How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church
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Note too, N6, that this poses a HUGE problem for God's plan of salvation.
"Had it been possible for the Father to permit sinful men (like Enoch or Elijah) to enter His presence in bodily form before Christ’s death and resurrection, then the Father would have had no need for Christ to die on the cross! If the Father possessed another way to resurrect sinful men before Christ’s resurrection, then He would have had no reason to sacrifice His Son to make resurrection possible. Clearly, Christ’s death and resurrection were the only way to reconcile men to the Father, which precludes any possibility that Enoch or Elijah could be resurrected before Christ’s death and resurrection."
https://www.versebyverseministry.org/bible-answers/where-did-god-take-elijah-and-when-did-it-happen
"Had it been possible for the Father to permit sinful men (like Enoch or Elijah) to enter His presence in bodily form before Christ’s death and resurrection, then the Father would have had no need for Christ to die on the cross! If the Father possessed another way to resurrect sinful men before Christ’s resurrection, then He would have had no reason to sacrifice His Son to make resurrection possible. Clearly, Christ’s death and resurrection were the only way to reconcile men to the Father, which precludes any possibility that Enoch or Elijah could be resurrected before Christ’s death and resurrection."
https://www.versebyverseministry.org/bible-answers/where-did-god-take-elijah-and-when-did-it-happen
After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb!”
11And all the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. And they fell facedown before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”
13Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”
14“Sir,” I answered, “you know.”
So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Couldn't be any more CLEAR
“Salvation to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb!”
11And all the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. And they fell facedown before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”
13Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”
14“Sir,” I answered, “you know.”
So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Couldn't be any more CLEAR
@Laura798 's Post #2060,
I'm not the only one to see it this way...
[from that post I linked]
[quoting Gaebelein - 2Chron21; taken from BibleHub]
"3. Decline and Apostasy under Jehoram, Ahaziah and Athaliah
CHAPTER 21 The Reign of Jehoram
[...]
"The writing which came to Jehoram from the prophet Elijah is interesting and presents some difficulties. Elijah had been translated a number of years before. To solve the difficulty some say that the name Elijah should be Elisha, who was then living and ministering in connection with Samaria. There is no need of doing this. It does not say that Elijah sent that writing, but it says:
“There came a writing from Elijah the prophet.” Elijah knew Jehoshaphat and he knew his son Jehoram, who was for several years the co-regent of his father. The Lord showed him beforehand the evil course Jehoram would take, and how he would follow the wicked ways of Ahab, Elijah knew so well. Then he received the message exposing the wickedness of Jehoram, “like to the whoredoms of Ahab,” and announcing the judgment to come upon Jehoram. This message was probably intrusted by Elijah to Elisha, and when the proper moment had come this man of God delivered the writing to Jehoram, telling him at the same time that it was from Elijah."
[end quoting Gaebelein]
_____________
(... and like I said, Paul refers to a similar thing FOLLOWING "our Rapture"...)
I'm not the only one to see it this way...
[from that post I linked]
[quoting Gaebelein - 2Chron21; taken from BibleHub]
"3. Decline and Apostasy under Jehoram, Ahaziah and Athaliah
CHAPTER 21 The Reign of Jehoram
[...]
"The writing which came to Jehoram from the prophet Elijah is interesting and presents some difficulties. Elijah had been translated a number of years before. To solve the difficulty some say that the name Elijah should be Elisha, who was then living and ministering in connection with Samaria. There is no need of doing this. It does not say that Elijah sent that writing, but it says:
“There came a writing from Elijah the prophet.” Elijah knew Jehoshaphat and he knew his son Jehoram, who was for several years the co-regent of his father. The Lord showed him beforehand the evil course Jehoram would take, and how he would follow the wicked ways of Ahab, Elijah knew so well. Then he received the message exposing the wickedness of Jehoram, “like to the whoredoms of Ahab,” and announcing the judgment to come upon Jehoram. This message was probably intrusted by Elijah to Elisha, and when the proper moment had come this man of God delivered the writing to Jehoram, telling him at the same time that it was from Elijah."
[end quoting Gaebelein]
_____________
(... and like I said, Paul refers to a similar thing FOLLOWING "our Rapture"...)
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GotQuestions also shows this same reasoning, where it starts with the words "Another possibility..." :
How did Elijah send a letter to King Jehoram, if Elijah had already been taken to heaven? | GotQuestions.org
[quoting from GotQuestions]
"Another possibility is that Elijah wrote the letter to Jehoram before his departure to heaven and left it for Elisha or someone else to deliver. Elijah was a prophet, after all. God could easily have given him the words to write ahead of time.
"Another possibility is that, before his translation to heaven, Elijah told Elisha what Jehoram would do and what God’s judgment would be. When the time came, Elisha wrote out Elijah’s prophecy and delivered it to King Jehoram."
[end quoting]
____________
Paul does the same kind of thing when he writes about things which will take place FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (our / the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY's Rapture)... example: 2Th2:10-12
How did Elijah send a letter to King Jehoram, if Elijah had already been taken to heaven? | GotQuestions.org
[quoting from GotQuestions]
"Another possibility is that Elijah wrote the letter to Jehoram before his departure to heaven and left it for Elisha or someone else to deliver. Elijah was a prophet, after all. God could easily have given him the words to write ahead of time.
"Another possibility is that, before his translation to heaven, Elijah told Elisha what Jehoram would do and what God’s judgment would be. When the time came, Elisha wrote out Elijah’s prophecy and delivered it to King Jehoram."
[end quoting]
____________
Paul does the same kind of thing when he writes about things which will take place FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (our / the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY's Rapture)... example: 2Th2:10-12
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Paul does the same kind of thing when he writes about things which will take place FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (our / the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY's Rapture)... one example: 2Th2:10-12 "...God shall SEND TO THEM great delusion, that THEY should BELIEVE the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI"
(where Paul is CONTRASTING, in these 2 chpts, the TWO distinct "beliefs" ppl WILL BE coming to IN / DURING THAT FUTURE TIME-PERIOD [aka the 7-yr trib--"the DOTL" chpt2 / "IN THAT DAY" chpt 1--same FUTURE time-period])
(where Paul is CONTRASTING, in these 2 chpts, the TWO distinct "beliefs" ppl WILL BE coming to IN / DURING THAT FUTURE TIME-PERIOD [aka the 7-yr trib--"the DOTL" chpt2 / "IN THAT DAY" chpt 1--same FUTURE time-period])
Dear DW, they are twisting what is said to fit their notion that Elijah went directly to heaven--however this poses serious problems, namely again that Jesus said "NO ONE has ascended to heaven. " Also please see my post about Salvation--namely that if a person could go to heaven directly, then there would be no reason for Christ to die.
Recall that they went out to look for him, thinking he was in the nearby local--they did not think the chariot had taken him to heaven. He was dropped off somewhere, but we don't know where--it was some distance as he writes the letter instead of seeing the king face to face.
Recall that they went out to look for him, thinking he was in the nearby local--they did not think the chariot had taken him to heaven. He was dropped off somewhere, but we don't know where--it was some distance as he writes the letter instead of seeing the king face to face.
This is not following the rapture = "adding to and taking away from God's words."
The "falling away" and the "man of sin" occur BEFORE the Coming Christ and our gathering together to Him.
The Apostle Paul said this TWICE = 2 Thess 2:1-4 and 1 Timothy 4:1
i warn you, by the Holy Spirit and the WORD of GOD - stop adding your words on top of God's words
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, 1 Timothy 4:1
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of - 2 Thess 2
Second WITNESS: the Apostle John - 1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
Third WITNESS: the LORD JESUS CHRIST - John 16:1 and Matt 24:10
"All this I have told you so that you will not fall away."
"At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,"
When you twist Scripture for your own desire, you become a false witness
Turn away from this sin, before you stand and are judged for it.
The "falling away" and the "man of sin" occur BEFORE the Coming Christ and our gathering together to Him.
The Apostle Paul said this TWICE = 2 Thess 2:1-4 and 1 Timothy 4:1
i warn you, by the Holy Spirit and the WORD of GOD - stop adding your words on top of God's words
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, 1 Timothy 4:1
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of - 2 Thess 2
Second WITNESS: the Apostle John - 1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
Third WITNESS: the LORD JESUS CHRIST - John 16:1 and Matt 24:10
"All this I have told you so that you will not fall away."
"At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,"
When you twist Scripture for your own desire, you become a false witness
Turn away from this sin, before you stand and are judged for it.
Agreed! 
["pre-tribbers" (like myself) are not saying "Christians / believers / saints [i.e. members of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"]" won't be aware of the "IN SHOUT"... the "IN VOICE OF ARCHANGEL"... "IN TRUMPET OF GOD" at the time we're caught up! - https://biblehub.com/text/1_thessalonians/4-16.htm ;
But for the "great delusion" which He "shall SEND" which takes place FOLLOWING "our Rapture," to come into play and have its effects, I see these items (I underlined) as being heard and understood ONLY by the believers (being "raptured")]
["pre-tribbers" (like myself) are not saying "Christians / believers / saints [i.e. members of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"]" won't be aware of the "IN SHOUT"... the "IN VOICE OF ARCHANGEL"... "IN TRUMPET OF GOD" at the time we're caught up! - https://biblehub.com/text/1_thessalonians/4-16.htm ;
But for the "great delusion" which He "shall SEND" which takes place FOLLOWING "our Rapture," to come into play and have its effects, I see these items (I underlined) as being heard and understood ONLY by the believers (being "raptured")]
Paul wrote the above verse toward the end of his life and ministry... and I have NEVER stated that THIS ^ is what takes place after our Rapture. No.
But note, "DEPART [VERB] from THE faith" (where "THE faith" refers to "that body of truth" recorded in Scripture following His "death / resurrection / ascension / exaltation")... does not mean the person's or persons' own "faith / trust / belief" (as though they've "ceased believing" or something. NO. Not what this text refers to.)
Consider what that ^ means, then.
The time period referred to in the immediately preceding verse (v.2 "the DOTL" time period of JUDGMENTS UNFOLDING) will not be present "unless shall have come THE DEPARTURE [NOUN--like v.1's NOUN] *FIRST*..." (note: ONE THING *FIRST*... not TWO THINGS *FIRST*).
This passage explains itself... when one grasps WHAT "the DOTL" is and when [and IN WHAT MANNER] Paul had stated it "ARRIVES" (1Th5:1-3), because JESUS HIMSELF had already SPOKEN on that VERY ISSUE in His Olivet Discourse, and He did NOT say those "birth PANGS" ARRIVE at the END of the Trib as several of you mistakenly believe to be the case.
Consider also that Paul had NOT YET referred to what he later did in 1Tim4:1... but in nearly EVERY CHAPTER of his letters to the Thessalonians he refers in some way or other (in VARIOUS terms and phrases) TO OUR RAPTURE EVENT!
(the primary Subject he's covering in these two letters is an "eschatological salvation")
But note, "DEPART [VERB] from THE faith" (where "THE faith" refers to "that body of truth" recorded in Scripture following His "death / resurrection / ascension / exaltation")... does not mean the person's or persons' own "faith / trust / belief" (as though they've "ceased believing" or something. NO. Not what this text refers to.)
Consider what that ^ means, then.
The time period referred to in the immediately preceding verse (v.2 "the DOTL" time period of JUDGMENTS UNFOLDING) will not be present "unless shall have come THE DEPARTURE [NOUN--like v.1's NOUN] *FIRST*..." (note: ONE THING *FIRST*... not TWO THINGS *FIRST*).
This passage explains itself... when one grasps WHAT "the DOTL" is and when [and IN WHAT MANNER] Paul had stated it "ARRIVES" (1Th5:1-3), because JESUS HIMSELF had already SPOKEN on that VERY ISSUE in His Olivet Discourse, and He did NOT say those "birth PANGS" ARRIVE at the END of the Trib as several of you mistakenly believe to be the case.
Consider also that Paul had NOT YET referred to what he later did in 1Tim4:1... but in nearly EVERY CHAPTER of his letters to the Thessalonians he refers in some way or other (in VARIOUS terms and phrases) TO OUR RAPTURE EVENT!
(the primary Subject he's covering in these two letters is an "eschatological salvation")
Agreed!
["pre-tribbers" (like myself) are not saying "Christians / believers / saints [i.e. members of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"]" won't be aware of the "IN SHOUT"... the "IN VOICE OF ARCHANGEL"... "IN TRUMPET OF GOD" at the time we're caught up! - https://biblehub.com/text/1_thessalonians/4-16.htm ;
But for the "great delusion" which He "shall SEND" which takes place FOLLOWING "our Rapture," to come into play and have its effects, I see these items (I underlined) as being heard and understood ONLY by the believers (being "raptured")]
["pre-tribbers" (like myself) are not saying "Christians / believers / saints [i.e. members of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"]" won't be aware of the "IN SHOUT"... the "IN VOICE OF ARCHANGEL"... "IN TRUMPET OF GOD" at the time we're caught up! - https://biblehub.com/text/1_thessalonians/4-16.htm ;
But for the "great delusion" which He "shall SEND" which takes place FOLLOWING "our Rapture," to come into play and have its effects, I see these items (I underlined) as being heard and understood ONLY by the believers (being "raptured")]
I have difficulty understanding how the symbols in Revelation can be taken literally. The millenial reign can't happen after Christ returns as there will be no more opporutnity for repentance--it is appointed for man once to die and then the judgemnt--AlL will be raised at his return--those to everlasting life those to everlasting destruction.
Symbolism of the Number 1000
The number one thousand (1,000) symbolizes “immensity,” “fullness of quantity” or “multitude.” The number evokes a very long time according to most Bible passages. It is often used in scripture to specify an indefinite quantity. Many early Church fathers saw in the number 1,000, “the totality of the generations and the perfection of the life.” The number sometimes is used in a reference to paradise and everlasting happiness.
Christ is ruling and reigning now. He is our King and we spiritually are ruling and reigning with him NOW. On his return he hands over the kingdom to God--how can he hand over the kingdom if he is not now currently reigning?
"
The Order of Resurrection
…23But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him. 24Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.…"--1st Corinithians 23-25
Hi again!
You repeat, ill repeat:
1Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Thess 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
1Thess 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
Num 23:19 God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Couldn't be any more CLEAR....
And I will ask you.....
Do you believe The Father would let His Son's "body" go thorough a
"Great Tribulation", again ?
Yea or nay?
God Bless!
You repeat, ill repeat:
1Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Thess 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
1Thess 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
Num 23:19 God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Couldn't be any more CLEAR....
And I will ask you.....
Do you believe The Father would let His Son's "body" go thorough a
"Great Tribulation", again ?
Yea or nay?
God Bless!
@Laura798 's Post #2077,
I addressed that ("1000 years") in some measure in my Post #1512 of this thread:
https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4671085
...and that doesn't even consider what I'd already put about the SEQUENCE (which AGREES with Rev19-20) found in the TWO "PUNISH" words (separated BY "TIME") in Isaiah 24:21-22[23] ... (among other passages)...
I addressed that ("1000 years") in some measure in my Post #1512 of this thread:
https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4671085
...and that doesn't even consider what I'd already put about the SEQUENCE (which AGREES with Rev19-20) found in the TWO "PUNISH" words (separated BY "TIME") in Isaiah 24:21-22[23] ... (among other passages)...
Paul wrote the above verse toward the end of his life and ministry... and I have NEVER stated that THIS ^ is what takes place after our Rapture. No.
But note, "DEPART [VERB] from THE faith" (where "THE faith" refers to "that body of truth" recorded in Scripture following His "death / resurrection / ascension / exaltation")... does not mean the person's or persons' own "faith / trust / belief" (as though they've "ceased believing" or something. NO. Not what this text refers to.)
Consider what that ^ means, then.
The time period referred to in the immediately preceding verse (v.2 "the DOTL" time period of JUDGMENTS UNFOLDING) will not be present "unless shall have come THE DEPARTURE [NOUN--like v.1's NOUN] *FIRST*..." (note: ONE THING *FIRST*... not TWO THINGS *FIRST*).
This passage explains itself... when one grasps WHAT "the DOTL" is and when [and IN WHAT MANNER] Paul had stated it "ARRIVES" (1Th5:1-3), because JESUS HIMSELF had already SPOKEN on that VERY ISSUE in His Olivet Discourse, and He did NOT say those "birth PANGS" ARRIVE at the END of the Trib as several of you mistakenly believe to be the case.
But note, "DEPART [VERB] from THE faith" (where "THE faith" refers to "that body of truth" recorded in Scripture following His "death / resurrection / ascension / exaltation")... does not mean the person's or persons' own "faith / trust / belief" (as though they've "ceased believing" or something. NO. Not what this text refers to.)
Consider what that ^ means, then.
The time period referred to in the immediately preceding verse (v.2 "the DOTL" time period of JUDGMENTS UNFOLDING) will not be present "unless shall have come THE DEPARTURE [NOUN--like v.1's NOUN] *FIRST*..." (note: ONE THING *FIRST*... not TWO THINGS *FIRST*).
This passage explains itself... when one grasps WHAT "the DOTL" is and when [and IN WHAT MANNER] Paul had stated it "ARRIVES" (1Th5:1-3), because JESUS HIMSELF had already SPOKEN on that VERY ISSUE in His Olivet Discourse, and He did NOT say those "birth PANGS" ARRIVE at the END of the Trib as several of you mistakenly believe to be the case.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 and 1 Timothy 4:1 and 1 John 2:18 and Matthew 24:10 all speak of the SAME and bare WITNESS against you.
If you wish to continue as such you will reap what you have sown.
i and others have born witness to the Truth which you changed for your desire.
Let it be known you have been warned and prayed for, that you may recover from this error.
It is to your advantage you to no longer go down this path of placing your words on top of God's words,
as you proclaim that 2 Thessaolians 2 = "the falling away" is the rapture.
The LORD JESUS CHRIST and the Apostle Paul and the Apostle John correct your error.