think real hard and do not bet the farm on the fact that we DO NOT KNOW IF SANDALS WERE/ARE WORN IN HEAVEN.
(there... since you deflected and were confused on "bet the farm")

Why would or should I care about sandals in heaven? That's just delusional thinking.

So establish your "show me where" biblically ,and not on your " educated guesses" based on OMISSIONS.

I did. But you are delusional.

Here lets get some truth into the equasion.
Rev 19
( pssst just before your supposed event of the dead raised, and no prior resurrection is possible.)

Read it slowly

What follows doesn't even include the preparation of the wedding supper. Why did you OMIT that? It proves that it hasn't happened YET.

SO...ARE YOU AWARE... YOU JUST DESTROYED YOUR OWN DOCTRINE.

Your delusion is growing. By leaps and bounds.

 

[FreeGrace2]

now that is funny

At this point, there is no sense in even trying to communicate with such a delusional person.

 

[Absolutely]

"""Your comments are delusional. The falling away and man of sin revealed first do NOT serve your side. They sink your boat."""

I explained to you my position.

You have no clue.

Even after i took the time to explain explicitly WHY NEITHER SIDE HAS A SMOKING GUN.

YOU CAN'T READ OR WHAT?????
COMPREHENSION PROBLEM????

NAH. Nobody is that dense.

 

[Absolutely]

Lets see... The rapture ,1st resurrection ,according to postribs ,is at the second coming.

But then they have some need to inflate the bible to place the 1st resurrection days later in rev 20, as a second, 1st resurrection.

Lets see...what is that promise to those changing the book of revelation?

Remember, you heard it here first.

Got bible?

 

[Absolutely]

...he says standing in ashes.

The comical part is you are unaware of what i did to your doctrine


Hilarious.

I will chuckle all day at your oblivious defeat.

now that is funny

He is oblivious.

Lol

 

[Absolutely]

"""v.3 is clearly telling us that "that day", which is the Second Advent will NOT come until the Trib occurs, which is when the "man of sin" is revealed.

What do you think v..1 is referring to by "coming of our Lord" and "our being gathered to Him"?"""

Here let me help you.

Think about word meaning.
Think " every word has meaning"
Think " definition"

Now look up " revealed"

See if it means something other than "revealed."

Once you look it up, embrace it, and acquire that UNDERSTANDING we can proceed.

That would be refreshing as i have never debated a postrib rapturist that knew what "revealed" means.

Get back to me when you acquire that knowledge

 

[FreeGrace2]

NAH. Nobody is that dense.

Yes, there sure are some who are.

Denying what 2 Thess 2:1 plainly says is.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Lets see... The rapture ,1st resurrection ,according to postribs ,is at the second coming.

According to the Bible. You've been shown, but again, your eyes and ears need to be opened.

But then they have some need to inflate the bible to place the 1st resurrection days later in rev 20, as a second, 1st resurrection.

Where do you get this bit of nonsense? There is only 1 resurrection. And it is actually described as the FIRST one in Rev 20:5. As I showed from many translations.

Got bible?

Why would you bother? Your reading skills are greatly hampered by your closed eyes.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"""v.3 is clearly telling us that "that day", which is the Second Advent will NOT come until the Trib occurs, which is when the "man of sin" is revealed.

What do you think v..1 is referring to by "coming of our Lord" and "our being gathered to Him"?"""

Here let me help you.

This should be fun.

Think about word meaning.

I suggest that you do.

Think " every word has meaning"
Think " definition"

Can YOU?

Now look up " revealed"

See if it means something other than "revealed."

Why can't you just answer my question about what "coming" and "gathered" refers to? Why this distraction? Smokescreen?

Once you look it up, embrace it, and acquire that UNDERSTANDING we can proceed.

So, you can't answer what "coming' and "gathering" means.

That would be refreshing as i have never debated a postrib rapturist that knew what "revealed" means.

Get back to me when you acquire that knowledge

This is pathetic. You can't explain what 2 words in 2 Thess 2:1 refer to, so you try to change the subject.

apokaluptó: to uncover, reveal
Original Word: ἀποκαλύπτω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apokaluptó
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ok-al-oop'-to)
Definition: to uncover, reveal
Usage: I uncover, bring to light, reveal.

OK, it means just what it says. No mystery here.

OK, you've had your smokescreen.

Now, are you able to explain what "coming" and "gathered" refer to in v.1?