What are you thoughts on Annihilation?
- Thread starter Radius
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I think ultimately we aren't required to have a perfect understanding in order to be saved. Either perspective is consistent with scripture. The next step is therefore to determine which one we find more compelling.
Let's follow the steps that are described in scripture:
1. A person dies. They either:
A) sleep in death
B) remain awake in a good state of mind
C) remain awake in torment (Rich man in Hades, if that parable was literal)
2. People remain in that previous state until the day of judgement. The day of judgement happens and the resurrection occurs. People either:
A) Have their name in the book of life and eventually enter purification.
B) Are not listed in the book of life and are cast into the Lake of Fire with Satan and the false prophets.
3. The saved are purified. Satan and the false prophets are tormented. It is unclear whether the other category are awake or annihilated but the 'smoke of their torment rises forever'.
4. The phrasing for the torment is "everlasting" but the Greek word can also be understood as "perpetually". Earth and heaven fade away. If the Lake of Fire is located in earth, it too fades away. "Fading" could be understood as disappearing/annihilation but it could also be understood figuratively, simply as a change of focus in John the Revelator's vision. Assuming the lake of fire is in earth, either:
A) the unsaved are annihilated when the first earth and heaven fade away.
B) The unsaved have simply faded out of view, but remain in unending torment in the first earth.
This feels like one of those conversations about "how tall was Moses' staff?" It feels trivial but people will vehemently argue over it. Annihilationism makes more sense to me, but I don't see it as a show-stopper if someone came to a different conclusion.
I suppose an interesting question to ask those opposed to annihilationism: When the negative and sinful parts of your life are removed during the judgement day purification, are those parts of you annihilated or do they continue to exist eternally separated from God?
Let's follow the steps that are described in scripture:
1. A person dies. They either:
A) sleep in death
B) remain awake in a good state of mind
C) remain awake in torment (Rich man in Hades, if that parable was literal)
2. People remain in that previous state until the day of judgement. The day of judgement happens and the resurrection occurs. People either:
A) Have their name in the book of life and eventually enter purification.
B) Are not listed in the book of life and are cast into the Lake of Fire with Satan and the false prophets.
3. The saved are purified. Satan and the false prophets are tormented. It is unclear whether the other category are awake or annihilated but the 'smoke of their torment rises forever'.
4. The phrasing for the torment is "everlasting" but the Greek word can also be understood as "perpetually". Earth and heaven fade away. If the Lake of Fire is located in earth, it too fades away. "Fading" could be understood as disappearing/annihilation but it could also be understood figuratively, simply as a change of focus in John the Revelator's vision. Assuming the lake of fire is in earth, either:
A) the unsaved are annihilated when the first earth and heaven fade away.
B) The unsaved have simply faded out of view, but remain in unending torment in the first earth.
This feels like one of those conversations about "how tall was Moses' staff?" It feels trivial but people will vehemently argue over it. Annihilationism makes more sense to me, but I don't see it as a show-stopper if someone came to a different conclusion.
I suppose an interesting question to ask those opposed to annihilationism: When the negative and sinful parts of your life are removed during the judgement day purification, are those parts of you annihilated or do they continue to exist eternally separated from God?
-
1
-
1
- Show all
Dear Radius,
Fire in this context signifies COMPLETE AND TOTAL destruction-- if a fire were to burn forever, then the thing it burned would be completely destroyed.
it is important to note that this is a parable. Jesus said he spoke to the people in parables and used figurative language.--see verses below Note too, it is the FIRE burning forever, not the angels and the demons; they are spiritual beings, therefore they do not consist of matter, therefore cannot burn.
But He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!” (Exodus 33:20)
This is what scriptures says. Only those covered by the righteousness of Christ will live--forever.
How important it is to let go of long held doctrine and instead consider what the scriptures actually mean--and the only way to do this is to take of the lens of long held doctrine.
"'Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable' (Mt 13:34),
"“Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father."--John 16:25
If this doctrine were clothes that one had to wear, they would be ashamed as they would be completed covered in holes.
Fire in this context signifies COMPLETE AND TOTAL destruction-- if a fire were to burn forever, then the thing it burned would be completely destroyed.
it is important to note that this is a parable. Jesus said he spoke to the people in parables and used figurative language.--see verses below Note too, it is the FIRE burning forever, not the angels and the demons; they are spiritual beings, therefore they do not consist of matter, therefore cannot burn.
But He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!” (Exodus 33:20)
This is what scriptures says. Only those covered by the righteousness of Christ will live--forever.
How important it is to let go of long held doctrine and instead consider what the scriptures actually mean--and the only way to do this is to take of the lens of long held doctrine.
"'Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable' (Mt 13:34),
"“Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father."--John 16:25
If this doctrine were clothes that one had to wear, they would be ashamed as they would be completed covered in holes.
What is TRUTH? Scripture tells us plainly what it is. God is a God of justice--this means he fairly metes out His Justice. He is above all a God of love and a God of mercy. We ought never to equate evil with God. It is after Jesus is accused of having a demon ( equating evil to God), that he says:
"All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men; but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven unto men" (Matthew 12:31).
"All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men; but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven unto men" (Matthew 12:31).
Dear Jocund, I like the way you laid this out, but there are a bits I wonder about, namely that you say it is trivial. Note that many innocent people have suffered over the years thinking their loved ones are being eternally tormented. Have you ever burned your finger on the stove? Just mulitiply that by a trillion to the 10th power if eternal torment were to be true. Also it attributes evil to God--this is the very worst of it.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
many presuppositions you have made then to say "I think ultimately we aren't required to have a perfect understanding in order to be saved. Either perspective is consistent with scripture. "
I disagree that a person's soul sleeps no biblical context. The Parable of " a certain rich man and Lazarus " is to be applied to all Jesu said about hell and eternal judgment. The reason for the Parable as Jesus said so those hearing would not understand, they are truth spoken in a story. The Idea the Greek is "perpetually" for everlasting in context to life or hell is not keeping contextually the text in which it was said.
-
1
- Show all
Why was hell made? For Lucifer and the angels that rebelled against God with him.
Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft the word says. Rebellion ( disobedience and unbelief are two grievous sins.)
God created Lucifer with all the beauty we can never imagine and a voice to sing awesome praise to him.
Pride got in the way then rebellion.
Revelations tells of the angel that keeps the key where Satan will go and then be loosed after the thousand years to pull more into destruction with him.
If you believe ETERNAL,means forever til there is no more then why would you believe the wicked and ungodly will escape the ETERNAL torment in the lake of fire where the fire is NOT quenched nor the worm dieth.
Why serve him if when we are unbelieving and disobedient the suffering will ONLY be for a short time then its over.
Yes God is merciful and loving but he is also a God of wrath!
Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft the word says. Rebellion ( disobedience and unbelief are two grievous sins.)
God created Lucifer with all the beauty we can never imagine and a voice to sing awesome praise to him.
Pride got in the way then rebellion.
Revelations tells of the angel that keeps the key where Satan will go and then be loosed after the thousand years to pull more into destruction with him.
If you believe ETERNAL,means forever til there is no more then why would you believe the wicked and ungodly will escape the ETERNAL torment in the lake of fire where the fire is NOT quenched nor the worm dieth.
Why serve him if when we are unbelieving and disobedient the suffering will ONLY be for a short time then its over.
Yes God is merciful and loving but he is also a God of wrath!
-
1
-
1
- Show all
those who are standing before the Great White Throne Judgment were dead yet they stood before the Lord then sent to the place of eternal torment.
Rev 20:11-15
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence, earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Jesus is not wasting HIS time Judging the who are standing before HIM that came from the grave, the sea, and the earth both small and great. This is not figurative or descriptive it is normative of what Jesus said Eternal judgment would be.
I person who died before they were saved and this Appointed Judgment Day will stand before the Lord that was dead but now alive facing The Eternal God in and Eternal judgment.
Those who hold to annihilationism fail to see how the position does not address those who died unsaved that must stand at this Great White Throne. They would have you believe once you are dead that it.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
I know you weren't addressing me Laura but 2 things to consider.
1 You can't call a soveriegn God evil for bringing eternal punishment. You can't judge God.
God is longsuffering & has endured much pain & sorrow himself in order to spare everyone the
fate of eternity locked away from his presence.
2 Burning a body isn't the same as burning a spirit being. Spirits can't be annhilated with fire.
They can only continue to burn.
They can be locked up away from God for eternity. The burning of that seperation is the torment.
No effort on God's part is required to torment souls, he only has to cut them off from his presence.
We choose God or we don't. The alternative is eternal burning.
There is no relief of annihilation if we choose to be without him.
1 You can't call a soveriegn God evil for bringing eternal punishment. You can't judge God.
God is longsuffering & has endured much pain & sorrow himself in order to spare everyone the
fate of eternity locked away from his presence.
2 Burning a body isn't the same as burning a spirit being. Spirits can't be annhilated with fire.
They can only continue to burn.
They can be locked up away from God for eternity. The burning of that seperation is the torment.
No effort on God's part is required to torment souls, he only has to cut them off from his presence.
We choose God or we don't. The alternative is eternal burning.
There is no relief of annihilation if we choose to be without him.
-
2
-
1
-
1
- Show all
Dear Lucy,
I'm sorry, but a place of eternal is a myth--you said the alternative is"eternal burning' but you won't find that term used in Scripture anywhere. It is Eternal Destruction and Eternal Punishment--all things ending with 'tion' and 'ment' are completed/finished--it is not ongoing--the eternal means there is no coming back from it. Also you say you can't judge God--but Satan is the author of the doctrine of eternal torment as he is so many false doctrines in our churches. Also Jeus said,
"Do not fear those who can kill the body, rather fear the One who can destroy both body and SOUL in hell"
I'm sorry, but a place of eternal is a myth--you said the alternative is"eternal burning' but you won't find that term used in Scripture anywhere. It is Eternal Destruction and Eternal Punishment--all things ending with 'tion' and 'ment' are completed/finished--it is not ongoing--the eternal means there is no coming back from it. Also you say you can't judge God--but Satan is the author of the doctrine of eternal torment as he is so many false doctrines in our churches. Also Jeus said,
"Do not fear those who can kill the body, rather fear the One who can destroy both body and SOUL in hell"
-
1
-
1
- Show all
Here's a related question, which addresses the mother doctrine to "eternal torment": "the innate immortality of the soul".
Can The Almighty create a Being He can't then uncreate (i.e.destroy)? Or better said, can the Almighty uncreate (destroy) Beings He has created, or is it impossible one they're created?
Can The Almighty create a Being He can't then uncreate (i.e.destroy)? Or better said, can the Almighty uncreate (destroy) Beings He has created, or is it impossible one they're created?
Those that wanted no part in God's plans of a new heavens & earth, are they not locked out of it?
Rev 21:27
Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful,
but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
^ The above is referring to The New Jerusalem which is in the new H & E
Rev 22:15
Outside are the dogs, those who practise magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters
and everyone who loves and practises falsehood.
Rev 21:27
Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful,
but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
^ The above is referring to The New Jerusalem which is in the new H & E
Rev 22:15
Outside are the dogs, those who practise magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters
and everyone who loves and practises falsehood.