Touchy Subject - Deliverance Ministry/Mental Disorders(and just my life..)

[vahn]

Crypto: If you had/have a spiritual problem, nothing apart from Jesus Christ is going to set it right.

I'm not saying all the issues we go through are physical in nature. But a Christian woman who is active in church, has a solid walk with God and tried every other avenue of treatment... That isn't a spiritual issue.

My own symptoms weren't spiritual, they were a reaction to years and years of abuse. The people who insisted it was demons really hurt me a lot. That's why I spoke up here. If it is a spiritual problem, no medication will solve it. But if it's a physical problem, putting blame on a person for not being a good enough Christian or not having enough faith is extremely detrimental.

I don't get how that could hurt you, you need to recognize that they exist, but not over obsess with it like I do sometimes.

Everything is generalized into the spiritual realm, isn't it? That isn't to say medication is bad, I take medication for mild anxiety and that's it. I've tried almost every anti-psychotic medication and its either turned me into a zombie or made things worse.

To add to your ending, I don't think anyone here believes that not being a good enough christian or having enough faith has any impact on how healthy you are.

Perhaps we will truly never understand everything whether it be the spirit of bi polar disorder; a spirit causing the physical problem; a curse; chemical imbalances from living in a broken world; or maybe even all of the above. There is still a healing in order and our imperfect minds perhaps cannot conceive all that we are trying to.

 

[tif]

I don't get how that could hurt you, you need to recognize that they exist, but not over obsess with it like I do sometimes.

Everything is generalized into the spiritual realm, isn't it? That isn't to say medication is bad, I take medication for mild anxiety and that's it. I've tried almost every anti-psychotic medication and its either turned me into a zombie or made things worse.

To add to your ending, I don't think anyone here believes that not being a good enough christian or having enough faith has any impact on how healthy you are.

Perhaps we will truly never understand everything whether it be the spirit of bi polar disorder; a spirit causing the physical problem; a curse; chemical imbalances from living in a broken world; or maybe even all of the above. There is still a healing in order and our imperfect minds perhaps cannot conceive all that we are trying to.

Well, for you to understand why that hurt me, I'll have to explain.

My dad was very physically, verbally and emotionally abusive to me throughout my childhood. I repressed the memories of the abuse until I was 15, when I began to have vivd flashbacks and nightmares of the abuse. A flashback is like a waking nightmare. It's seeing the trauma as if it's happening right in the moment.

I didn't know if what I was remembering was real or not. I didn't know if I just hated my dad or if the things I saw were real. I had few friends, and they left when I tried to talk about what had happened. I started to hurt myself physically because of the internal pain. I took over-the-counter medicines to try and numb what was happening. I was admitted to the ER on several occasions with heart attack-like symptoms, but no one knew about the abuse (because I stopped trying to tell people). I tried to take my own life at 18. My mom didn't know why all this was happening, and she kicked me out of the house.

That year, when I was 18, I came back to God. But I was still in an amazing amount of emotional pain. The trauma of the abuse, the trauma of losing my family, the pain of feeling completely alone in the world, it was so hard. I went to church each week on Monday, Wednesday, Friday and twice on Sundays, prayed daily, and tried to read my bible daily. I tried talking to a pastor about my ongoing anxiety and paralyzing fear, and (after a couple of minutes) he told me I needed to be in the word more and pray more. When I tried to tell him I already was as much as I could be, he told me to come to church more.

I was so sad and hurt, and angry that God would demand so much more of me than I could ever give.

Three people separately made it their business to tell me that psychiatric medications are "unbiblical." When I stopped my meds, I lost it. One of them eventually came back and apologized to me for her words.

And I can't count the people who have told me that I just need to rebuke the evil spirits and things like that. It is very, very hurtful. Especially when you DO pray and rebuke the spirits and NOTHING HAPPENS.

From all those types of conversations, the emphasis was only on WHAT I NEEDED TO DO. Which is ludicrous. And unbiblical. God's strength is sufficient for me. I live medication-free today by His grace and His grace alone, not because of something I did or an incantation I prayed or because I did more FOR God.

Sometimes, I think people need to just shut up and be there with a person when they're in pain. Mourn with them. Comfort them with their presence. And they shouldn't try to fix what they can't comprehend.

 

[vahn]

Well, for you to understand why that hurt me, I'll have to explain.

My dad was very physically, verbally and emotionally abusive to me throughout my childhood. I repressed the memories of the abuse until I was 15, when I began to have vivd flashbacks and nightmares of the abuse. A flashback is like a waking nightmare. It's seeing the trauma as if it's happening right in the moment.

I didn't know if what I was remembering was real or not. I didn't know if I just hated my dad or if the things I saw were real. I had few friends, and they left when I tried to talk about what had happened. I started to hurt myself physically because of the internal pain. I took over-the-counter medicines to try and numb what was happening. I was admitted to the ER on several occasions with heart attack-like symptoms, but no one knew about the abuse (because I stopped trying to tell people). I tried to take my own life at 18. My mom didn't know why all this was happening, and she kicked me out of the house.

That year, when I was 18, I came back to God. But I was still in an amazing amount of emotional pain. The trauma of the abuse, the trauma of losing my family, the pain of feeling completely alone in the world, it was so hard. I went to church each week on Monday, Wednesday, Friday and twice on Sundays, prayed daily, and tried to read my bible daily. I tried talking to a pastor about my ongoing anxiety and paralyzing fear, and (after a couple of minutes) he told me I needed to be in the word more and pray more. When I tried to tell him I already was as much as I could be, he told me to come to church more.

I was so sad and hurt, and angry that God would demand so much more of me than I could ever give.

Three people separately made it their business to tell me that psychiatric medications are "unbiblical." When I stopped my meds, I lost it. One of them eventually came back and apologized to me for her words.

And I can't count the people who have told me that I just need to rebuke the evil spirits and things like that. It is very, very hurtful. Especially when you DO pray and rebuke the spirits and NOTHING HAPPENS.

From all those types of conversations, the emphasis was only on WHAT I NEEDED TO DO. Which is ludicrous. And unbiblical. God's strength is sufficient for me. I live medication-free today by His grace and His grace alone, not because of something I did or an incantation I prayed or because I did more FOR God.

Sometimes, I think people need to just shut up and be there with a person when they're in pain. Mourn with them. Comfort them with their presence. And they shouldn't try to fix what they can't comprehend.

I see, I understand, but from what I have learned in my experience is that deliverance is a process and you cannot always expect immediate results.

 

[tif]

I never expected immediate results. I did expect SOME results, and I did not expect it to get worse.

What do you think was the single most helpful thing that happened, in all of that pain? Would you think people telling me it was demonic after ten minutes of conversation helped? The ones who told me to go off my meds? The ones who forced their (very limited and flawed) knowledge on me?

The thing that helped me most was one friend. His name was Brian, and he never once mentioned demons or possession. When I couldn't even read because I was so terrified, he read the bible to me. He prayed with me for healing. He played his guitar and sang songs of worship with me. And he did this between the hours of 5 and 7 AM, when my flashbacks and nightmares and anxiety were the worst. He never once made a move on me. And to this day, I've never met another Christian who would come out of a dead sleep to provide that kind of support even once, let alone 2-3 days a week for months. He also invited me to go to church with him, small bible studies, large bible studies. He introduced me to other women in Christ. And I thank God for sending my friend Brian, who showed me that not everyone was horrible and mean-spirited and judgmental.

 

[vahn]

Well, I don't think we(christians) can be possessed, just afflicted and influenced. We become more and more of who God originally wanted us to be even though we will never be perfect in this life. Your anxiety and nightmares weren't from God. And how did it get worse? In what way?

 

[AnandaHya]

I never expected immediate results. I did expect SOME results, and I did not expect it to get worse.

What do you think was the single most helpful thing that happened, in all of that pain? Would you think people telling me it was demonic after ten minutes of conversation helped? The ones who told me to go off my meds? The ones who forced their (very limited and flawed) knowledge on me?

The thing that helped me most was one friend. His name was Brian, and he never once mentioned demons or possession. When I couldn't even read because I was so terrified, he read the bible to me. He prayed with me for healing. He played his guitar and sang songs of worship with me. And he did this between the hours of 5 and 7 AM, when my flashbacks and nightmares and anxiety were the worst. He never once made a move on me. And to this day, I've never met another Christian who would come out of a dead sleep to provide that kind of support even once, let alone 2-3 days a week for months. He also invited me to go to church with him, small bible studies, large bible studies. He introduced me to other women in Christ. And I thank God for sending my friend Brian, who showed me that not everyone was horrible and mean-spirited and judgmental.

that is a truly wonderful. I'm so glad he was in your life and supported you in such a way. thank you for sharing how he was able to help you. Praise God, there is still hope for the world.

sometimes the best thing to do is to pray and let God help us. We should always place our trust in God and not what people think we should do, be or say. sometimes God tells us to go see doctors. most of the doctors I know love God too and will pray with you if you ask, its just most people don't think to ask. I think God gave us medicine and why should we refuse that gift if it helps us do His will and help others?

Trusting in God does not mean refusing help from other sources. Maybe that doctor is a person God sent to give you His gift of healing? Sometimes people try to out think God and it is better to just pray and listen. Then do what is right for the person, not some blanket statement that doesn't work.

 

[AnandaHya]

Well, I don't think we(christians) can be possessed, just afflicted and influenced. We become more and more of who God originally wanted us to be even though we will never be perfect in this life. Your anxiety and nightmares weren't from God. And how did it get worse? In what way?

i don't think christians can be possessed either but I do think Satan tries and tempt us and lead us away from God and His purpose for our lives. Even Jesus had to resist the devil and his temptation. read the account of what happened to Jesus in the desert. Just because there is darkness around you doesn't mean it is your fault or even anything you can do about it except pray and allow God to deal with it.

Sometimes it gets worse before it gets better. the visions get worse, the nightmares replay over and over again and you feel like its not working and your not doing enough and there is something wrong with you. if only you did more it would get better.

Its a trap that we should not let ourselves get snared in. Instead remember these Bible verses:

James 4:7-10
New King James Version (NKJV)

7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Lament and mourn and weep! Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up

Notice it did not tell you to do any thing except submit to God and Resist the devil and GOD will lift you up. you are cleansed through the blood of Jesus. through your FAITH in Him and His Grace. Remember God is our Heavenly Father all you have to do is call out to Him and He will answer. I think your friend was God's answer to your prayers. Stay blessed. have cuddle with my daughter....

 

[AnandaHya]

God's strength is sufficient for me. I live medication-free today by His grace and His grace alone, not because of something I did or an incantation I prayed or because I did more FOR God.

Sometimes, I think people need to just shut up and be there with a person when they're in pain. Mourn with them. Comfort them with their presence. And they shouldn't try to fix what they can't comprehend.

And those are truly the wisest words I've read in a while. I'm glad God gave you this understanding of His grace and mercy

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

i don't think christians can be possessed either but I do think Satan tries and tempt us and lead us away from God and His purpose for our lives. Even Jesus had to resist the devil and his temptation. read the account of what happened to Jesus in the desert. Just because there is darkness around you doesn't mean it is your fault or even anything you can do about it except pray and allow God to deal with it.

Sometimes it gets worse before it gets better. the visions get worse, the nightmares replay over and over again and you feel like its not working and your not doing enough and there is something wrong with you. if only you did more it would get better.

Its a trap that we should not let ourselves get snared in. Instead remember these Bible verses:

James 4:7-10
New King James Version (NKJV)

7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Lament and mourn and weep! Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up

Notice it did not tell you to do any thing except submit to God and Resist the devil and GOD will lift you up. you are cleansed through the blood of Jesus. through your FAITH in Him and His Grace. Remember God is our Heavenly Father all you have to do is call out to Him and He will answer. I think your friend was God's answer to your prayers. Stay blessed. have cuddle with my daughter....

True, a christian can not be posessed by a demon however, that does not mean that everyone will be instantly delivered from deeply embedded mental and emotional conditions that may have existed in this person's life for many years. Such issues are called "oppression" and they are the result Demonic forces which have attempted to force their wills upon us through their influence on people that walk in and out of our lives. For example: an absent or abusive parent, a sexual predator, etc.

As we are exposed to various stresses through out our lives, we develop various coping mechanisms in order to deal with these stressful situations. Over time these mechanisms become deeply embedded behavioral strongholds that may very well have some kind of sinful addiction attached such as doubt / depression, lust / fornication, etc.

Unfortunately many "believers" today, with their "have to have it now" mentalities, have adopted a mindset where everything and anything is the result of an indwelling bad spirit that must be cast out immediately. The simple truth is that must of the junk in a believers life are behavior strongholds that the believer tends to fall back into when the going get's tough. They have yet to learn how to place their complete trust in God and follow the leading of the indwelling Holy Spirit who's desire is to set you free from sin and strongholds through the power of sanctification. Unfortunately much of the modern has willingly tossed the basic teachings of sanctification into the garbage in exchange for doctrines of compromise which allow them to embrace sinful yet spiritually anemic lifestyles which has rendered the modern church spiritually powerless and useless.

 

[AnandaHya]

ah but sanctification is not something we do but really just building a relationship with our Lord and savior and being able to live in a manner that shows the world God's love to the world without the chains that bind us such as guilt, anger and other strongholds we built to protect us from the world and its hurts. it is learning to be brave and trust that God will protect us and not having to hide behind mask.

I hide behind the mask of intelligence. when I feel threaten I use big words to throw people off and get them to leave me alone. most people don't see past that and just leave. I think we as Christians have to learn to see behind others mask and just give each other hugs and love. Find ways to build each other up and heal instead of trying to tear down things we just allow God to heal and eventually when we feel brave enough perhaps we can lay down that mask and those chains and dance and sing that we are FREE and God loves us!

lol not sure if that made any sense but I'm just going to leave it and post a pretty picture instead of editing the words. lol

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

ah but sanctification is not something we do

Very true. Sanctification is the work of the Holy Spirit in us however, God can not nor will not sanctify us if we continually and willingly give into bad behavior that we know to be wrong. That's why consecration is so important. Consecration in and of itself can not sanctify you however, it does clean up the filth and distractions, thus making room for the Holy Spirit to accomplish his work in our lives.

 

[tif]

True, a christian can not be posessed by a demon however, that does not mean that everyone will be instantly delivered from deeply embedded mental and emotional conditions that may have existed in this person's life for many years. Such issues are called "oppression" and they are the result Demonic forces which have attempted to force their wills upon us through their influence on people that walk in and out of our lives. For example: an absent or abusive parent, a sexual predator, etc.

As we are exposed to various stresses through out our lives, we develop various coping mechanisms in order to deal with these stressful situations. Over time these mechanisms become deeply embedded behavioral strongholds that may very well have some kind of sinful addiction attached such as doubt / depression, lust / fornication, etc.

Unfortunately many "believers" today, with their "have to have it now" mentalities, have adopted a mindset where everything and anything is the result of an indwelling bad spirit that must be cast out immediately. The simple truth is that must of the junk in a believers life are behavior strongholds that the believer tends to fall back into when the going get's tough. They have yet to learn how to place their complete trust in God and follow the leading of the indwelling Holy Spirit who's desire is to set you free from sin and strongholds through the power of sanctification. Unfortunately much of the modern has willingly tossed the basic teachings of sanctification into the garbage in exchange for doctrines of compromise which allow them to embrace sinful yet spiritually anemic lifestyles which has rendered the modern church spiritually powerless and useless.

Read this:

Schizophrenia.com - Schizophrenia is a Brain Disease

I'm not saying that satan and his followers can't use their influence to make our lives worse. I'm saying that mental illness isn't a spiritual issue. Not unless you think OTHER physical illnesses are. Diseases that change the structure of the brain are DISEASES, not DEMONS.

Just because there is a spiritual cure does not mean it has a spiritual cause.

And if you want to argue your point further, try finding some biblical basis for your argument. Right now, what I'm seeing is a lot of "This is how I believe things are" and not a lot of "This is what the bible says about..."

 

[vahn]

Read this:

Schizophrenia.com - Schizophrenia is a Brain Disease

I'm not saying that satan and his followers can't use their influence to make our lives worse. I'm saying that mental illness isn't a spiritual issue. Not unless you think OTHER physical illnesses are. Diseases that change the structure of the brain are DISEASES, not DEMONS.

Just because there is a spiritual cure does not mean it has a spiritual cause.

And if you want to argue your point further, try finding some biblical basis for your argument. Right now, what I'm seeing is a lot of "This is how I believe things are" and not a lot of "This is what the bible says about..."

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

Why do so many people care where it comes from? It's obviously not from God.

 

[tif]

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

Why do so many people care where it comes from? It's obviously not from God.

Have you actually read Eph 6? It's about dealing with other people. "Children, obey your parents." "Slaves, obey your masters." "Masters, treat your slaves the same way. Do not threaten them." Etc. THEN it says, "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."

When I read this chapter, it's obvious to me that Paul isn't talking about physical issues. He himself wrote of a thorn that God refused to remove three times. Who says mental illness couldn't be a thorn, as well?

Some word studies:

flesh σάρξ sarx

1) flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts
2) the body

a) the body of a man
b) used of natural or physical origin, generation or relationship

1) born of natural generation​

c) the sensuous nature of man, "the animal nature"

1) without any suggestion of depravity
2) the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin
3) the physical nature of man as subject to suffering​

3) a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh) whether man or beast
4) the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God​

blood, αἷμα haima

1) blood

a) of man or animals
b) refers to the seat of life
c) of those things that resemble blood, grape juice​

2) blood shed, to be shed by violence, slay, murder​

The NLT translates it this way:

For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.​

When I read this passage, I see:

"Look, life isn't fair. Children, you still should obey your parents. Parents, I know they exasperate you, but don't be harsh with your kids. Slaves, it might be the hardest thing ever, but do what your master commands. And masters, treat those under you fairly. Even when life isn't fair and people mistreat you, take up your armor. It isn't people you're fighting; it's the principalities, the powers, the evil forces. Don't forget that, guys! Pray for each other, and pray for me."

I don't believe the passage you quoted touches on physical infirmities.

 

[vahn]

And why does it matter so much to you again?

 

[tif]

Why does it matter so much to YOU, vahn? I've already explained why it matters to me, personally.

And it also matters when you're working with individuals who have mental health diagnoses. When a person's brain structure has changed, sometimes medications are necessary. Telling someone who already has a problem with the way his brain works that it's all demons will not help anything, and may make things worse. Or dangerous. Perhaps deadly.

A person with a gunshot wound to the torso can't exactly think straight enough to hear a sermon. You help the person stabilize, you don't preach at him while he's bleeding to death. A person with serious mental illness might not be in a place where he can even comprehend your words.

There are many, many (too many) people who kill themselves every year.

nami.org

Suicide is the eleventh-leading cause of death in the Unites States and the third-leading cause of death for people ages 10-24 years. More than 90 percent of those who die by suicide have a diagnosable mental disorder.

Fewer than one-third of adults and one-half of children with a diagnosable mental disorder receive mental health services in a given year.​

Also, you don't want to sway over to the Church of Christ, Scientist belief system. This is some of what they believe:

The fundamental distinctive teaching of Christian Science is that creation is entirely spiritual and perfect and matter does not exist. Sin, sickness and death also do not exist; we only think they do. "The only reality of sin, sickness, or death is the awful fact that unrealities seem real to human, erring belief, until God strips off their disguise" (Science and Health, 472:27-29).

These core teachings are encapsulated in the "Scientific Statement of Being," which is read at every church service:
There is no life, truth, intelligence, nor substance in matter.
All is infinite Mind and its infinite manifestation, for God is All-in-all.
Spirit is immortal Truth; matter is mortal error.
Spirit is the real and eternal; matter is the unreal and temporal.
Spirit is God, and man is His image and likeness.
Therefore man is not material; he is spiritual. (S&H 468)

Christian Science teaches that Jesus is divine but not God, and that Jesus' human nature is a separate entity from the divine Christ. "Jesus Christ is not God, as Jesus himself declared, but is the Son of God" (Science and Health, 361:12-13). "Jesus is the name of the man who, more than all other men, has presented Christ, the true idea of God, healing the sick and sinning and destroying the power of death" (Science and Health, 473:10-17).​

 

[vahn]

It really doesn't. I couldn't care less what you believe much less anybody else. I've already put my life into God's hands.

 

[AnandaHya]

I think this is the point in the conversation that speaking to one another will not accomplish anything.

Vahn it is nice that you have put your trust in the Lord. If the Lord tells you to go see a doctor, I hope you listen. If He says just trust in Him, that is good as well. If any voices tell you to kill yourself or do something unbiblical. Say " the Lord rebuke you" and quote some scripture. IF that doesn't work get some help either from a pastor or a doctor. Some days I'm in over my head and I don't think it is a bad thing to ask for help.

Tif, I get what your talking about, but I don't think Vahn wants to hear it. Demons exist but most of the time what we have to deal with is not the demons but the damage they cause. They are like the guns in your gunshot analogy. They cause the wound but saying over and over again that you have a gunshoot wound will not help the person from bleeding to death. But you have to remember some people will faint at the sight of blood or even the thought of it, so we have to have compassion and allow them to work in a field that God has trained and taught them how to deal with so that all may Glorify the Lord.

Hope everyone has a blessed day.

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

Read this:

Schizophrenia.com - Schizophrenia is a Brain Disease

I'm not saying that satan and his followers can't use their influence to make our lives worse. I'm saying that mental illness isn't a spiritual issue. Not unless you think OTHER physical illnesses are. Diseases that change the structure of the brain are DISEASES, not DEMONS.

Just because there is a spiritual cure does not mean it has a spiritual cause.

And if you want to argue your point further, try finding some biblical basis for your argument. Right now, what I'm seeing is a lot of "This is how I believe things are" and not a lot of "This is what the bible says about..."

Tif,

God can and does heal. Nothing is too big for God. I have seen God heal cancer. If he can heal cancer he can heal this as well.

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

Read this:

Schizophrenia.com - Schizophrenia is a Brain Disease

I'm not saying that satan and his followers can't use their influence to make our lives worse. I'm saying that mental illness isn't a spiritual issue. Not unless you think OTHER physical illnesses are. Diseases that change the structure of the brain are DISEASES, not DEMONS.

Just because there is a spiritual cure does not mean it has a spiritual cause.

And if you want to argue your point further, try finding some biblical basis for your argument. Right now, what I'm seeing is a lot of "This is how I believe things are" and not a lot of "This is what the bible says about..."

These diseases were caused by chemical imbalances induced by stressful living conditions, ie. outside forces. High blood pressure and hyper tension are also diseases but their cause is two fold, stress and poor care for the body. Just because something has evolved into a disease does not make it final. Even disease must bow it's knee to the King of kings and Lord of lords.