How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[Lucy-Pevensie]

I'm just curious--after all this back and forth between the post-tribbers and pre-tribbers--has anyone changed sides or had any epiphanies? if so I'd love to hear! It's funny that we all believe we are right and it's become a battle amongst Christians--the North and South of Christian chat. I imagine, there are spectators here--"Karen get the popcorn--Dissenter 2 and Hobgoblin 5 are going at it again!"

There have been about 8 threads concerning pretrib "rapture" in the las couple of months.
I still haven't seen one convincing verse to prove the theory.

I hoped this one might be a bit different because it was meant to be about how the Pretrib became popular.
Sadly, it has ended up the same as all the others. Flame wars.

 

[ewq1938]

Until the rapture of course....

Not according to the bible which shows the church being persecuted in the great tribulation.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

satan says: "did God really say he will leave no one behind, let me show you where He does this(misinterpret) Matt 25:1-13

Recall, I am not one who says this Matthew 25:1-13 passage is a "SNATCH / RAPTURE / CAUGHT UP [G726]" passage...

... nor related to "THE MARRIAGE" itself (pertaining to "the BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]"... NO! NO "BRIDE" is being talked about IN THIS PASSAGE)...

Rather, it pertains to "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" (FIVE wise "VIRGINS [PLURAL]" will ENTER the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age, aka "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER")...

NO "SNATCH-action" [G726] occurs in association with THAT (Matt25:1-13,10 "with [G3326 - accompanying] Him into the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" aka the earthly MK [NOT "G4862 - UNIONed-with" used OF US / the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY]).






He is not coming to "MARRY" FIVE VIRGINS [PLURAL] (nor to "MARRY" the "GUESTS [PLURAL]" in another passage speaking of the same time-slot--His Second Coming to the earth)

 

[DavidTree]

Note that in Revelation 19:14, where it says, "And the ARMIES which were in heaven [/of heaven] followed Him upon white horses..." (aside from what they are said to be wearing)...

... the Greek word for "ARMIES [G4753; plural here]" is never used in the PLURAL when speaking of the "angels" (alone).

Friend, i never give the RedX except in very clear error from someone who should of known Better.

Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus, and arrested Him. At this, one of Jesus’ companions drew his sword and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.
“Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him. “For all who draw the sword will die by the sword.
Are you not aware that I can call on My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?
But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen this way?”

When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, Matthew 25:31

Then Jesus told His disciples, “If anyone wants to come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. What will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?
For the Son of Man will come in His Father’s glory with His angels,
and then He will repay each one according to what he has done.
Matthew 16

If you make a correcting post, i will joyfully remove the Red X, as i really dislike using it - you know better or at least should.

 

[Laura798]

YES, great question - i actually have experienced a few "epiphanies" while testing their words against Scripture.

Note that in Revelation 19:14, where it says, "And the ARMIES which were in heaven [/of heaven] followed Him upon white horses..." (aside from what they are said to be wearing)...

... the Greek word for "ARMIES [G4753; plural here]" is never used in the PLURAL when speaking of the "angels" (alone).

Numerous verses site that angels will be accompanying our Lord at his Second Coming--I've discovered just now that Clouds also means Princes--there is one verse in revelation that says WITH the clouds--not ON the clouds. These clouds are the multitude of angels.

Note that in Revelation 19:14, where it says, "And the ARMIES which were in heaven [/of heaven] followed Him upon white horses..." (aside from what they are said to be wearing)...

... the Greek word for "ARMIES [G4753; plural here]" is never used in the PLURAL when speaking of the "angels" (alone).

Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

"with the clouds"--note he is not ON the clouds--these clouds are the 'princes' or angels. In Hebrew the word cloud also means princes:

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen" --Rev. 1:7

From the book of Daniel (angels called 'princes') "“the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I was left there with the kings of Persia”

"And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”--Acts 1:11

Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Accompanying-The-Second-Coming

Coming with Angels: (note there are different terms used for angels. Saints and Holy Ones are both angels (Saints translates to Holy Ones in Hebrew)

Matthew 16:27
"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds."

Matthew 25:31
“But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne."


For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

2 Thessalonians 1:7
and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,

 

[DavidTree]

Numerous verses site that angels will be accompanying our Lord at his Second Coming--I've discovered just now that Clouds also means Princes--there is one verse in revelation that says WITH the clouds--not ON the clouds. These clouds are the multitude of angels.


Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

"with the clouds"--note he is not ON the clouds--these clouds are the 'princes' or angels. In Hebrew the word cloud also means princes:

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen" --Rev. 1:7

From the book of Daniel (angels called 'princes') "“the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I was left there with the kings of Persia”

"And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”--Acts 1:11

Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Accompanying-The-Second-Coming

Coming with Angels: (note there are different terms used for angels. Saints and Holy Ones are both angels (Saints translates to Holy Ones in Hebrew)

Matthew 16:27
"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds."

Matthew 25:31
“But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne."


For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

2 Thessalonians 1:7
and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,

See Post #1804

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@Laura798 , I'm in no way denying that the "angels" will be AMONG those "ARMIES [PLURAL]" accompanying Him upon His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19;


I'm just pointing out that the word "ARMIES [PLURAL; G4753]" (v.14) is NEVER USED in the PLURAL when speaking of the "angels" only.
(When scripture speaks of them / the angels, it always uses this word [G4753] IN THE SINGULAR).



So... in view of this... I believe He's not being accompanied ONLY by the "angels" (alone) in this Rev19 context.

 

[DavidTree]

@Laura798 , I'm in no way denying that the "angels" will be AMONG those "ARMIES [PLURAL]" accompanying Him upon His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19;


I'm just pointing out that the word "ARMIES [PLURAL; G4753]" (v.14) is NEVER USED in the PLURAL when speaking of the "angels" only.
(When scripture speaks of them / the angels, it always uses this word [G4753] IN THE SINGULAR).



So... in view of this... I believe He's not being accompanied ONLY by the "angels" (alone) in this Rev19 context.

RIGHT - "you believe" -

Change your persepective from earth towards Heaven - rely only on Sola Scriptura and HS7

Never think that i am against you or CV5 or others - God is for us - He is not against us.
Read and Pray John 17

 

[Laura798]

@Laura798 , I'm in no way denying that the "angels" will be AMONG those "ARMIES [PLURAL]" accompanying Him upon His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19;


I'm just pointing out that the word "ARMIES [PLURAL; G4753]" (v.14) is NEVER USED in the PLURAL when speaking of the "angels" only.
(When scripture speaks of them / the angels, it always uses this word [G4753] IN THE SINGULAR).



So... in view of this... I believe He's not being accompanied ONLY by the "angels" (alone) in this Rev19 context.

I'm not sure what you mean. Here Christ's says he has 12 legions (terminology used for soldiers) that can do battle for him:

Matthew 26:53
Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

Revelation 19:19
And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/The-Armies-Of-Heaven

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

RIGHT - "you believe" -

Right. I "believe" what Scripture says.


Scripture itself NEVER uses the PLURAL of that G4753 word when it is speaking of the ANGELS.


You hadn't 1) had quite enough time to SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES to see whether this be SO, b/f you dealt out that "Red X" (to my pointing this fact out); 2) you failed to provide ANT PROOF WHATSOEVER that what I presented about that word was untrue.




Therefore, I am persuaded to go with SCRIPTURE, and not with what YOU say.

Change your persepective from earth towards Heaven - rely only on Sola Scriptura and HS7

Never think that i am against you or CV5 or others - God is for us - He is not against us.
Read and Pray John 17

 

[Laura798]

See Post #1804

Gottcha--there are so many posts here--I didn't realize they were actually numbered!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I'm not sure what you mean. Here Christ's says he has 12 legions (terminology used for soldiers) that can do battle for him:

Matthew 26:53
Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

Revelation 19:19
And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/The-Armies-Of-Heaven

I was referring SPECIFICALLY to the word used in Rev19:14 "G4753" (translated as "ARMIES [PLURAL]")... That word is ALWAYS used IN THE SINGULAR when referencing the "angels" (alone)

 

[Laura798]

I was referring SPECIFICALLY to the word used in Rev19:14 "G4753" (translated as "ARMIES [PLURAL]")

I'm sorry if I missed something in this very long thread--I guess I don't understand quite--there are a number of different kinds of angels in the bible, so I assume there will be all sorts of them making up the army--that part is a mystery. Armies, plural. Angels, plural.

 

[cv5]

No signs and no warnings? Hmm? I think most people consider a SHOUT and a LOUD Trumpet blast a warning. And the bible says "THE WHOLE WORLD WILL SEE HIS COMING. " He's also NOT going to be alone--he is coming with "Thousands upon thousands of his HOLY ONES (angels).

Thanks for pointing out your thorny dilemma lol....

 

[Laura798]

@Laura798 , I'm in no way denying that the "angels" will be AMONG those "ARMIES [PLURAL]" accompanying Him upon His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19;


I'm just pointing out that the word "ARMIES [PLURAL; G4753]" (v.14) is NEVER USED in the PLURAL when speaking of the "angels" only.
(When scripture speaks of them / the angels, it always uses this word [G4753] IN THE SINGULAR).



So... in view of this... I believe He's not being accompanied ONLY by the "angels" (alone) in this Rev19 context.

Oh I see...but who else do you think will accompany Christ? I don't see any verses that say any one else will be joining him with exception of the angels (Other words used for angels: Holy Ones/Saints/Armies/Princes/Clouds)

 

[ewq1938]

I was referring SPECIFICALLY to the word used in Rev19:14 "G4753" (translated as "ARMIES [PLURAL]")... That word is ALWAYS used IN THE SINGULAR when referencing the "angels" (alone)

The word simply means troops, of whatever kind. It does not specific what kind of troops form army/armies.

The beast will have mainly human troops although satan did bring fallen angels with him so they could be part of army as well.
Christ's army will be composed of angels, the former dead and the raptured saints.

 

[Laura798]

Thanks for pointing out your thorny dilemma lol....

Well, I'm sorry you see it as a dilemma--I find it quite clear--Christ's Second Coming is both NOiSY and NOTiCEABLE.

Christ came once to die and is coming again for the believers. 1+1 = 2 , not 3

Lots of bad stuff will happen before he comes. Christ and the apostles said to tell you, "Don't say we didn't warn you."

Matthew 24 Jesus warns the disciples--who put it ALL down in writing so there would be no misunderstanding--or so they thought...

4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

 

[Laura798]

The word simply means troops, of whatever kind. It does not specific what kind of troops form army/armies.

The beast will have mainly human troops although satan did bring fallen angels with him so they could be part of army as well.
Christ's army will be composed of angels, the former dead and the raptured saints.

Hmm. Sorry, I've never heard that before. Where is that verse?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Friend, i never give the RedX except in very clear error from someone who should of known Better.
[...]
If you make a correcting post, i will joyfully remove the Red X, as i really dislike using it - you know better or at least should.

I gather (from your post [quoted only in part, above]) that YOU see the concept of "SNATCH / CAUGHT UP / HARPAZO / RAPTURE [G726]" somewhere in the context of Revelation 19 or 20 (His Second Coming to the earth time-slot)... as evidence for your viewpoint that it happens at that time-slot. I'm not seeing it... anywhere there.

 

[ewq1938]

Hmm. Sorry, I've never heard that before. Where is that verse?

What I said comes from many verses. What did you want verses for exactly? Which army?