How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

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TheDivineWatermark

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DavidTree said:
TRUST the Word of God and not the words of religious 'learned' men.
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Says the man who I constantly see saying the very things that come straight out of the writings [and videos] of the "anti-pre-tribber" talking points.


READ all of God's words about the Two Israels
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Well, for one thing, ALL 73 occurrences of "Israel" in the NT ALL *mean* "Israel"

(whether speaking of those of the faith or speaking of those not of the faith... that being the only distinction).




IOW, Romans 2:29 "But he is a Jew, which IS ONE inwardly" is NOT saying that "Gentiles BECOME Jews" once they've come to faith in Christ. (I see this verse constantly used in order to try to make the point you are also attempting to make!)




And the other verses (which are used by "Covenant Theologians" to suggest such a thing as you are suggesting), also are referring TO "ISRAEL" (i.e. those of Israel who BELIEVED [or will BELIEVE])... Not that "Gentiles" BECOME "Israel" (or the "NEW Israel") when they come to faith in Christ. NO!:

--Gal6:16,

--Rom9:6,

--Rom11:26,

--and Eph2:12...


See the following LINK (and its "chart" to see this spelled out):

The Israel of God, the term "Israel" in the New Testament (middletownbiblechurch.org) - "How is the Term Israel Used in the New Testament?"








[unless you want to continue clinging to your mistaken, tho oft-repeated, false notion regarding this Subject... :confused: ]
 
DavidTree

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TheDivineWatermark said:
Says the man who I constantly see saying the very things that come straight out of the writings [and videos] of the "anti-pre-tribber" talking points.




Well, for one thing, ALL 73 occurrences of "Israel" in the NT ALL *mean* "Israel"

(whether speaking of those of the faith or speaking of those not of the faith... that being the only distinction).




IOW, Romans 2:29 "But he is a Jew, which IS ONE inwardly" is NOT saying that "Gentiles BECOME Jews" once they've come to faith in Christ.




And the other verses (which are used by "Covenant Theologians" to suggest such a thing as you are suggesting), also are referring TO "ISRAEL" (i.e. those of Israel who BELIEVED [or will BELIEVE])... Not that "Gentiles" BECOME "Israel" (or the "NEW Israel") when they come to faith in Christ. NO!:

--Gal6:16,

--Rom9:6,

--Rom11:26,

--and Eph2:12...


See the following LINK (and its "chart" to see this spelled out):

The Israel of God, the term "Israel" in the New Testament (middletownbiblechurch.org) - "How is the Term Israel Used in the New Testament?"








[unless you want to continue clinging to your mistaken, tho oft-repeated, false notion regarding this Subject... :confused: ]
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God is The anti pre-tribber - He hates it and says so in His word = Deaut 4:1-2, Proverbs 30:5-6 and Revelation 22:18-19

Read James ch5 and memorize it and keep meditating on it until the Light goes on inside you.
 
Laura798

Laura798

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TheDivineWatermark said:
Just to note: the word "rise" and the word "caught up" are referencing two distinct things: one refers to the dead in Christ being "resurrected" from the dead / from their graves... the other refers to the "SNATCH-action" that relocates both components of the "One Body" (both the "dead IN Christ" who are now "resurrected" from the dead, bodily, AND the "we which are alive" component)



So, Jn3:13 no one "has ascended" ("perfect indicative active")... are you suggesting that no one ever will, even though Rev11:12 says of the "2W" (after being told "COME UP [G305] HERE")... "and they ascended/went up [G305] into heaven" ? Or are you among those saying then that the "2W" cannot be humans?
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Dear DW,

Of course not--both the dead and those still alive will RISE. But NOT until Christ's Second Coming.

"So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him."--Hebrews 9:28 (note too that the door has closed on salvation)

We must always test scripture against scripture--from Genesis to Revelation it is not pieces but one large tapestry. If Jesus said it, we Christians should believe it. To believe that someone goes directly to heaven is not in scripture--yes some people isolate verses and say "see it says xyz"....but that is were false teachings arise--in the isolation of verses.

"No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man."--John 3"13

Protestants still have vestiges from the Roman Catholic Church, who in turn got this myth from the pagans--that man has an immortal soul when the bible repeatedly says he is MORTAL. There is no point in Christ coming again and no point in the judgment if believers go directly to heaven--to say there is no judgment of ALL men, is to deny the continuous running theme throughout scripture. Only God is immortal and we will receive this gift only and until the SECOND coming of Christ--and ONLY believers receive the gift of eternal life.

There are numerous verses that say we sleep the sleep of death until Christ's second coming when the dead RISE--they do not come down from heaven.

Thessalonians chapter 4: “For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel's call and with the sound of God's trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

"It is appointed once for man to die once and then the judgment"

"Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope."--1 Thess 4:13

“Brothers, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day."-- Acts 2:29
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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Laura798 said:
Of course not--both the dead and those still alive will RISE.
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Where the text states "the dead in Christ SHALL RISE FIRST," it is referencing ONLY "the DEAD in Christ"... (those who "sleep through Jesus" i.e. have physically DIED);

... and refers to their being "RESURRECTED" first... before the next thing ['Then'] slated to occur: being "CAUGHT UP / SNATCH / RAPTURE [G726]" (for both components "TOGETHER/AT THE SAME TIME"--"the DEAD in Christ" component AND the "we which are ALIVE" component... caught up / SNATCHED at the SAME TIME)




Conflating these two DISTINCT things portrays an incorrect picture of how it's actually said to take place...
 
Laura798

Laura798

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TheDivineWatermark said:
Where the text states "the dead in Christ SHALL RISE FIRST," it is referencing ONLY "the DEAD in Christ"... (those who "sleep through Jesus" i.e. have physically DIED);

... and refers to their being "RESURRECTED" first... before the next thing ['Then'] slated to occur: being "CAUGHT UP / SNATCH / RAPTURE [G726]"
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i'm sorry, but i don't follow you--this is quite convoluted--I find when people have to explain Scripture when it's abundantly clear, they are actually trying to force their doctrine on to the text --these verses stand on their own.
 
Laura798

Laura798

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Laura798 said:
i'm sorry, but i don't follow you--this is quite convoluted--I find when people have to explain Scripture when it's abundantly clear, they are actually trying to force their doctrine on to the text --these verses stand on their own.
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The dead IN CHRIST--of course means believers!
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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@Laura798 ,

"shall RISE first" is NOT saying "shall RISE INTO THE AIR / IN THE CLOUDS" first (as tho they'll arrive there at that location moments before the other component arrives there. NO!)



"caught up [verb] together [adverb; G260] with"... The ADVERB must be attached to the VERB... it is the "caught up / snatch-action [verb]" that occurs "AT THE SAME TIME [G260; adverb; 'TOGETHER']"



The dead IN CHRIST--of course means believers!
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No one is arguing anything to do with that fact.




The thing I am pointing out pertains to the SEQUENCE of events laid out in that text, and the verb "caught up / snatch" being attached to the adverb "TOGETHER [G260]"... and meaning both components will be caught up at the SAME TIME.

Where the text states "the dead in Christ SHALL RISE FIRST," that speaks of their being "resurrected" FROM THE DEAD (NOT their being "CAUGHT UP first" see)
 
Laura798

Laura798

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TheDivineWatermark said:
@Laura798 ,

"shall RISE first" is NOT saying "shall RISE INTO THE AIR / IN THE CLOUDS" first (as tho they'll arrive there at that location moments before the other component arrives there. NO!)



"caught up [verb] together [adverb; G260] with"... The ADVERB must be attached to the VERB... it is the "caught up / snatch-action [verb]" that occurs "AT THE SAME TIME [G260; adverb; 'TOGETHER']"





No one is arguing anything to do with that fact.




The thing I am pointing out pertains to the SEQUENCE of events laid out in that text, and the verb "caught up / snatch" being attached to the adverb "TOGETHER [G260]"... and meaning both components will be caught up at the SAME TIME.

Where the text states "the dead in Christ SHALL RISE FIRST," that speaks of their being "resurrected" FROM THE DEAD (NOT their being "CAUGHT UP first" see)
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When we rise, we rise into ETERNITY. Time ceases to exist. At the moment, yes we are in time. There's no need to describe in your own words the sequence of events--it's perfectly clear: "The dead in Christ rise first, and then we who are alive meet them in the air--at that point we are in eternity, no longer in time--I'm sorry, but I don't get your point at all.
 
DavidTree

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stilllearning said:
This is why my post is formed as a question because sometimes not sure what you are saying so I form my reply as a question so you can then say no that is not what I am saying. At times I have just said not sure I am tracking can you explain or expound. At times like such I question as I have to just make sure I am hearing what you are actually saying. So you are saying that is not the point you were making, so I take you at face value and will re-read to see how I missed what you were trying to really convey.
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The Whole (Complete) Counsel of God is from Genesis thru Revelation.

1.) The Path we are to take can be summed up in Psalm 33

2.) The Eternal Commandment is found in Deut 4:1-2, Proverbs 30: 5-6 , Revelation 22:18-19

3.) The KEYS to the Kingdom can be found in the Gospel of John and Certified in Acts

Seek ye first the Kingdom of Heaven................

Ignore the vain teachings of man that pose as if they are from God with clever oration and much talk.

1 Corinthians ch1 - 2 Peter ch1 - 1 Corinthians ch2

Stay away from anyone who does not hold fast to these things.
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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Where it states "TO the meeting [noun] OF THE LORD in the air"... that is saying where the destination location for both components (together / at the same time [G260]) are being caught up / snatched TO.

"The Lord" is who will be "in the air" (having "descended" to that place)... and we (the "ONE BODY" [both components of this text--the dead in Christ AND the we which are alive...] TOGETHER will be "caught up / snatched" TO THAT LOCATION).




IOW, the text does NOT state "TO MEET [verb] them [the dead in Christ having already been CAUGHT UP *first*"... NO!]"
 
Laura798

Laura798

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TheDivineWatermark said:
Where it states "TO the meeting [noun] OF THE LORD in the air"... that is saying where the destination location for both components (together / at the same time [G260]) are being caught up / snatched TO.

"The Lord" is who will be "in the air" (having "descended" to that place)... and we (the "ONE BODY" [both components of this text--the dead in Christ AND the we which are alive...] TOGETHER will be "caught up / snatched" TO THAT LOCATION).



IOW, the text does NOT state "TO MEET them [the dead in Christ having been CAUGHT UP *first*"... NO!]"
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Your explanations aren't necessary--it makes what is clear confusing. Again, let the text stand on it's own--there is no mystery here--this is not prophecy with some hidden meaning. It's as clear as "See Spot run."
 
Laura798

Laura798

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Laura798 said:
Your explanations aren't necessary--it makes what is clear confusing. Again, let the text stand on it's own--there is no mystery here--this is not prophecy with some hidden meaning. It's as clear as "See Spot run."
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And what's odd is, I've simply quoted scripture....:unsure:
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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^ Nope, you wrote "[to] meet them in the air"... the TEXT itself does not state this, as you suggest it does. [your Post #2008]




Also, the text states, "the dead in Christ SHALL RISE first"... it does not state "shall be CAUGHT UP first" as you've suggested it states. [your Post #2003]
 
Laura798

Laura798

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TheDivineWatermark said:
^ Nope, you wrote "[to] meet them in the air"... the TEXT itself does not state this, as you suggest it does. [your Post #2008]




Also, the text states, "the dead in Christ SHALL RISE first"... it does not state "shall be CAUGHT UP first" as you've suggested it states. [your Post #2003]
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The Return of the Lord
13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death,c so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.
15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
18Therefore encourage one another with these words.
 
Laura798

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Laura798 said:
I can't imagine what your point is--the dead rise and those alive meet them in the air--it's as if your putting some imaginary space of time between the two--one immediately follows the other. It's clear as the text CLEARLY says "will be caught up TOGETHER WITH THEM.


The Return of the Lord
13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death,c so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.
15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
18Therefore encourage one another with these words.
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TheDivineWatermark

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[I think I was referring to a different numbered post ^ ]



Anyway, re: your Post #2003... no, it's not both who "RISE first" (which is speaking to their "resurrection" from the dead... bodily)... both components do not require this (some will be "still-alive," right?!)



Also, the phrase "the dead in Christ SHALL RISE first" is speaking TO THAT ('resurrection" bodily)... NOT to their being "CAUGHT UP first" (for them to be arriving "in the air" before the other component arrives there)
 
ewq1938

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Runningman said:
I'll just leave this here.

Revelation 13:7-9
7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9If any man have an ear, let him hear.
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And this because candlesticks are churches and a church is made up of Christians....that's church solidly in the great tribulation:

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
 
ewq1938

ewq1938

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TheDivineWatermark said:
--whereas "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" is made up ONLY OF believers (ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]")
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This is wrong. The church made up of many churches. The church, all of it and every member, will be present during the great tribulation according to scripture in various parts of Revelation and the Olivet discourse.
 
Lucy-Pevensie

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ewq1938 said:
And this because candlesticks are churches and a church is made up of Christians....that's church solidly in the great tribulation:

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
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The book even closes with......
22:16 “ I, Jesus have sent my angel to bear witness to you about these things for the churches.

It's all written to the church for the church. It makes no sense if the church are not going to be
there to witness those things he tells us about.
 
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