What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

[justbyfaith]

I don't know if 2 Thessalonians 1:9 has been mentioned.

To me, it is explained by the algebraic equation y = 1 / x.

Where x is the allotted period of time and y = the wholeness of the individual.

Here, y keeps getting less as x increases; and y never reaches zero.

So, it is everlasting destruction as y continues to decrease.

 

[Radius]

The story of the rich man and Lazarus is not literal; it's a parable. Rich people do not go to torment for having money and beggars don't go to paradise for having a tough life. That completely upends God's plan of salvation for mankind and introduces a false doctrine about salvation and condemnation based on someone's economic status rather than God's mercy.

This parable is meant to give the reader spiritual lessons.

.

I don't think so. i think Jesus was giving an account of a true story, since in all other parables he never gave the characters a name. He did in this, and only this story.

 

[justbyfaith]

In Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50, and in Matthew 25:46, we find that there is an "everlasting punishment" that is characterized by "wailing and gnashing of teeth" in the "furnace of fire"

 

[Runningman]

I don't think so. i think Jesus was giving an account of a true story, since in all other parables he never gave the characters a name. He did in this, and only this story.

Why is mentioning a name or not what defines a parable? If the rich man and Lazarus is literal, we don't need the gospel? We can just be poor, slothful, and beg all day to go to paradise?

 

[CS1]

Really???

So - no one who lives during the millennium will be saved???

When will their Judgment be?

the Context of the Great White Throne is those who are not saved.

The Great White Throne Judgment. This is a judgment of lost people in Revelation 20:11-15. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which was in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which was in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[CS1]

Revelation 20:

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Does the wording in this verse not imply that there will be some present who will be found written in the book of life?

no, it does not. Those whose names are not found are those who will be judged as all, the books will be open.

 

[Runningman]

Final thoughts:

For those who believe not what God says about the ungodly and wicked and their final punishment you do not well for the rebellious and disobedient ungodly, wicked sinners believe as you do!

Compare the splendors of heaven and the promises attributed to it being our home. Now compare the lake of fire with eternal torment for the wicked and ungodly ,you are not comparing spiritual with spiritual therefore it seems evil to you!

What about the OT when God told them to destroy whole cities,man woman and child and leave nothing standing on its hoof......is that evil?

God is more than a benevolent bobblehead wanting love and peace for all. He gave the most precious being he had to secure than none would receive this final eternal judgment.

He is a jealous God,one of wrath,vengeance and true judgments!
Be ware that you stay grounded in HIS truth!

Just a bunch of hot air and bluster.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

In the comment I responded to, the commenter's false narrative is that there will be unrighteous people being judged fire and smoke that rises forever in a location on Earth called Edom. That would mean in the New Earth there are still unrighteous people present in eternal torment on the New Earth, thereby contradicting the scriptures about only righteousness dwelling on the New Earth.

2 Peter 3:13
13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Isaiah 34:9-10 is not literal.

Sorry, I didn't know you were talking about that. I didn't read the post you were responding to.

I'm familiar with that prophecy. I think it is quite literal but it isn't the new earth. It's judgement on this current one.
It's burning pitch in the Middle East. Likely the oil reserves that 'Mystery Babylon' was made wealthy on.
Edom = parts of present-day Jordan & Northern Saudi. Jesus travels right through there on his return
to Jerusalem. The same route as the first Exodus. There's rather a lot of geographical detail in the prophetic picture
of the end of the age. I wouldn't confuse that with the new H & E. The geograpy might be quite different then.

 

[Laura798]

The fire is eternal.
If everything including all the wicked the spirits where annihilated at some point, why would the fire be eternal?

Math 25:41
“Then he will also say to those on the left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed,
into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels!

Lucy,

You seem like an intelligent person and there are people here who were raised believing as you did--I was one of them--I didn't realize until just a few years ago that I was holding two incongruent thoughts in my mind. However, I prayed about it then studied it--no one taught Annihilationism to me--I didn't even know that term. It took a matter of minutes to see what was there all the time. The bible must be read as a whole--if it says people perish or are destroyed, then they can't also be suffering eternal torment. Torment in the context of Revelation is 'punishment'.

When reading Scriptures the context is vital. For example Jesus said He only spoke to the people in parables and reiterates His point. He also tells the disciples He spoke using figurative language.

"All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable."--Matthew 13:34

"“Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father."--John 16:


Eternal Fire is also called Eternal Punishment and Eternal Destruction--these figures of speech are interchangeable. any word ending with 'ment'/'tion' means it is final, not ongoing

The first lie of Satan to mankind was "You shall not surely die." But God had warned them beforehand--if they sinned against His commandment not to eat of the tree they would die. It's important to note that it says IN THE DAY (not on) you eat of it--of course they did not die immediately, but in that day, they received the death sentence that was pronounced for sin for all mankind. But he 'covered' them with the animal skins, just as believers are covered by the righteousness of Christ.

Scripture says "No man can see God and live."

"And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming."--2 Thessalonians 2:8

 

[Laura798]

The fire is eternal.
If everything including all the wicked the spirits where annihilated at some point, why would the fire be eternal?

Math 25:41
“Then he will also say to those on the left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed,
into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels!

Lucy, (other message timed out-this is the edited one)

You seem like an intelligent person and there are people here who were raised believing as you did--I was one of them--I didn't realize until just a few years ago that I was holding two incongruent thoughts in my mind. However, I prayed about it then studied it--no one taught Annihilationism to me--I didn't even know that term. It took a matter of minutes to see what was there all the time. The bible must be read as a whole--if it says people perish or are destroyed, then they can't also be suffering eternal torment. Torment in the context of Revelation is 'punishment'.

When reading Scriptures the context is vital. For example Jesus said He only spoke to the people in parables and reiterates His point. He also tells the disciples He spoke using figurative language.

"All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable."--Matthew 13:34

"“Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father."--John 16:


Eternal Fire is also called Eternal Punishment and Eternal Destruction--these figures of speech are interchangeable. any word ending with 'ment'/'tion' means it is final, not ongoing

The first lie of Satan to mankind was "You shall not surely die." But God had warned them beforehand--if they sinned against His commandment not to eat of the tree they would die. It's important to note that it says IN THE DAY (not on) you eat of it--of course they did not die immediately, but in that day, they received the death sentence that was pronounced for sinning for all mankind. But God 'covered' them with the animal skins, just as believers are covered by the righteousness of Christ.

Eternal conscious torment would mean the unbeliever also gets eternal life, but the bible says only believers receive it--and it is called a 'gift. Burning forever is not a gift. Instead Scripture says:

"No man can see God and live."

"And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming."--2 Thessalonians 2:8

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Many of the posters in this thread seem to be confused about 'physical' death and 'spiritual' death - and, which verses of scripture are referring to which type of death.

Would you agree with me that Scripture says:

Berean Literal Bible
The last enemy to be abolished [G2673 rendered inoperative] is death.

King James Bible
The last enemy that shall be destroyed [G2673 rendered inoperative] is death.



...it does NOT say,

"the last enemy to be abolished / destroyed / rendered inoperative [G2673] is the SECOND death [or, the lake of fire]."




Scripture never states this, nor hints toward this.



[see again the SEQUENCE shown in Rev20:13...14...15]

 

[Gardenias]

Identified those who believe in this false doctrine such as Jehovah's witnesses, chritadelphians,seven day adventist,there may be more cults also!

 

[SaltwaterGirl]

The fire is eternal.
If everything including all the wicked the spirits where annihilated at some point, why would the fire be eternal?

Math 25:41
“Then he will also say to those on the left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed,
into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels!

Hi, Lucy

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. - Matthew 25:41-46 (KJV)

"Everlasting fire" simply refers to the eternal fire that consumes until there is nothing left, as in whatever or whoever it is perishes and is gone for all time. Our God is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29"). To put it another way, Satan has been sentenced to death by fire, and when this happens, he will be no more. Ezek. 28:18-19 describes both his sentence (vs. 18) and his everlasting demise (vs. 19), both of which have been planned for him at the end of the Millennium (Rev. 20:14).

Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. - Ezekiel 28:18-19 (KJV)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

2 Thessalonians 1:9 -

Berean Study Bible
They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction [G3639], separated from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His might,

Berean Literal Bible
who will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction [G3639] away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

King James Bible
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction [G3639] from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;



[quoting from BibleHub]

[G3639 ^ ]

Definition: destruction, death
Usage: ruin, doom, destruction, death.

HELPS Word-studies
3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."


[end quoting]







____________

Regarding the devil and the beast and the false prophet:

Rev20:10 -


Berean Study Bible
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever [/unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]].

Berean Literal Bible
And the devil, the one deceiving them, was cast into the lake of fire and of sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet also are; and they will be tormented day and night to the ages of the ages.

King James Bible
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever [/unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]].

 

[Laura798]

Identified those who believe in this false doctrine such as Jehovah's witnesses, chritadelphians,seven day adventist,there may be more cults also!

Gardenias, You still refuse to use scripture to support your position and you don't read any of the verses we post which disprove it. Most cults mix truth with lies. This is of course one of Satan's most clever strategies!

If the bible says unbelievers perish, die, are destroyed, then they can't be in conscious eternal torment. If the wages of sin is eternal conscious torment that would mean Jesus Himself will be/is in eternal conscious torment! Why do you hang on so tightly to this doctrine, rather than investigate it for yourself. Do you not own a bible?

 

[Laura798]

Gardenias, You still refuse to use scripture to support your position and you don't read any of the verses we post which disprove it. Most cults mix truth with lies. This is of course one of Satan's most clever strategies!

If the bible says unbelievers perish, die, are destroyed, then they can't be in conscious eternal torment. If the wages of sin is eternal conscious torment that would mean Jesus Himself will be/is in eternal conscious torment! Why do you hang on so tightly to this doctrine, rather than investigate it for yourself. Do you not own a bible?

PS I have been studying Seventh Day Adventist and while I don't agree with all they say, their positions to keep all of the 10 commandments 'Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy' is extremely compelling. I can't find anywhere in scripture that says that was abolished--God wrote the 10 commandments with his own Hand on tablets of stone, therefore they are eternal. My personal belief is we ought to do the same, but be like the 1st century Christians who met together DAILY. To conclude the Seventh Day Adventists are not a cult and hold more closely to the scriptures than many of the larger denominations.

 

[Laura798]

Addendum: this is not for discussion or debate--just to point out they are NOT a cult

I have been studying Seventh Day Adventist and while I don't agree with all they say, their positions to keep all of the 10 commandments 'Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy' is extremely compelling. I can't find anywhere in scripture that says that was abolished--God wrote the 10 commandments with his own Hand on tablets of stone, therefore they are eternal. My personal belief is we ought to do the same, but be like the 1st century Christians who met together DAILY. To conclude the Seventh Day Adventists are not a cult and hold more closely to the scriptures than many of the larger denominations.

In over 100 langues Saturday is called the Sabbath. The bible says there will be a Sabbath rest for God's people--the 7th day Sabbath points to just that!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@SaltwaterGirl 's Post #373, notice the same Hebrew word used in your Ezekiel 28:19 verse is used here (the second of the enlarged words):


Eze 26:20
When I shall bring thee down H3381 with them that descend H3381 into the pit, H953 with the people H5971 of old time H5769, and shall set H3427 thee in the low parts H8482 of the earth H776, in places desolate H2723 of old, H5769 with them that go down H3381 to the pit H953, that thou be not inhabited H3427; and I shall set H5414 glory H6643 in the land H776 of the living H2416;

["pit" often means grave (or death)... the end of you on this earth ]

Eze 26:21
I will make H5414 thee a terror H1091, and thou shalt be no more: though thou be sought for H1245, yet shalt thou never H5769 be found H4672 again, saith H5002 the Lord H136 GOD H3069.



[where this last verse means "never be found again on the earth / amongst the living [coz you've DIED]"... just like the ppl had, per the previous verse, v.20. ]

 

[Laura798]

Hi, Lucy

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. - Matthew 25:41-46 (KJV)

"Everlasting fire" simply refers to the eternal fire that consumes until there is nothing left, as in whatever or whoever it is perishes and is gone for all time. Our God is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29"). To put it another way, Satan has been sentenced to death by fire, and when this happens, he will be no more. Ezek. 28:18-19 describes both his sentence (vs. 18) and his everlasting demise (vs. 19), both of which have been planned for him at the end of the Millennium (Rev. 20:14).

Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. - Ezekiel 28:18-19 (KJV)

"Never shall thou be anymore."---amen to that sister!

 

[ewq1938]

Death is most certainly not the end of existence.

Wrong. When body, soul and spirit die in a fire God created, the fire will consume everything until nothing exists.

Heb_12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

G2654
?ata?a??´s??
katanalisko¯
kat-an-al-is'-ko
From G2596 and G355; to consume utterly: - consume.

compare that to this:


Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

G622
a?p?´???µ?
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.


to consume utterly
to destroy fully

Both speak about fire which can fully destroy/consume something.