Understanding the Trinity as a doctrine.

[MalikB]

What translations do you use friend and who are the translators? give online links to them please.

I use multiple translations as well as concordances, dictionaries, lexicons. There is no perfect translation, but I will give you my top five. If interested, you will have to do your own footwork for the links though:

5. Probably a three way tie amongst the literal versions LSV, SLV and YLT.
4. 1901 ASV
3. 1560 Geneva
2. Halleluyah Scriptures
1. The Logos Bible

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

The "Father of eternity" is still the Father.

Better change that scripture one more time.

No need. My understanding of the bible is reinforced with "Everlasting Father" and is consistent with the other verses. I have tested it against Scriptures, found it to resonate, therefore I am closer to the Truth.

This citation of a Trinitarian is not consistent with your interpretation of the Trinity. If the growing body of evidence and facts causes more dissonance than resonance, it is a sure sign you are getting farther away from the truth.

 

[CS1]

There are multiple beings in Revelation (God The Father, God's angel, Jesus Christ, John, etc.). This causes confusion in the church regarding who is saying what. You have to start at the beginning or Revelation to get the context:


Revelation 1:1-2

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.


This first verse is very important because it lets us know who is speaking, who is being spoken to, and who is being spoken about. The subject matter is "The Revelation of Jesus Christ". The one giving the Revelation is "God" through His "angel", and it is being given to Jesus' servant John.

This verse makes it clear that God and Jesus are two separate entities, and its God (by way of His angel) that is giving the Revelation.



Revelation 1:3-6

3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.



The actual Revelation of Jesus doesn't start until verse seven. Verses 4-6 appear to be a prayer addressed to these churches in Asia. What we do get from this though is more clear indication of separate beings (The Father, Jesus, and seven Spirits before the Father's throne). Something else important here.... The small word "and" written before "the seven Spirits" and before "Jesus Christ" indicates that neither one of them can be the entity referred to as "Him which is, and which was, and which is to come". This is important for verse 8....



Revelation 1:7-8

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.


So now with everything in context, we can look at the two controversial verses. It is clear that verse seven is speaking about The Messiah... not only because of him being pierced, but also because verse 1 says this is a revelation of him. However, we learned in verse one that it was The Father through His angel that was giving the Revelation... not The Messiah. This is why verse 7 is not in first person when speaking about Jesus... where as verse 8 is in first person. We also see the phrase "which is, and which was, and which is to come", which belong to a separate being from Jesus as we saw in verses 4-5. Lastly, we have the title "The Almighty" which refers To The Most High many places in scripture, but nowhere is it used to refer to Jesus.


This clear distinction between God (The Father) and Jesus continues on through the the other chapters you mentioned (Rev 21 and 22):


Revelation 22:1-3

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

You will see this separation between the two entities all throughout Revelation and the rest of scripture. So as we saw in Revelation 1, it begins with God The Father's angel speaking. Jesus' voice is introduced in Rev 1:9-10 and he speaks until Rev 4. We see in Rev 4:1 that there is more than one voice heard by John.... This is why Jesus announces himself when he starts speaking again in Rev 22:16.

The phrase "Alpha and Omega" is not used by The Messiah. The only place you will find that phrase within context of Jesus speaking is Revelation 1:11.... and in that verse you will not find that phrase in the Byzantine Majority Text. This is one of the few places the KJV steered away from the MT. For the sake of argument let's say The Messiah did call himself the Alpha and Omega... Well if he's the firstborn of creation and will be here for eternity, then so be it. Sharing that phrase with the Most High still does not automatically mean that you have the same level of power/authority as Him.

a great example of one completely removed from the whole Context of the Word of God.


Here this person uses Revelation 1:1-2 to try and suggest Jesus is not God while not seeing the context of what is said


"Who bare record of the word of God, "

The very same person who gave John the Revelation is the someone who gave John the Revelation of Jesus in the Gospel of John chapter, which says:



1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God(eternal) . 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him ( the word of God)nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life,(the word of God) and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

Jesus is that very word John is Baring witness to in Revelation chapter One. How do we know this/ because John's parallel scripture is the Gospel of John with Chapter one of Revelation. Where John says as this person quoted :

"Who bare record of the word of God,(same word in John one) and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw."

Jesus is the word of God who is God with God from the beginning and forever. No man can comprehend this mystery fully.

God The Father is God, Jesus the Son is God the Holy Spirit is God one the same yet distinct from each other. How ? That is the incomprehensive mystery of an Infinite God and the finite man trying to say I know all about the One true God.

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

I had two tabs open and clicked the wrong one. tired at time

Yeah, I know what you mean. I occasionally fall asleep at the monitor, not very restful.

 

[MalikB]

Biblically, while it is true that there is only one God (Isa. 44:6; 45:18; 46:9; John 5:44; 1 Cor. 8:4; James 2:19), it is also true that three persons are called God in Scripture:

the Father (1 Pet. 1:2),
Jesus (John 20:28; Heb. 1:8), and
the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3-4).
Each of these three possesses the attributes of deity—including

omnipresence (Ps. 139:7; Jer. 23:23-24; Matt. 28:20),
omniscience (Ps. 147:5; John 16:30; 1 Cor. 2:10-11),
omnipotence (Jer. 32:17; John 2:1-11; Rom. 15:19), and
eternality (Ps. 90:2; Heb. 9:14; Rev. 22:13).
Still further, each of the three is involved in doing the works of deity—such as creating the universe:

the Father (Gen. 1:1; Ps. 102:25),
the Son (John 1:3; Col. 1:16; Heb. 1:2), and
the Holy Spirit (Gen. 1:2; Job 33:4; Ps. 104:30).
The Bible indicates that there is three-in-oneness in the godhead (Matt. 28:19; cf. 2 Cor. 13:14).

Thus doctrinal support for the Trinity is compellingly strong.

3. Jesus Christ.
Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Jesus was created by Jehovah as the archangel Michael before the physical world existed, and is a lesser, though mighty, god.

Biblically, however, Jesus is eternally God (John 1:1; 8:58; cf. Ex. 3:14) and has the exact same divine nature as the Father (John 5:18; 10:30; Heb. 1:3).

Indeed, a comparison of the OT and NT equates Jesus with Jehovah (compare Isa. 43:11 with Titus 2:13; Isa. 44:24 with Col. 1:16; Isa. 6:1-5 with John 12:41).

Jesus himself created the angels (Col. 1:16; cf. John 1:3; Heb. 1:2, 10) and is worshiped by them (Heb. 1:6).

4. The incarnation.
Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that when Jesus was born on earth, he was a mere human and not God in human flesh.

This violates the biblical teaching that in the incarnate Jesus, “the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily” (Col. 2:9; cf. Phil. 2:6-7).

The word for “fullness” (Gk. plērōma) carries the idea of the sum total. “Deity” (Gk. theotēs) refers to the nature, being, and attributes of God.

Therefore, the incarnate Jesus was the sum total of the nature, being, and attributes of God in bodily form.

Indeed, Jesus was Immanuel, or “God with us” (Matt. 1:23; cf. Isa. 7:14; John 1:1, 14, 18; 10:30; 14:9-10).

5. Resurrection.
Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Jesus was resurrected spiritually from the dead, but not physically.

Biblically, however, the resurrected Jesus asserted that he was not merely a spirit but had a flesh-and-bone body (Luke 24:39; cf. John 2:19-21).

He ate food on several occasions, thereby proving that he had a genuine physical body after the resurrection (Luke 24:30, 42-43; John 21:12-13).

This was confirmed by his followers who physically touched him (Matt. 28:9; John 20:17).

6. The second coming.
Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that the second coming was an invisible, spiritual event that occurred in the year 1914.

Biblically, however, the yet-future second coming will be physical, visible (Acts 1:9-11; cf. Titus 2:13), and will be accompanied by visible cosmic disturbances (Matt. 24:29-30). Every eye will see him (Rev. 1:7).

7. The Holy Spirit.
Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force of God and not a distinct person.

Biblically, however, the Holy Spirit has the three primary attributes of personality:

a mind (Rom. 8:27),
emotions (Eph. 4:30), and
will (1 Cor. 12:11).
Moreover, personal pronouns are used of him (Acts 13:2). Also, he does things that only a person can do, including:

teaching (John 14:26),
testifying (John 15:26),
commissioning (Acts 13:4),
issuing commands (Acts 8:29), and
interceding (Rom. 8:26).
The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity (Matt. 28:19).

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/...hovahs-witnesses-when-they-knock-at-the-door/

https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1982/06/is-jesus-jehovah-god
http://www.bible-researcher.com/tetragrammaton.html

links are too long to post

Not only are the links too long, but the post itself is too long. I have already addressed these things on this forum, if you want a response to a few verses at a time regarding a specific aspect of the trinity, I can do that. But it's unreasonable if you are expecting a response to all of this at once.

 

[MalikB]

a great example of one completely removed from the whole Context of the Word of God.


Here this person uses Revelation 1:1-2 to try and suggest Jesus is not God while not seeing the context of what is said


"Who bare record of the word of God, "

The very same person who gave John the Revelation is the someone who gave John the Revelation of Jesus in the Gospel of John chapter, which says:



1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God(eternal) . 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him ( the word of God)nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life,(the word of God) and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

Jesus is that very word John is Baring witness to in Revelation chapter One. How do we know this/ because John's parallel scripture is the Gospel of John with Chapter one of Revelation. Where John says as this person quoted :

"Who bare record of the word of God,(same word in John one) and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw."

Jesus is the word of God who is God with God from the beginning and forever. No man can comprehend this mystery fully.

God The Father is God, Jesus the Son is God the Holy Spirit is God one the same yet distinct from each other. How ? That is the incomprehensive mystery of an Infinite God and the finite man trying to say I know all about the One true God.

No evidence that suggests anything I said was incorrect. Typical.

 

[MalikB]

Being eternal alone does not make you The Most High God

 

[MalikB]

Acts 13:2
While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”

Only a person speaks in the first person. The use of ego, I indicates the HS is a person.

This is the "Lord" that is speaking in that same verse. Again, mankind is not capable of hearing or seeing The Most High. So He communicates to us through His spirit. He is the person, not the spirit.

 

[MalikB]

Hebrew was my first language, thus I am in the know.

"The name Yahweh (yah-WEH) occurs more than 6,800 times in the Old Testament. It appears in every book but Esther, Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs. As the sacred, personal name of Israel's God, it was eventually spoken aloud only by priests worshiping in the Jerusalem temple. After the destruction of the temple in A.D. 70, the name was not pronounced. Adonay was substituted for Yahweh whenever it appeared in the biblical text. Because of this, the correct pronunciation of this name was eventually lost. English editions of the Bible usually translate Adonay as "Lord" and Yahweh as "LORD." Yahweh is the name that is most closely linked to God's redeeming acts in the history of his chosen people. We know God because of what he has done. When you pray to Yahweh, remember that he is the same God who draws near to save you from the tyranny of sin just as he saved his people from tyrannical slavery in Egypt. "
https://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-study/topical-studies/why-it-matters-that-god-is-yahweh.html

Have a good night friend,
daniel

Modern Hebrew is not the ancient language. It did not sound the same before it was revived and the vowel point system was added to tell people how words should be pronounced. The original language was phonetic. I know that Adonay was a substitution, but the original pronunciation was not "Yahweh" either.

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

The "Father of eternity" is still the Father.

Better change that scripture one more time.

Sorry. Typo in last response. "Father of Eternity" not "Everlasting Father"

 

[rayzor]

Modern Hebrew is not the ancient language. It did not sound the same before it was revived and the vowel point system was added to tell people how words should be pronounced. The original language was phonetic. I know that Adonay was a substitution, but the original pronunciation was not "Yahweh" either.

MalikB the vowel [niqqud] are for foreigners with the exception of kids. Some say the vav should sound like a w sound.Some people sound some the words with both sounds,,,,such as the word [tow-who].Aren't all language phonetic?,,,,,some say [ya-ho-vah]

 

[justbyfaith]

I had a feeling something was off.
That is penticostal oneness doctrine.

Easily debunked

Debunk it.

 

[justbyfaith]

Every word of this is pure baloney.

They may bann you.

Not sure ......but you are a heretic

Am not...

And while I have a background with Oneness, I do not entirely subscribe to Oneness doctrine. I believe in the Trinity...that Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are distinct from one another.

I do emphasize the Oneness of the Lord in order to avoid the heresy of Tritheism.

 

[justbyfaith]

Every word of this is pure baloney.

They may bann you.

Not sure ......but you are a heretic

See Acts 24:24 (kjv).

I am in good company with Paul because of your accusation.

 

[justbyfaith]

Too bad he avoids Bowman's outline of the Trinity I posted a few times now.

I think he is allergic to truth of God's Word.

No, I haven't avoided this.

In fact, this is the first time I've seen it posted.

 

[justbyfaith]

I also do not believe that God "wears different hats".

 

[justbyfaith]

No need. My understanding of the bible is reinforced with "Everlasting Father" and is consistent with the other verses. I have tested it against Scriptures, found it to resonate, therefore I am closer to the Truth.

This citation of a Trinitarian is not consistent with your interpretation of the Trinity. If the growing body of evidence and facts causes more dissonance than resonance, it is a sure sign you are getting farther away from the truth.

Holding to a literal interpretation of what is written in Isaiah 9:6 means that I am right on track with the truth of holy scripture.

Most people don't understand how Jesus can be distinct from the Father and yet be the same Spirit as the Father. I do.

In fact it is really very quite simple.

 

[justbyfaith]

Every word of this is pure baloney.

They may bann you.

Not sure ......but you are a heretic

I get my understanding of the Trinity from the Bible. How then, am I believing in heresy?

 

[justbyfaith]

Since Jesus is God (Hebrews 1:8-9); and God is a Spirit (John 4:24), that indicates that Jesus is a Spirit; albeit come in the flesh (1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7).

Since God the Father is also a Spirit (John 4:23-24) and there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4), that indicates that Jesus and the Father are the same Spirit.

Though Jesus is distinct from the Father in that He is come in the flesh; and the Father is a Spirit without flesh.

I think that you can see that my doctrine is entirely biblical.

 

[Absolutely]

The Messiah is the the expression of The Most High... The word made flesh (The physical representation of what the Father says)... an image of Him. Of course they are going to have tons of similarities, use some of the same lingo, etc. But they are still two distinct entities, with separate minds and differing levels of authority. The Messiah gets his power from The Most High... never the other way around.

No
Jesus is the word.
the word made flesh is Jesus made flesh.

how in the world to you muddy up something so vivid and plain??????