The Institutional Church and Denominations--please share your experience

[CS1]

Accountability to whom? Every church is directly accountable to Christ (whether they know it or not), and we see that in Revelation 1-3. Christ is the Head of the Church and those who are children of God are accountable to the Head.

God did not intend His churches to become denominations, but that is how it has happened because of false prophets and teachers. Denominations want local churches to be accountable to the denomination. But that is not Scriptural.

Whether a church is independent, a house church, or an assembly meeting in a building, the important things are as shown primarily in Acts 2-6 (and other Scriptures).

1. The true and full Gospel with a serious Gospel outreach to the lost.
2. The apostles doctrines (New Testament doctrine) for believers.
3. Fellowship for believers.
4. Breaking of Bread (the Lord's Supper) for believers
5. Corporate prayers
6. Elders appointed by God who are actual shepherds
10. Deacons who are capable of doing their jobs faithfully
11. The care of widows, orphans, and needy Christians
12. Missionaries

Which means that pointing the finger at denominational churches is not the solution. Doing what is laid out in Scripture is what's important. Which today could also mean defying the powers that be, who are trying to control churches and Christians. Just as the apostles defied the religious leaders who hated Christ and the Gospel (and were willing to pay the price).

Many in the "church " at like they are not. The elders and deacons and Pastors are known as the "didōmi " Gifts of Christ to the church found in Eph 4:11.

One was a man who said IF you do not want victory over sexual sin Just tell God about it. We are accountable to Christ amen and each other. If we are not then Paul wasted his time writing to pastors and providing instruction.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Thank you, Edify--yes I pray everyday! But I read stories from across the nation and have heard from people on prayer lines-- for example in Georgia and Arizona--that they have the same concerns that I do--for example the churches no longer preaching the gospel.

I know we still have faithful believers, but they seem few and far between--it's frightening.

What's really frightening about this to me is that large numbers of people think this can't really be happening because the rapture hasn't happened yet.

 

[Marilyn]

Hi Marilyn,

I like what you've shared hear about what you're doing. It's curious that you said "Coming out of the Church System everyone wants to start a small group and then the same problems emerge. However if we look back on the early church they met in homes, ate, shared fellowshipped, did jobs for each other, lived their life amongst each other." I'm a bit confused as it seems the same thing--small group vs people meeting in homes sharing life together. I haven't as of yet been able to find a house church fellowship in my area--the reason I would like to start something. The other reason is that we are moving into dangerous times for the church and we need these small groups to be interconnected and not 501c3's.

Hi Laura,

Good point. The difference is that people gather in a small group because of .......many reasons, the leader, the time, the teaching, the whatever. However the early church gathered according to RELATIONSHIP. They started off as one then two and relationships of trust and reality formed.

In Romans 16 we read of those relationships and Paul specifically mentions things about the people whom he had lived amongst and gotten to know. When we read Paul`s second letter to the Thessalonians we see in chapter 2 how he lived and worked amongst them, as a nursing mother, and a father, (v. 7 & 11) That is not just someone who gets up and speaks once a week.

I started with one here and one there, and over time they had relationships with others. It is the networking of true relationships that will hold and connect us together.

Here is a part of a prophecy given years ago. I think it is very relevant for today.

In Christ Alone.

The Lord says -

`It is not the towering ability of individual men that will bring the close of this dispensation to an end, but it will be the ripening, the moulding, the perfecting of a Body of People that will be peculiarly Mine.

There will be no possibility for `flesh` to glory, for all will be interwoven one into the other, and in the center of them will be the fires of Divine Affection, in the center of them will be the seeds of Divine Love, in the center of them will be the deposit of the eternal Purpose of God;

And when that time will come, it will be far greater! - drawing from the earth a people (who have been Mine) in the sense of rapture; it will be the carrying away from the earth of that functional Organ from the realm of Time into its Eternal Setting.`



Prophetic Word (part of) from the Apostolic Convention in Penygroes, 1943.

Prophetic Ministry through Pastor J.D. Eynon.

 

[Marilyn]

Paul wrote to his son in the Lord, Timothy -

`You, therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit thee to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.` (2 Tim. 2: 1 & 2)

1. Paul - (amongst many others)
2. Timothy - learnt from Paul through relationship.
3. Faithful men - who will learn from Timothy.
4. Others - who will learn from the faithful men.

See how the network goes deep and not just gathering numbers to sit in pews. Each are doing the work of mentoring. Time, place, etc are not the focus but the people in relationship.

If you start off with say about 5 here and there and then they do the same (over time) and on and on, when you get to 4 deep this is what you will have -

1. 5 (you + 4 others reaching out)
2. 5 x 5 = 25
3. 25 x 5 = 125
4. 125 x 5 = 625

All up there is - 780.

That is just an illustration of `going deep` and not trying to get numbers. Mentoring means you focus on a few and over time help them to become mature so they too can help others grow to maturity. Each person is only focused on mentoring the few. It is like having say 5 children, (or what ever number) and then they have children and so on. it is as basic as that, but the relationships are the key with `mother & father` heart, (as Paul) over the years.

 

[Laura798]

Hi Laura,

Good point. The difference is that people gather in a small group because of .......many reasons, the leader, the time, the teaching, the whatever. However the early church gathered according to RELATIONSHIP. They started off as one then two and relationships of trust and reality formed.

In Romans 16 we read of those relationships and Paul specifically mentions things about the people whom he had lived amongst and gotten to know. When we read Paul`s second letter to the Thessalonians we see in chapter 2 how he lived and worked amongst them, as a nursing mother, and a father, (v. 7 & 11) That is not just someone who gets up and speaks once a week.

I started with one here and one there, and over time they had relationships with others. It is the networking of true relationships that will hold and connect us together.

Here is a part of a prophecy given years ago. I think it is very relevant for today.

In Christ Alone.

The Lord says -

`It is not the towering ability of individual men that will bring the close of this dispensation to an end, but it will be the ripening, the moulding, the perfecting of a Body of People that will be peculiarly Mine.

There will be no possibility for `flesh` to glory, for all will be interwoven one into the other, and in the center of them will be the fires of Divine Affection, in the center of them will be the seeds of Divine Love, in the center of them will be the deposit of the eternal Purpose of God;

And when that time will come, it will be far greater! - drawing from the earth a people (who have been Mine) in the sense of rapture; it will be the carrying away from the earth of that functional Organ from the realm of Time into its Eternal Setting.`



Prophetic Word (part of) from the Apostolic Convention in Penygroes, 1943.

Prophetic Ministry through Pastor J.D. Eynon.

Yes, I much agree--as I said in response to another post--I would like to be in a fellowship that is more like the 1st Century Church--people lived in community then, often with large extended families and they by need and necessity were in daily contact. We must make a concerted effort for anything like that to happen now. I for one have no family where I live and my few close friends have moved to other states. I find the Institutional Church--strange--artificial--often devoid of life--and the Spirit.

 

[Marilyn]

Yes, I much agree--as I said in response to another post--I would like to be in a fellowship that is more like the 1st Century Church--people lived in community then, often with large extended families and they by need and necessity were in daily contact. We must make a concerted effort for anything like that to happen now. I for one have no family where I live and my few close friends have moved to other states. I find the Institutional Church--strange--artificial--often devoid of life--and the Spirit.

Hi Laura,

I do feel for you. Then I was in the same situation, which actually makes us rely on God more. Have you ever read `Chasing the Dragon,` by Jackie Pullinger? A good help for our situation. Now may I suggest you ask the Lord to help you develop a relationship with one person first, and then over time another. God will connect you with some one and you can share life and God`s word together.

 

[Laura798]

Hi Laura,

I do feel for you. Then I was in the same situation, which actually makes us rely on God more. Have you ever read `Chasing the Dragon,` by Jackie Pullinger? A good help for our situation. Now may I suggest you ask the Lord to help you develop a relationship with one person first, and then over time another. God will connect you with some one and you can share life and God`s word together.

Thank you, Marilyn--I will look up the book recommendation, thank you. The one thing good that has come out of this is I have done a lot of studying and found so many things I never knew about before--one is there is a lot of false teaching in our churches today. The other just how corrupted our churches have become--and have been for some time--"Having a form of godliness, but lacking the power thereof...."

 

[Laura798]

What's really frightening about this to me is that large numbers of people think this can't really be happening because the rapture hasn't happened yet.

I'm sorry this kind of teaching made its way into the church---as so many others have over the centuries. There's a saying from one of Hitler's henchmen "If you tell a lie often enough, it becomes the truth."

 

[Gideon300]

Thank you Gideon. for your response--it is such a relief to hear from an individual that they have faced the same dilemma.

I do know Francis Chan, but unfortunately he is associated with less than savory characters, e.g. IHOP Conference-- Benny Hinn, Heidi Baker, Todd White, Rodney Howard Browne, and Bill Johnson. https://themajestysmen.com/pastorgabe/francis-chan-defends-his-friendship-with-false-teachers/

and have done some strange things like this: https://reformationcharlotte.org/2021/06/10/false-teacher-of-the-day-22-francis-chan/


I really appreciated Watchman Nee's 'The Normal Christian Life' however Witness Lee seemed to have usurped some of his teaching and there is a strange mix which unfortunately have muddied Lee's teachings.

Thanks Laura. Witness Lee was mentored by Watchman Nee. I don't know if it was a translation problem, but I too had problems with some of his concepts. I found the personality cult around him unsettling also. Having said that, I received great help and encouragement from Bill Freeman, who was greatly influenced by Nee and Lee. Bill did not promote either man as some kind of guru.

If you found Normal Christian Life helpful, you should read "The Life That Wins". It's most encouraging and practical as well. Some of Nee's stuff is as deep as the ocean and can be hard work.

I was not aware of Chan's involvement with those false teachers. I thought he was done with that when he pulled out of the megachurch scene. Someone mentioned the Catholic/Islam merger. For the world, this is a great deception. There is also a move by some Pentecostals for "dialogue" with Muslims. Australia's Brian Houston is involved with this. I am mystified. How can light have fellowship with darkness? It's tragic that the world can be so deceived, even more so when Christians are deceived also. Too many follow leaders without testing the spirits to see if they are of God. No one is infallible or beyond deception.

 

[Gideon300]

I'm sorry this kind of teaching made its way into the church---as so many others have over the centuries. There's a saying from one of Hitler's henchmen "If you tell a lie often enough, it becomes the truth."

Yes, that was Josef Goebbels, who prepared the way for Hitler's rise to power. Christians of all people should love and seek truth. Jesus is the truth. It's a sad reflection on the church that truth has so little value these days. It's now all about feelings and experiences.

 

[Roar]

I'm 71 and have been a part of several denominations. I personally allign as a Christian Zionist so find it rather difficult to find a "typical" church home. I was the only non-Jewish moderator for the Israel Military Forum while it was active on the internet. I have been an active part of some great Churches including a "Spirit Filled Christian Zionist Church" in Casper, Wyoming that ministered to Israel. I grew up as a Southern Baptist, even attended Ouachita Baptist University my freshman year in college, in Arkansas. Graduated Eastern New Mexico University. After the U.S. Army I was a youth pastor for an Assemblies of God church. I am not stuck on denominations as long as they preach the "Word of God" and not a watered down or new age version of it.

 

[Laura798]

Thanks Laura. Witness Lee was mentored by Watchman Nee. I don't know if it was a translation problem, but I too had problems with some of his concepts. I found the personality cult around him unsettling also. Having said that, I received great help and encouragement from Bill Freeman, who was greatly influenced by Nee and Lee. Bill did not promote either man as some kind of guru.

If you found Normal Christian Life helpful, you should read "The Life That Wins". It's most encouraging and practical as well. Some of Nee's stuff is as deep as the ocean and can be hard work.

I was not aware of Chan's involvement with those false teachers. I thought he was done with that when he pulled out of the megachurch scene. Someone mentioned the Catholic/Islam merger. For the world, this is a great deception. There is also a move by some Pentecostals for "dialogue" with Muslims. Australia's Brian Houston is involved with this. I am mystified. How can light have fellowship with darkness? It's tragic that the world can be so deceived, even more so when Christians are deceived also. Too many follow leaders without testing the spirits to see if they are of God. No one is infallible or beyond deception.

The bible says Satan "is the prince of this world". When we think that Noah and his descendants--they must have handed down the story of the flood--that the whole world was destroyed because of its wickedness--with only 8 surviving, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah--I've read accounts that it could have been as many as 500,000 people and only 3 made it out alive. I don't understand any of it either.

I wonder, if God is creating a new heaven and earth "where righteousness dwells" --then why all this suffering and evil? And some went to their graves peacefully, others may have renounced Christ in agony and fear for their families--those things trouble me. Sorry to veer of topic. In any case, I'll look up the book--thank you for the recommendation.

 

[Laura798]

Yes, that was Josef Goebbels, who prepared the way for Hitler's rise to power. Christians of all people should love and seek truth. Jesus is the truth. It's a sad reflection on the church that truth has so little value these days. It's now all about feelings and experiences.

You're right about that Gideon--and it's that way in most of our society too--on both sides. Mark Twain said, "A lie can travel half way around the world, while Truth is putting its shoes on."

 

[Marilyn]

...... Australia's Brian Houston is involved with this. I am mystified. How can light have fellowship with darkness? It's tragic that the world can be so deceived, even more so when Christians are deceived also. Too many follow leaders without testing the spirits to see if they are of God. No one is infallible or beyond deception.

Hi Gideon,

What I think is that they have swallowed the `Dominionism` lie. The belief that we can work together with `moral` people and help change this world. `Christians` are to get into the 7 `mountains` of society - Government, Business, education, Entertainment, Law, health, Sport, (something like that) and be the influence to change society. They obviously have turned away from where God says He is going to judge the nations.

 

[Edify]

Australia's Brian Houston is involved with this. I am mystified. How can light have fellowship with darkness?

It doesn't. Houston has been dark a long time, but nobody would believe it so they never followed up on him.
The same with Francis Chan. He looked the right part when he left the mega church, but his true colors began to show.
That's why we need to investigate TV preachers before we quote them or follow their teachings. Most are shams.
Be rest assured: If they're on TV, popular, rich, in the news for good things, especially when the world loves them, their true colors will eventually show.

 

[Grandpa]

I've had issues with every church I have ever gone to. I don't like it when they turn off all the lights except the spotlights on the band. It feels like most people are worshipping them instead of Christ. I like to be in the Light...

Then there are the many doctrinal errors that each denomination has.

I typically enjoy worship but find most of the sermons/teachings seriously lacking.

 

[Edify]

I've had issues with every church I have ever gone to. I don't like it when they turn off all the lights except the spotlights on the band. It feels like most people are worshipping them instead of Christ. I like to be in the Light...

Then there are the many doctrinal errors that each denomination has.

I typically enjoy worship but find most of the sermons/teachings seriously lacking.

I hear ya. It seem to me that when every older minister retires, he is replaced with a spiritual child with earthly dreams of making it big.

 

[oldman]

Exactly. My old church had community groups but they mostly ran as 1 hour eating, 1 hour doing a study. But it stopped there. No daily interaction. Or minimal as in a text.

A 2 hour meeting with no praise or worship?

 

[Roughsoul1991]

A 2 hour meeting with no praise or worship?

Not at these meetings. The worship took place only on Sunday at the Church.

 

[JohnDB]

House church is usually kinda "iffy" at best...it usually starts with the best of intentions but degenerates into watching the pregame NFL highlights pretty quickly or gets cancelled due to lack of participation. But as well there can be anything from snake handling to chandelier swinging (or even holy wife swapping) at some of the house churches...I've seen/heard of any number of wacky things going on.

However...
Panera Bread is still full on any given day absolutely full of small group bible studies.

For whatever reason bread, donuts, and bakeries are the international locations that small group bible studies tend to meet. Been this way around the world.... from Brazil to Pakistan and even Russia...the various bakeries are where Christians go to meet.

And I really wouldn't be able to explain why. I just know what is...

Then the independent coffee shops (anywhere but Starbucks) also seem to be gaining popularity for small group bible studies.

And I get it...
It is very difficult to find a church. There are so many various beliefs and how they live out their faith in worship it's mind boggling.
And so few are having Sunday School classes anymore...but Sunday School is my reason for going to any church...

I've missed Sunday School a LOT because of coronavirus...and when the wives of the various pastors are in your class... you gotta wait till the entire pandemic is over.... several of them are either getting over or getting re-infected now. *Sigh*

I get it...it's been so lonely in a way. I miss the guys and I know that my wife misses the ladies. Just another year and maybe we can get on the other side of this thing.

I'm a very gregarious person...where I'm not going to whine or cry (ok...so maybe a little bit in the corner by myself away from everyone else) I know that it's temporary and things will get better eventually.