The Woman and the Man-Child

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Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
3,043
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#1
Revelation 12: 1-6 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.

3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

First, some definitions:

The Woman = the church
The Dragon = Satan
The Man-Child = those in the church who have matured who walk and live in the Spirit of Christ
Caught Up = Because they are mature, these saints are able to handle the affairs of their Father’s House, they are given authority by their Father to transact Kingdom matters, this is not a reference to a “rapture”.


When God gave the promise to Abraham, the descendants of Abraham, over time, became so corrupt that eventually they killed the very One whose coming was the very reason that the nation existed. But has God cast away Israel? The answer is no, because He will save a remnant on account of the promise He made to Abraham.

Does that mean He is going to save everybody? No. This woman has in it both the potential of a remnant, and those who are representative of those who have fallen away. This three and a half years is a time for repentance, when the truth is being brought forth by the pattern Son living in the corporate man. There is a separation out of the woman, just like birth is a separation of the child from the woman. The woman and the child are no longer conflated when birth occurs.

The law was a schoolmaster to bring the people to Christ. Institutional Christianity preserved a cultural likeness to Christ, just like the law and the Jewish culture were placeholders until the real culture of the Kingdom of Heaven was to come. In the case of Christ, when He came, the nation of Israel was destroyed but for a remnant. And in the case of this man Child, when He emerges out of the woman, she will go into obscurity but for a remnant as well. It is the same story.

But God has mercy on her in her wanderings in the wilderness because she was not caught up to God and to His throne. In other words, she was not part of that which lived in Christ, moved in Christ, and had its very being in Christ, like He was in the Father. So, the Father is not in the institution. The institution is never about the Fatherhood of God, God the Father. The institution has always been about getting a pass out of trouble, going to heaven when you die, or some form of humanistic psychology designed to give you “your best life now”. They do not preach the message of sonship or of God as our Father. If you are in the institution, you have very little understanding and no encouragement to be a faithful son to the Father. You are always being told to go to heaven when you die or to “do things for God”. But in Christ, you bear the name of the Father on your forehead.

The woman will wander in the wilderness and she will not have power, although God will have mercy on her for the sake of a remnant yet in her. There will be a time when she becomes the harlot of Babylon, and God will decree that it is time for the remnant to come out of her. But for a while the desert will swallow up the flood of dissipation and false information about her that will come from the world. The world is going to paint the woman out of whom the mature Son comes in the most horrifying of circumstances. Everything that was said about the woman at the beginning, clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and a crown of twelve stars… all of that, the light and glory of her was because of what she was carrying in her, not really because of who she was. When He is separated from her through birth, she does not become caught up to God or function by the authority of His throne. She wanders in the wilderness, the same woman, wanders in the wilderness and ultimately is revealed differently in the Scriptures. We are seeing this today: the church has become the primary source of support for the basest of men and the social platform for policies that are contrary to the nature of God and His creation.

Grace,
Aaron56
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
5,440
3,219
113
#2
Revelation 12: 1-6 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.

3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

First, some definitions:

The Woman = the church
The Dragon = Satan
The Man-Child = those in the church who have matured who walk and live in the Spirit of Christ
Caught Up = Because they are mature, these saints are able to handle the affairs of their Father’s House, they are given authority by their Father to transact Kingdom matters, this is not a reference to a “rapture”.


When God gave the promise to Abraham, the descendants of Abraham, over time, became so corrupt that eventually they killed the very One whose coming was the very reason that the nation existed. But has God cast away Israel? The answer is no, because He will save a remnant on account of the promise He made to Abraham.

Does that mean He is going to save everybody? No. This woman has in it both the potential of a remnant, and those who are representative of those who have fallen away. This three and a half years is a time for repentance, when the truth is being brought forth by the pattern Son living in the corporate man. There is a separation out of the woman, just like birth is a separation of the child from the woman. The woman and the child are no longer conflated when birth occurs.

The law was a schoolmaster to bring the people to Christ. Institutional Christianity preserved a cultural likeness to Christ, just like the law and the Jewish culture were placeholders until the real culture of the Kingdom of Heaven was to come. In the case of Christ, when He came, the nation of Israel was destroyed but for a remnant. And in the case of this man Child, when He emerges out of the woman, she will go into obscurity but for a remnant as well. It is the same story.

But God has mercy on her in her wanderings in the wilderness because she was not caught up to God and to His throne. In other words, she was not part of that which lived in Christ, moved in Christ, and had its very being in Christ, like He was in the Father. So, the Father is not in the institution. The institution is never about the Fatherhood of God, God the Father. The institution has always been about getting a pass out of trouble, going to heaven when you die, or some form of humanistic psychology designed to give you “your best life now”. They do not preach the message of sonship or of God as our Father. If you are in the institution, you have very little understanding and no encouragement to be a faithful son to the Father. You are always being told to go to heaven when you die or to “do things for God”. But in Christ, you bear the name of the Father on your forehead.

The woman will wander in the wilderness and she will not have power, although God will have mercy on her for the sake of a remnant yet in her. There will be a time when she becomes the harlot of Babylon, and God will decree that it is time for the remnant to come out of her. But for a while the desert will swallow up the flood of dissipation and false information about her that will come from the world. The world is going to paint the woman out of whom the mature Son comes in the most horrifying of circumstances. Everything that was said about the woman at the beginning, clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and a crown of twelve stars… all of that, the light and glory of her was because of what she was carrying in her, not really because of who she was. When He is separated from her through birth, she does not become caught up to God or function by the authority of His throne. She wanders in the wilderness, the same woman, wanders in the wilderness and ultimately is revealed differently in the Scriptures. We are seeing this today: the church has become the primary source of support for the basest of men and the social platform for policies that are contrary to the nature of God and His creation.

Grace,
Aaron56
If you want the best understanding of this difficult passage, I suggest that you read "God's plan and the overcomers" by Watchman Nee. It's not what you think.
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
3,043
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#3
If you want the best understanding of this difficult passage, I suggest that you read "God's plan and the overcomers" by Watchman Nee. It's not what you think.
I have read much of Nee’s work. He had incredible insight and I respect him greatly but he wasn’t right about everything. As the Day grows closer, understanding about the Day and the times will increase.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
42,654
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Tennessee
#4
Caught Up = Because they are mature, these saints are able to handle the affairs of their Father’s House, they are given authority by their Father to transact Kingdom matters, this is not a reference to a “rapture”.
It certainly appears to be a reference to a rapture and is not all that other stuff about mature saints etc.
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
5,894
1,084
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Oregon
#5
.
It's thought by some that the woman spoken of in Rev 12:1-6 is a reflection
of Gen 37:9-10 where Joseph's dream represents Jacob's family, viz: the
people of Israel; and that the child spoken of is a reflection of Ps 2:1-12 and
Dan 7:13-14 where the psalm plus Daniel's dream represent Christ.
_
 
O

Omegatime

Guest
#6
Revelation 12: 1-6 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.

3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

First, some definitions:

The Woman = the church
The Dragon = Satan
The Man-Child = those in the church who have matured who walk and live in the Spirit of Christ
Caught Up = Because they are mature, these saints are able to handle the affairs of their Father’s House, they are given authority by their Father to transact Kingdom matters, this is not a reference to a “rapture”.


When God gave the promise to Abraham, the descendants of Abraham, over time, became so corrupt that eventually they killed the very One whose coming was the very reason that the nation existed. But has God cast away Israel? The answer is no, because He will save a remnant on account of the promise He made to Abraham.

Does that mean He is going to save everybody? No. This woman has in it both the potential of a remnant, and those who are representative of those who have fallen away. This three and a half years is a time for repentance, when the truth is being brought forth by the pattern Son living in the corporate man. There is a separation out of the woman, just like birth is a separation of the child from the woman. The woman and the child are no longer conflated when birth occurs.

The law was a schoolmaster to bring the people to Christ. Institutional Christianity preserved a cultural likeness to Christ, just like the law and the Jewish culture were placeholders until the real culture of the Kingdom of Heaven was to come. In the case of Christ, when He came, the nation of Israel was destroyed but for a remnant. And in the case of this man Child, when He emerges out of the woman, she will go into obscurity but for a remnant as well. It is the same story.

But God has mercy on her in her wanderings in the wilderness because she was not caught up to God and to His throne. In other words, she was not part of that which lived in Christ, moved in Christ, and had its very being in Christ, like He was in the Father. So, the Father is not in the institution. The institution is never about the Fatherhood of God, God the Father. The institution has always been about getting a pass out of trouble, going to heaven when you die, or some form of humanistic psychology designed to give you “your best life now”. They do not preach the message of sonship or of God as our Father. If you are in the institution, you have very little understanding and no encouragement to be a faithful son to the Father. You are always being told to go to heaven when you die or to “do things for God”. But in Christ, you bear the name of the Father on your forehead.

The woman will wander in the wilderness and she will not have power, although God will have mercy on her for the sake of a remnant yet in her. There will be a time when she becomes the harlot of Babylon, and God will decree that it is time for the remnant to come out of her. But for a while the desert will swallow up the flood of dissipation and false information about her that will come from the world. The world is going to paint the woman out of whom the mature Son comes in the most horrifying of circumstances. Everything that was said about the woman at the beginning, clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and a crown of twelve stars… all of that, the light and glory of her was because of what she was carrying in her, not really because of who she was. When He is separated from her through birth, she does not become caught up to God or function by the authority of His throne. She wanders in the wilderness, the same woman, wanders in the wilderness and ultimately is revealed differently in the Scriptures. We are seeing this today: the church has become the primary source of support for the basest of men and the social platform for policies that are contrary to the nature of God and His creation.

Grace,
Aaron56
Sounds somewhat like was written by a 3rd generation disciple of Apostle John'

By the woman then clothed with the sun, he meant most manifestly the Church, endued with the Father's word, whose brightness is above the sun. And by the moon under her feet he referred to her being adorned, like the moon, with heavenly glory. And the words, upon her head a crown of twelve stars, refer to the twelve apostles by whom the Church was founded. And those, she, being with child, cries, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered, mean that the Church will not cease to bear from her heart the Word that is persecuted by the unbelieving in the world. And she brought forth, he says, a man-child, who is to rule all the nations; by which is meant that the Church, always bringing forth Christ, the perfect man-child of God, who is declared to be God and man, becomes the instructor of all the nations. And the words, her child was caught up unto God and to His throne, signify that he who is always born of her is a heavenly king, and not an earthly; even as David also declared of old when he said, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I make Your enemies Your footstool. And the dragon, he says, saw and persecuted the woman which brought forth the man- child. And to the woman were given two wings of the great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city, and seeks conceal-meat in the wilderness among the mountains, possessed of no other defense than the two wings of the great eagle, that is to say, the faith of Jesus Christ, who, in stretching forth His holy hands on the holy tree, unfolded two wings, the right and the left, and called to Him all who believed upon Him, and covered them as a hen her chickens. For by the mouth of Malachi also He speaks thus: And unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in His wings.
 

de-emerald

Well-known member
May 8, 2021
1,652
574
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#7
Revelation 12: 1-6 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.



Grace,
Aaron56
Hi Aaron56 your a pleasant and tolerant brother i have come to respect here. i enjoy your posts. Firstly the scripture is more about the birth of Jesus than the rapture to me.

The birth of Jesus when he was born in the body of mary his spirit of light was also reborn in the heavens and the stars. it was not only an earthly rebirth but a universal one to me that invovled the whole cosmos. The twelve stars is also the twelves stones given to the twelves sons of isreal in remeberance of those 12 stars. in the heavens the colors of the the 12 stones is the same as the twelve stars you mention here in my book anyways the 12 stars where the light that was needed to reincarnate Jesus the light from heaven into mary the human.

I believe that the light of those twelve stars was also incarnated to Jacob. and from the star of emerald came Juda then came Jesus. this is my revalation from the heavens that came to me from doing a lot of Gazing into theese 12 stone to which i have all twelve stones theese stones are very holy. I was blown away when this revalation came to me.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,602
13,861
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#8
Revelation 12: 1-6...
First, some definitions:

The Woman = the church
The Dragon = Satan
The Man-Child = those in the church who have matured who walk and live in the Spirit of Christ
Caught Up = Because they are mature, these saints are able to handle the affairs of their Father’s House, they are given authority by their Father to transact Kingdom matters, this is not a reference to a “rapture”.
On what basis do you make these definitions? You seem to be presenting a preconceived theological position, not drawing one from the text.
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
3,043
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#9
It certainly appears to be a reference to a rapture and is not all that other stuff about mature saints etc.
We think that way (must be rapture) because we were never taught that the kingdom is in the earth and within us. We’re always waiting for something when the reality is at hand and we may possess it today.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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#10
We think that way (must be rapture) because we were never taught that the kingdom is in the earth and within us. We’re always waiting for something when the reality is at hand and we may possess it today.
To me, 'caught up', in the context of scripture which it was presented, indicates suddenly going from one place to another place. Few, if any, would take it to mean mature saints handling the affairs of their Father's house, given authority to conduct kingdom matters. Makes no sense whatsoever.
 

stilllearning

Well-known member
Oct 4, 2021
598
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#12
I find the woman is natural Israel or political Israel. The man child is Christ and the caught up is his ascension. The dragon of course the devil. I have found that this is where the shift from salvation of gentiles to Israel happens.

Paul says in Ephesians 3:2-7, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

As well he lets us know there will be a time when there is the fullness of us gentiles. Romans 11:24-25 says, For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

So for me I have read this as such.

Revelation 10:7 reads, But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The 7th angel sounds in Revelation 11:15, And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Chapter 12 then gives us a picture of natural Israel. Then Chapter 13:8 reads, And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Also reiterates again in chapter 17:8, The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

So I have read it as gentiles who will be saved are so, until chapter 12 which then shifts to Israel and then the mark introduced and of course is plain those who receive it were never gonna be saved from the foundation of the earth as there name was never written.

So anyway that is how I have read what is going on in the end of chapter 11, chapter 12, and into chapter 13.
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
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#13
To me, 'caught up', in the context of scripture which it was presented, indicates suddenly going from one place to another place. Few, if any, would take it to mean mature saints handling the affairs of their Father's house, given authority to conduct kingdom matters. Makes no sense whatsoever.
“For our lives are now hidden with God, in Christ so that when Christ who is our life appears, we shall appear with Him in glory.”

And…

“A child is born” but “a son is given”

“God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself”

For the mature son, the “caught up” is not sudden but from the perspective of the world it is sudden “today this scripture is fulfilled in your presence”.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
42,654
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#14
“For our lives are now hidden with God, in Christ so that when Christ who is our life appears, we shall appear with Him in glory.”

And…

“A child is born” but “a son is given”

“God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself”

For the mature son, the “caught up” is not sudden but from the perspective of the world it is sudden “today this scripture is fulfilled in your presence”.
Sorry, I'm just not getting it. Moving forward now.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,923
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#15
It certainly appears to be a reference to a rapture and is not all that other stuff about mature saints etc.
I agree with your statement.





[I must note, in addition to this, that I see "the man child" as being more than just Jesus Himself [HEAD] (alone), but as "His Body" ALSO--the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY... so that the "harpazo [G726]" of this verse (Rev12:5) pertains to us... And verses I see similarly / relatedly would be 2Cor4:14 (note the Grk word translated "through" at this link, being "G4862 - UNIONed-with [Jesus]" ("future" tense aspect)- https://biblehub.com/text/2_corinthians/4-14.htm ; and verses such as 1Cor12:12 "so also is THE Christ" (see entire verse) - https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/12-12.htm ; and 1Cor6:14 the VERB in reference TO US / the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY;
note also, this does not mean I believe our "harpazo [G726]" occurs at MID-trib... verse 13 says, "[the woman] which HAD BROUGHT FORTH the male [G730]"]
 
Last edited:

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,747
6,913
113
#16
First, some definitions:

The Woman = the church
The Dragon = Satan
The Man-Child = those in the church who have matured who walk and live in the Spirit of Christ
Caught Up = Because they are mature, these saints are able to handle the affairs of their Father’s House, they are given authority by their Father to transact Kingdom matters, this is not a reference to a “rapture”.
Hmm............is this just your speculations?
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,747
6,913
113
#17
“God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself”
God wasn't "in Christ," Jesus the Christ IS GOD THE SON! He is fully God, and when here on earth, He was fully man AND fully God..........
 
Aug 2, 2021
7,317
2,048
113
#18
Revelation 12: 1-6 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.

3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

First, some definitions:

The Woman = the church
The Dragon = Satan
The Man-Child = those in the church who have matured who walk and live in the Spirit of Christ
Caught Up = Because they are mature, these saints are able to handle the affairs of their Father’s House, they are given authority by their Father to transact Kingdom matters, this is not a reference to a “rapture”.


When God gave the promise to Abraham, the descendants of Abraham, over time, became so corrupt that eventually they killed the very One whose coming was the very reason that the nation existed. But has God cast away Israel? The answer is no, because He will save a remnant on account of the promise He made to Abraham.

Does that mean He is going to save everybody? No. This woman has in it both the potential of a remnant, and those who are representative of those who have fallen away. This three and a half years is a time for repentance, when the truth is being brought forth by the pattern Son living in the corporate man. There is a separation out of the woman, just like birth is a separation of the child from the woman. The woman and the child are no longer conflated when birth occurs.

The law was a schoolmaster to bring the people to Christ. Institutional Christianity preserved a cultural likeness to Christ, just like the law and the Jewish culture were placeholders until the real culture of the Kingdom of Heaven was to come. In the case of Christ, when He came, the nation of Israel was destroyed but for a remnant. And in the case of this man Child, when He emerges out of the woman, she will go into obscurity but for a remnant as well. It is the same story.

But God has mercy on her in her wanderings in the wilderness because she was not caught up to God and to His throne. In other words, she was not part of that which lived in Christ, moved in Christ, and had its very being in Christ, like He was in the Father. So, the Father is not in the institution. The institution is never about the Fatherhood of God, God the Father. The institution has always been about getting a pass out of trouble, going to heaven when you die, or some form of humanistic psychology designed to give you “your best life now”. They do not preach the message of sonship or of God as our Father. If you are in the institution, you have very little understanding and no encouragement to be a faithful son to the Father. You are always being told to go to heaven when you die or to “do things for God”. But in Christ, you bear the name of the Father on your forehead.

The woman will wander in the wilderness and she will not have power, although God will have mercy on her for the sake of a remnant yet in her. There will be a time when she becomes the harlot of Babylon, and God will decree that it is time for the remnant to come out of her. But for a while the desert will swallow up the flood of dissipation and false information about her that will come from the world. The world is going to paint the woman out of whom the mature Son comes in the most horrifying of circumstances. Everything that was said about the woman at the beginning, clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and a crown of twelve stars… all of that, the light and glory of her was because of what she was carrying in her, not really because of who she was. When He is separated from her through birth, she does not become caught up to God or function by the authority of His throne. She wanders in the wilderness, the same woman, wanders in the wilderness and ultimately is revealed differently in the Scriptures. We are seeing this today: the church has become the primary source of support for the basest of men and the social platform for policies that are contrary to the nature of God and His creation.

Grace,
Aaron56
I have read Watchman Knee and agree that he had some beautiful insight - but you need to stay with Scripture.

Can you provide some scripture where you believe the woman of Rev 12 becomes the Harlot of Rev 18

Peace and love from God above where we are seated if your sins are deleted.