What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

[Aaron56]

!

The two in the garden bought the lie as you have bought this one!

Please explain Adam’s and Eve’s death after eating the fruit. e.g. “What was the manner of their death”?

 

[ewq1938]

Hi...
Genuine question...
Are we not going to be given a new body in heaven , as our flesh and body are sinful and cannot enter heaven in our earthly body...

There is nothing in the bible about "sinful flesh" unable to enter heaven. The most sinful and evil person was in heaven, satan.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I really do not think you read my post, because I had said (regarding the CHRONOLOGY):

...in other words, "hell/hades" (and "death") is what PRECEDES this point in the chronology,

...and thus what FOLLOWS this point in the chronology is "death and hell/hades DELIVERED UP the DEAD that were in them" for this final carrying out of the sentence, so to speak, of which this passage states that it ('the lake of fire') is:

"for ever and ever"/"unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]"

i.e. there is no "escaping" this, no "dying [escape / separation] out-from this / out-of this," as "death" is the last enemy to be "destroyed [G2673 - katargeó/katargeitai - 'to make completely inoperative' or 'to put out of use,']" at that time (@GWTj point in the chronology)

Additionally...

Consider:


Note also the word for "destroy / destroyed" in some of those passages being referenced (in this thread), is "G622"... the same word used in the following passages below

(but recall, I'm pointing out "CHRONOLOGY" issues... where in THESE verses below, the CHRONOLOGY is such that SOMETHING "recovering" FOLLOWS it [not so in the other occurrences under discussion, per the CHRONOLOGY issues I'm pointing out]):


[G622 - translated "DESTROY / DESTROYED" in some passages under present discussion]


Luk 15:6 -
And G2532 when he cometh G2064 G1519 home, G3624 he calleth together G4779 his friends G5384 and G2532 neighbours, G1069 saying G3004 unto them, G846 Rejoice G4796 with me G3427; for G3754 I have found G2147 my G3450 sheep G4263 which G3588 was lost G622.

Luk 15:8 -
Either G2228 what G5101 woman G1135 having G2192 ten G1176 pieces of silver, G1406 if G1437 she lose G622 one G3391 piece, G1406 doth not G3780 light G681 a candle, G3088 and G2532 sweep G4563 the house G3614, and G2532 seek G2212 diligently G1960 till G2193 G3755 she find G2147 it?

Luk 15:9 -
And G2532 when she hath found G2147 it, she calleth G4779 ➔ her friends G5384 and G2532 her neighbours G1069 together, G4779 saying, G3004 Rejoice G4796 with me; G3427 for G3754 I have found G2147 the piece G1406 which G3739 I had lost G622.

Luk 15:24 -
For G3754 this G3778 my G3450 son G5207 was G2258 dead, G3498 and G2532 is alive again; G326 G2532 he was G2258 lost G622, and G2532 is found G2147. And G2532 they began G756 to be merry. G2165

Luk 15:32 -
It was G1161 meet G1163 that we should make merry, G2165 and G2532 be glad: G5463 for G3754 this G3778 thy G4675 brother G80 was G2258 dead, G3498 and G2532 is alive again; G326 and G2532 was G2258 lost G622, and G2532 is found G2147.


[the CHRONOLOGY was such that something "recovering" FOLLOWS the "lost [G622]" part--Not so when it comes to the "GWTj" point in the chronology]




[in the following passage, where "the world" perished G622 [including the ppl in it, except Noah & crew], but where Noah & crew continued to live on after the flood judgment came upon the world, and they went on to "fill the earth"]

2 Pet 3:6 -
Whereby G1223 G3739 the world G2889 that then was, G5119 being overflowed G2626 with water, G5204 perished G622:



[note: the ones who "perished [G622]" in the flood judgment, are part of "the dead [/unsaved of all time periods]" who will be "DELIVERED UP" at the point in time of the "GWTj" to experience the final carrying out of the sentence (aka the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[23], being in v.22b (the LATER "GWTj" time-slot), which is SEPARATED BY "TIME" from that of the FIRST of these TWO "PUNISH" words (<--at His Second Coming to the earth time-slot)]; At the GWTj time-slot of the CHRONOLOGY, the "lake of fire" is "unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]"... never-ending / forever... (there's no "separation [/death]" out of it--nothing "recovering" occurring FOLLOWING this point; and no REVERSAL of the "sentence" previously given and experienced up to this point)]

 

[Magenta]

I really do not think you read my post, because I had said (regarding the CHRONOLOGY):

Making a general comment as part of my reply to you regarding widespread error does not mean I did not read your post.

You may want to reconsider how you are formatting your posts.

The length of them is prohibitive as well

 

[Laura798]

I really do not think you read my post, because I had said (regarding the CHRONOLOGY):

Death is the LAST enemy--the very LAST thing to be destroyed.

First: All the fallen angels, along with Satan
Second: The unbelievers
Third: Death will be destroyed
Fourth: The current heaven and earth


13The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds. 14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death— the lake of fire. 15And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.…

Note that verse 15 is affirming what has happened in verse 13. It is making it perfectly clear, what will happen to those who are judged. The angel explains what the lake of fire is--"The lake of fire IS the second death."

Death means death--again the whole of scripture will need to be called into question if you do not believe death means death. perish means perish. Destroy means destroy.

No suffering will exist in the universe--God said He is making "ALL things new", where there will be "NO MORE sorrow and no more tears."

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ ...and as I said, after "DEATH" is "destroyed [G2673 - I make idle (inactive), make of no effect, annul, abolish, bring to naught; to render inoperative]"... no one will experience that as they had previously to this point (the GWTj point in time);

Thereafter is the "SECOND DEATH" (in the "lake of fire" which is stated to be "unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]")... one cannot "DIE" out-from it ("DEATH" will have been "rendered inoperative" at this point in the chronology / the GWTj point in time).




[death is separation]



Much of the confusion surrounding this topic is the matter of "CHRONOLOGY," as I said... (especially with regard to the various "judgments"---WHEN they variously occur...)

 

[Laura798]

😂😂🤣🤣🤣
Same devil,same liar!

As he told Adam and Eve " you shall not surely die"

Surely God didn't mean a real lake of with REAL fire for ALL ETERNITY!

The two in the garden bought the lie as you have bought this one!

Lol figuratively.. Lol

Your espousals are contrary to Gods word and therefore are false.........

Gardenias,

The only thing I am contrary to is false doctrine. You make claims on an emotional basis rather than a rational one.

I've noticed a pattern in these forums, that when someone has the wrong end of the stick, they began attacking and name calling, leaving out scripture and speaking out of their own ideas.

"The Bereans were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."-- Acts 17:11

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The length of them is prohibitive as well

Okay, I'll shorten to the first part of my previous post.

Which one of these verses using that phrase MEANS "temporary / momentary" or the like?

[quoting]


"unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" -

(what we call "forever" / "eternity" / "eternal" / endlessness, etc),

...found in the following verses:


--Galatians 1:5;
Philippians 4:20;
1 Timothy 1:17;
2 Timothy 4:18;
Hebrews 13:21
("[to Whom] be glory _____" ; "be honour and glory _____");


--1 Peter 4:11;
1 Peter 5:11;
Revelation 1:6
("to Him/Whom be glory/praise/dominion ____");


--Revelation 1:18;
Revelation 4:9;
Revelation 4:10;
Revelation 5:14;
Revelation 10:6;
Revelation 15:7
("I am alive ____" ; "[Him] Who/that liveth ____" ; "God, Who liveth ____");


--Revelation 5:13;
Revelation 7:12;
Revelation 11:15;
Revelation 22:5
("and unto the Lamb ___" ; "be unto our God ____" ; "and He shall reign ____" ; "and they shall reign ___");




____________

[each of the above verses uses the phrase "unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]"--key phrase found in the remaining 3 verses not shown in THIS post here ^ ]

 

[Laura798]

^ ...and as I said, after "DEATH" is "destroyed [G2673 - I make idle (inactive), make of no effect, annul, abolish, bring to naught; to render inoperative]"... no one will experience that as they had previously to this point (the GWTj point in time);

Thereafter is the "SECOND DEATH" (in the "lake of fire" which is stated to be "unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]")... one cannot "DIE" out-from it ("DEATH" will have been "rendered inoperative" at this point in the chronology / the GWTj point in time).




[death is separation]



Much of the confusion surrounding this topic is the matter of "CHRONOLOGY," as I said... (especially with regard to the various "judgments"---WHEN they variously occur...)

Divinewatermark--it would behoove you, if you want us to gain understanding to try to write ina more clear and straightforward
manner.

Here you say: "

Divinewatermark: Thereafter is the "SECOND DEATH" (in the "lake of fire" which is stated to be "unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]")...

Laura's response: ???

one cannot "DIE" out-from it ("DEATH" will have been "rendered inoperative" at this point in the chronology / the GWTj point in time).

Laura's response: ???


Divinwatermark: [death is separation]" -


Laura's response: ???


How do we come to truth or reality if you re-define the meaning of words? Have you ever read the book '1984'--where they redefine words? It makes everything NONSENSE.

"If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn’t. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn’t be. And what it wouldn’t be, it would. You see?”--The Mad Hatter

"

 

[Laura798]

Gardenias,

The only thing I am contrary to is false doctrine. You make claims on an emotional basis rather than a rational one.

I've noticed a pattern in these forums, that when someone has the wrong end of the stick, they began attacking and name calling, leaving out scripture and speaking out of their own ideas.

"The Bereans were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."-- Acts 17:11

Note too, that you quote the verse that proves you wrong. There is only ONE Eternal Life and that is for the believer. You attempt to change the definition of Death to Eternal Torment, but of course that would mean those persons would also receive the gift of eternal life--therefore they HAVE NOT DIED.

Death: the permanent end of something that is not alive : the ruin or destruction of something

 

[p_rehbein]

Note too, that you quote the verse that proves you wrong. There is only ONE Eternal Life and that is for the believer. You attempt to change the definition of Death to Eternal Torment, but of course that would mean those persons would also receive the gift of eternal life--therefore they HAVE NOT DIED.

A sad understanding of Scripture................Eternal life/eternal damnation........BOTH are eternal.........goodness........

 

[Laura798]

A sad understanding of Scripture................Eternal life/eternal damnation........BOTH are eternal.........goodness........

Here we go again--people who speak from their own ideas, rather than supporting their argument with scripture--I can see too, that you've jumped in without having looked at any of our arguments along with the supporting verses. This isn't a battle. This is trying to get to the TRUTH of what God's words says. Those of us, who believe in Annihilation, feel it is blasphemy to attribute evil to God. This doctrine of eternal torment is the very worst of all the false doctrines perpetrated by the so called 'church' throughout the centuries--it is one of the "doctrine of demons" spoken of in Scripture. We are warned NOT to turn aside to myths.

"It should be easy enough to see that all of this stuff you just read comes from ancient mythology. A myth is a false story otherwise known as a fable. None of this stuff is truth. It is no more true than the Loch Ness Monster of the Scottish Highlands. There were many other pagan beliefs that crept in to the minds of God’s people including man having an immortal soul, belief in reincarnation, and the afterlife. Many people today still believe these things that have their origin from ancient pagan belief systems. Over the centuries, new ideologies were formed to create this modern view of hell more specific, eternal punishment. The sad truth is that these pagan ideas have no origin in the holy scriptures. If you choose to continue believing this garbage, you are simply putting your faith in lies and the bible teaches us that the devil is the father of lies."

https://therealgospelofchrist.com/the-origin-of-hell/

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

(in the "lake of fire" which is stated to be "unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]")...

Laura's response: ???

What don't you "see" about the phrase "unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]"??

I listed them out in a couple of past posts (in Post #196 [all 21 of them] and in Post #208 in part).

 

[Laura798]

What don't you "see" about the phrase "unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]"??

I listed them out in a couple of past posts (in Post #196 and in Post #208 in part).

Well you need to clarify your point for one--unto the ages--what is it you are addressing here? We're not going go back to old posts--you need to explain your position in this thread.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ The phrase (specifically) "unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" refers to what we call "forever" or never-ending. (21x)




It is DISTINCT from other similarly-sounding phrases.





____________

So...

"unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" -

(what we call "forever" / "eternity" / "eternal" / endlessness, etc),

...found in the following verses:


--Galatians 1:5;
Philippians 4:20;
1 Timothy 1:17;
2 Timothy 4:18;
Hebrews 13:21
("[to Whom] be glory _____" ; "be honour and glory _____");


--1 Peter 4:11;
1 Peter 5:11;
Revelation 1:6
("to Him/Whom be glory/praise/dominion ____");


--Revelation 1:18;
Revelation 4:9;
Revelation 4:10;
Revelation 5:14;
Revelation 10:6;
Revelation 15:7
("I am alive ____" ; "[Him] Who/that liveth ____" ; "God, Who liveth ____");


--Revelation 5:13;
Revelation 7:12;
Revelation 11:15;
Revelation 22:5
("and unto the Lamb ___" ; "be unto our God ____" ; "and He shall reign ____" ; "and they shall reign ___");




____________

[each of the above verses uses the phrase "unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]"--key phrase found in the remaining 3 verses not shown in THIS post here ^ (namely, passages under present discussion)]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ I ask that you EXAMINE THE SCRIPTURES ^ (the ones I'm referring to which contain THIS PHRASE... 21 times)




"Now these, who were more noble than those in Thessalonica, received the word with all readiness, on every day examining the Scriptures, whether these things were so."

 

[Gardenias]

Please explain Adam’s and Eve’s death after eating the fruit. e.g. “What was the manner of their death”?

Romans 5:12/19
James 1:15
Romans 6:23
1Corinthians 15:56

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Dear Lucy,

I'm sorry, but a place of eternal is a myth--you said the alternative is"eternal burning' but you won't find that term used in Scripture anywhere. It is Eternal Destruction and Eternal Punishment--all things ending with 'tion' and 'ment' are completed/finished--it is not ongoing--the eternal means there is no coming back from it. Also you say you can't judge God--but Satan is the author of the doctrine of eternal torment as he is so many false doctrines in our churches. Also Jeus said,

"Do not fear those who can kill the body, rather fear the One who can destroy both body and SOUL in hell"

“And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭66:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the living spirit in man is eternal the flesh is not at a persons death the spirit returns to God who gave the spirit of life and the body returns To The dust it was created from it’s the exact opposite of creation a body is made of dust the. The spirit gives the body life

the spirit parts the body at death and the body returns to dust while the persons living spirit goes to
Christ for judgement

Creation

“And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground,

and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;

and man became a living soul.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and at death

“Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:

and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

To Understand how man is created having a body and then a living spirit within the body like a tabernacle to dwell In on earth. But also the spirit is eternal coming out from God the father of spirit so it can be with the lord forever or choose satans eternal Home where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth and the work does not die nor thier spark is never quenched.

spirit is eternal so there’s a place with the lord when we die for our spirit or there is a place with Satan and his family when we die.

when we die The exact opposite of creation happens first the body dies and then The spirit returns to God.

it’s what makes this sure for every living person for believers who are made alive from death by the gospel


“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they will Part thier flesh and go alive by the spirit to appear before the lord being judged by the gospel in which they believed

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

They heard the good news about eternal
Life and repented and believed the gospel

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:51‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they realize they are being saved from death beforehand being part of the first resurrection of the spirit , and the death of thier body is only a stage of life because of Christ

“Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

death doesn’t cease a Christians life anymore it’s only then moving from broken down rental house into an everlasting mansion in the true promised land


And then , non believers who die in thier sins

“Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:21, 23-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬


It’s different if we die in sin having no remission than if we receive remission of our sins baptized into Christ and believe the gospel and follow the lords ways

They who do not believe are waiting in thier graves ,or in the prison of Sheol or in hell , or in some form of torment or sleep until the last day.


at the last day of this creation the dead will rise to be judged the living accepted the gospel in life

“And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Christians who are baptized into Christs death are already alive from death and are saved from that jidgement of the dead. But it’s definately designed as a place of punishment and torment and living spirit doesn’t die as does flesh it came from God and lasts forever

 

[Laura798]

^ The phrase (specifically) "unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" refers to what we call "forever" or never-ending. (21x)




It is DISTINCT from other similarly-sounding phrases.





____________

So...

"unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" -

(what we call "forever" / "eternity" / "eternal" / endlessness, etc),

...found in the following verses:


--Galatians 1:5;
Philippians 4:20;
1 Timothy 1:17;
2 Timothy 4:18;
Hebrews 13:21
("[to Whom] be glory _____" ; "be honour and glory _____");


--1 Peter 4:11;
1 Peter 5:11;
Revelation 1:6
("to Him/Whom be glory/praise/dominion ____");


--Revelation 1:18;
Revelation 4:9;
Revelation 4:10;
Revelation 5:14;
Revelation 10:6;
Revelation 15:7
("I am alive ____" ; "[Him] Who/that liveth ____" ; "God, Who liveth ____");


--Revelation 5:13;
Revelation 7:12;
Revelation 11:15;
Revelation 22:5
("and unto the Lamb ___" ; "be unto our God ____" ; "and He shall reign ____" ; "and they shall reign ___");




____________

[each of the above verses uses the phrase "unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]"--key phrase found in the remaining 3 verses not shown in THIS post here ^ (namely, passages under present discussion)]

I'm still not sure DW, what you are referring to with the term 'ages of ages'--I think it makes for complication. I didn't see anywhere where the term 'eternal' was in question. I don't see how 'unto the ages' clarifies an argument for eternal torment.
for
The only age of ages--which reference time, is that our current world will come to an end at which time, TIME as we know it will cease to exist.

(As Occam's Razor states: The simplest answer to something is preferable to one that is more complex.)

Ages of Ages,

In Book 5, Chapter 38, Section 5, the Etymologiæ say:

The term 'age' properly is used in two ways:​

either as an age of a human – as infancy, youth, old age –​

or as an age of the world,​

whose first age is from Adam to Noah;​

second from Noah to Abraham;​

third from Abraham to David;​

fourth from David to the exile of Judah to Babylon;​

fifth from then [the Babylonian captivity], to the advent of our Savior in the flesh;​

sixth, which is now under way, to when the world itself comes to an end.​

The succession of these ages through generations and reigns is thus reviewed.​

https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/43927/what-does-ages-of-ages-mean-specifically

 

[Nehemiah6]

Here we go again--people who speak from their own ideas, rather than supporting their argument with scripture...

Laura you have been presented with plenty of Scriptures to REFUTE you and your unbiblical ideas.

And so far you have shown that you do not understand anything. If you are here to learn something become a student. If you are are to promote false teachings, you will have a hard time presenting nonsense. And if you are here simply to troll, have fun.