The Falling Away - pre-trib rapture or ???
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Apparently you just can't read correctly.
But the real problem here is your inability to explain how BEHEADED people can "live and reign".
The ONLY ANSWER is that they are resurrected when Jesus comes back at the Second Advent. They sure can't "live and reign" BEFORE they are BEHEADED IN the Tribulation.
We KNOW from Acts 24:15 that there is only 1 resurrection of the saved.
We KNOW from 1 For 15:23 that after the firstfruits, being the resurrection of Jesus Christ, when He comes at the Second Advent, "those who belong to Him comprise the FIRST resurrection, which is stated clearly in Rev 20:5.
But the real problem here is your inability to explain how BEHEADED people can "live and reign".
The ONLY ANSWER is that they are resurrected when Jesus comes back at the Second Advent. They sure can't "live and reign" BEFORE they are BEHEADED IN the Tribulation.
We KNOW from Acts 24:15 that there is only 1 resurrection of the saved.
We KNOW from 1 For 15:23 that after the firstfruits, being the resurrection of Jesus Christ, when He comes at the Second Advent, "those who belong to Him comprise the FIRST resurrection, which is stated clearly in Rev 20:5.
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I said:
Every saved person from Adam on will be resurrected at the Second Advent, when Jesus returns to earth.
What you fail to grasp is that "the dead in Christ" are "those who belong to Him". You have NEVER provided an explanation of how they aren't the same group. Can you?
And as to your repeated "pretrib rapture" comments, you KNOW that no rapture verse shows Jesus taking anyone to heaven. Which is the total basis for your "pretrib" ideas.
In Rev 20:11-15 the GWTJ is for unbelievers only. The FIRST resurrection is mentioned in Rev 20:5, the verse that you have denied.
Acts 24:15 says there is A resurrection of both the saved and the unsaved. The saved are resurrected in the FIRST one, which is specifically mentioned in Rev 20:5, and are the saved. The second one is at the GWTJ.
I said:
1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
Where do you get "pre-" anything from this verse. It is very clear. In the single resurrection of the saved, Jesus is the firstfruits, as Savior and who was the first to receive a resurrection body. And followed by "those who belong to Him", an OBVIOUS reference to ALL saved people, from Adam on.
Or prove otherwise. From Scripture.
Prove it from Rev 19.
Prove it from Scripture. Clearly worded verses.
All you throw out are claims, but no actual verses.
I give clear verses that are unambiguous.
Every saved person from Adam on will be resurrected at the Second Advent, when Jesus returns to earth.
What you fail to grasp is that "the dead in Christ" are "those who belong to Him". You have NEVER provided an explanation of how they aren't the same group. Can you?
And as to your repeated "pretrib rapture" comments, you KNOW that no rapture verse shows Jesus taking anyone to heaven. Which is the total basis for your "pretrib" ideas.
In Rev 20:11-15 the GWTJ is for unbelievers only. The FIRST resurrection is mentioned in Rev 20:5, the verse that you have denied.
Acts 24:15 says there is A resurrection of both the saved and the unsaved. The saved are resurrected in the FIRST one, which is specifically mentioned in Rev 20:5, and are the saved. The second one is at the GWTJ.
I said:
1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
Where do you get "pre-" anything from this verse. It is very clear. In the single resurrection of the saved, Jesus is the firstfruits, as Savior and who was the first to receive a resurrection body. And followed by "those who belong to Him", an OBVIOUS reference to ALL saved people, from Adam on.
Or prove otherwise. From Scripture.
Prove it from Rev 19.
Prove it from Scripture. Clearly worded verses.
All you throw out are claims, but no actual verses.
I give clear verses that are unambiguous.
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Have you even seriously studied John 14:1-3? Where is "the Father's house?" Where are those "mansions?" Where is the Lord Jesus Christ presently seated? From where will He come to take His Bride? And to which place will He return for the Marriage of the Lamb?
So you are another shallow student of the Word of God, which tells believers that their citizenship is already in Heaven. And that is exactly where the saints will go after the Resurrection/Rapture. Indeed all the saints who have passed on are presently in the New Jerusalem (which is in Heaven). Their souls and spirits will be united with their glorified bodies, and they will return to Heaven with Christ.
So you are another shallow student of the Word of God, which tells believers that their citizenship is already in Heaven. And that is exactly where the saints will go after the Resurrection/Rapture. Indeed all the saints who have passed on are presently in the New Jerusalem (which is in Heaven). Their souls and spirits will be united with their glorified bodies, and they will return to Heaven with Christ.
FreeGrace2 said:
And as to your repeated "pretrib rapture" comments, you KNOW that no rapture verse shows Jesus taking anyone to heaven. Which is the total basis for your "pretrib" ideas.
Yes, I sure have seriously studied Jn 14:1-3.
1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me.
2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
First, you must understand that Jesus hadn't died yet. And He was talking to His still living disciples. So v.2 is simply a guarantee for the 11 disciples that they WILL have a place in heaven when they die. No mystery here.
Re: v.3, the first part is a repeat of the guarantee of the disciples of their place in heaven when they die.
The middle part is a clear statement that when Jesus returns to earth, He will "receive you to Myself", as the interlinear reads on biblehub.com. The last part is parallel to 1 Thess 4:17 - After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
So, there is nothing here about being resurrected or raptured and taken to heaven.
English Standard Version
v.3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.
The verse doesn't say Jesus will take them to heaven. It says when Jesus comes again (to earth) He will take them "to Myself".
Nice insult. Does it make you feel superior or something?
Study seriously every "rapture verse" in the NT. Then, quote the single MOST CLEAR and unambiguous verse that shows Jesus taking resurrected believers (that would include the 11 disciples who have already died) to heaven.
No, there are NO such verses. If there are any, quote the single best one that shows Jesus taking resurrected believers to heaven.
And John 14:1-3 doesn't apply. As I've shown. But I know you sure want it to.
And as to your repeated "pretrib rapture" comments, you KNOW that no rapture verse shows Jesus taking anyone to heaven. Which is the total basis for your "pretrib" ideas.
Yes, I sure have seriously studied Jn 14:1-3.
1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me.
2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
First, you must understand that Jesus hadn't died yet. And He was talking to His still living disciples. So v.2 is simply a guarantee for the 11 disciples that they WILL have a place in heaven when they die. No mystery here.
Re: v.3, the first part is a repeat of the guarantee of the disciples of their place in heaven when they die.
The middle part is a clear statement that when Jesus returns to earth, He will "receive you to Myself", as the interlinear reads on biblehub.com. The last part is parallel to 1 Thess 4:17 - After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
So, there is nothing here about being resurrected or raptured and taken to heaven.
English Standard Version
v.3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.
The verse doesn't say Jesus will take them to heaven. It says when Jesus comes again (to earth) He will take them "to Myself".
Nice insult. Does it make you feel superior or something?
Study seriously every "rapture verse" in the NT. Then, quote the single MOST CLEAR and unambiguous verse that shows Jesus taking resurrected believers (that would include the 11 disciples who have already died) to heaven.
No, there are NO such verses. If there are any, quote the single best one that shows Jesus taking resurrected believers to heaven.
And John 14:1-3 doesn't apply. As I've shown. But I know you sure want it to.
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Absolutely I am not saying that only those who endure the great trib are saved. But what it shows is that tribulation is not God's wrath for God's wrath is not upon any who are seeking to enter the Kingdom of God.
Tribulation is from the world "in the world you will have tribulation ..." it is persecution, the Great Trib is the great end-time persecution we are warned will come.
This is what will come on a sudden which we are told to be prepared to endure that we may be able to stand before the Lord when He comes.
The same folks who endure the tribulation now are the folks who will endure then. We will receive strength and wisdom to endure, we are even now, if we are on fire for the Lord, learning the secrets of endurance. That's what the modern experience of the Holy Ghost is all about.
Others dismiss it all as "life coaching"
Tribulation is from the world "in the world you will have tribulation ..." it is persecution, the Great Trib is the great end-time persecution we are warned will come.
This is what will come on a sudden which we are told to be prepared to endure that we may be able to stand before the Lord when He comes.
The same folks who endure the tribulation now are the folks who will endure then. We will receive strength and wisdom to endure, we are even now, if we are on fire for the Lord, learning the secrets of endurance. That's what the modern experience of the Holy Ghost is all about.
Others dismiss it all as "life coaching"
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Good post. Because the kingdom does not come with observable signs does not mean that it will not come or that it is not real. Nor should we think that because it is spiritual now and hidden that it will not become a reality and outward, that it will not be revealed and become manifest.
The Kingdom will become a reality on earth with Christ reigning through His [Jewish] saints. We [the church] will reign with Him from Heaven. It is THIS kingdom which we must enter through great tribulation. Not all who are saved will reign but those who endure both now and then.
The Kingdom will become a reality on earth with Christ reigning through His [Jewish] saints. We [the church] will reign with Him from Heaven. It is THIS kingdom which we must enter through great tribulation. Not all who are saved will reign but those who endure both now and then.
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Lot did not have peace from his neighbours, he had tribulation, nor can the extent of that tribulation be minimised in those last desperate days before S & G were overthrown.
I am thinking Noah got a bit of stick too while he was building that ark ... warning folks of what was coming.
I am thinking Noah got a bit of stick too while he was building that ark ... warning folks of what was coming.
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Hi! Good Morning!
Agreed!
Lot represents a type of "saints", today and past.......Noah also...both Yahweh delivered,pleanty of examples of this in scripture......
Nothing different from the world this current day.....maybe worse?
If He did it for them, I have no less "hope"
. Hope (1680) (ἐλπίς elpis (el-piys') n.)
a. (Properly) expectation (not from presumption or forcefulness nor a feeling, but from a
posture of trust having sound reason for the expectation).
b. (Explicitly) The Expectation of Resurrection through Yahshua (Messiah) unto
Eternal Life and Glorification alongside Him.
God Bless!
Agreed!
Lot represents a type of "saints", today and past.......Noah also...both Yahweh delivered,pleanty of examples of this in scripture......
Nothing different from the world this current day.....maybe worse?
If He did it for them, I have no less "hope"
. Hope (1680) (ἐλπίς elpis (el-piys') n.)
a. (Properly) expectation (not from presumption or forcefulness nor a feeling, but from a
posture of trust having sound reason for the expectation).
b. (Explicitly) The Expectation of Resurrection through Yahshua (Messiah) unto
Eternal Life and Glorification alongside Him.
God Bless!
You have to think Scripture and the words of Christ that overrides the mere knowledge of man.
34Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work. 35Do you not say, ‘There are still four months and then comes the harvest’? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look at the fields, for they are already white for harvest! 36And he who reaps receives wages, and gathers fruit for eternal life, that both he who sows and he who reaps may rejoice together. 37For in this the saying is true: ‘One sows and another reaps.’ 38I sent you to reap that for which you have not labored; others have labored, and you have entered into their labors.”
Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”
And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. - Acts 1:6-7
There will be no Resurrection until HIS COMING = 1 Thess 1:10 , 4:13-18 , Acts 1:9-11 , Matt 24: 29-31 , James 5:7-11
pre-trib is a false gospel - salvation through escaping tribulation - which Christ and the Apostle categorically rebuked.
pre-trib leads you to believe that there are multiple resurrections(pre-harvest) - apart from the First Resurrection in Revelation 20
pre-trib desperately attempts to establish multiple raptures, called harvests, in order to establish a pre-trib rapture in Revelation before chapter 20.
pre-trib overrides 1 Thess ch4 where the Resurrection occurs at His Coming by falsely claiming more then One Return
pre-trib changes 2 Thess ch2 to say that the "falling away" is the "departure = rapture".
The Holy Spirit rebukes this lie as the Apostle Paul stated twice that the "falling away" is a departure from truth.
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, - 1 Timothy 4:1
The Holy Spirit rebukes this lie a third time by speaking thru the Apostle John in 1 John 2:18-19
pre-trib falsely claims there is another gospel preached to "tribulation saints who are Left Behind"
Christ said He will not leave behind His Saints/His Elect/His Body - He is Coming = only One Second Coming
But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.
34Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work. 35Do you not say, ‘There are still four months and then comes the harvest’? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look at the fields, for they are already white for harvest! 36And he who reaps receives wages, and gathers fruit for eternal life, that both he who sows and he who reaps may rejoice together. 37For in this the saying is true: ‘One sows and another reaps.’ 38I sent you to reap that for which you have not labored; others have labored, and you have entered into their labors.”
Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”
And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. - Acts 1:6-7
There will be no Resurrection until HIS COMING = 1 Thess 1:10 , 4:13-18 , Acts 1:9-11 , Matt 24: 29-31 , James 5:7-11
pre-trib is a false gospel - salvation through escaping tribulation - which Christ and the Apostle categorically rebuked.
pre-trib leads you to believe that there are multiple resurrections(pre-harvest) - apart from the First Resurrection in Revelation 20
pre-trib desperately attempts to establish multiple raptures, called harvests, in order to establish a pre-trib rapture in Revelation before chapter 20.
pre-trib overrides 1 Thess ch4 where the Resurrection occurs at His Coming by falsely claiming more then One Return
pre-trib changes 2 Thess ch2 to say that the "falling away" is the "departure = rapture".
The Holy Spirit rebukes this lie as the Apostle Paul stated twice that the "falling away" is a departure from truth.
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, - 1 Timothy 4:1
The Holy Spirit rebukes this lie a third time by speaking thru the Apostle John in 1 John 2:18-19
pre-trib falsely claims there is another gospel preached to "tribulation saints who are Left Behind"
Christ said He will not leave behind His Saints/His Elect/His Body - He is Coming = only One Second Coming
But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.
Noah faced the Greatest Tribulation the world had ever seen up to this point in world history.
This is why the Lord said to us = "As in the days of Noah so will the coming of the Son of man be"
pre-trib is a cash cow and a great deception to keep people under the fear of man and terror with a false promise of relief.
As you said, this is HOLY SPIRIT time - the more you have Him the more you can endure.
For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; 7and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked 8(for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)— 9then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, 10and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed. They are not afraid to speak evil of [c]dignitaries, 11whereas angels, who are greater in power and might, do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord.
This is why the Lord said to us = "As in the days of Noah so will the coming of the Son of man be"
pre-trib is a cash cow and a great deception to keep people under the fear of man and terror with a false promise of relief.
As you said, this is HOLY SPIRIT time - the more you have Him the more you can endure.
For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; 7and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked 8(for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)— 9then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, 10and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed. They are not afraid to speak evil of [c]dignitaries, 11whereas angels, who are greater in power and might, do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord.
Lol
You omitted " before the flood"
You omitted noah was gathered before the flood.
You omitted that noah was carried over a mile into the sky.
You omitted that noah RETURNED FROM THE HEAVENS POSTRIB
you took all that away for a reason?
Or did you not know what the facts are?
Could be your teachers are messed up?
Yes they actually changed Gods word.
Fact.
You omitted " before the flood"
You omitted noah was gathered before the flood.
You omitted that noah was carried over a mile into the sky.
You omitted that noah RETURNED FROM THE HEAVENS POSTRIB
you took all that away for a reason?
Or did you not know what the facts are?
Could be your teachers are messed up?
Yes they actually changed Gods word.
Fact.