It appears this thread has been totally hijacked! The subject is "unconditional election". How come no one is addressing it?
Doctrine of Unconditional Election
- Thread starter brightfame52
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Faith is work
I really don't feel like debating this with you but I cant let your post stand as-is.
For faith, in God's eyes, to truly be faith, it must have works too, otherwise, it is dead. And dead faith is not faith.
Christ is the only one to manifest both true faith AND perfect works making His faith the one and only true faith.
Should we claim faith as of our own doing, then it had better have both perfect faith AND perfect works in order to
satisfy God's demand - which would be an impossibility -- or we are under His wrath : wrath of the works of law.
Further, if man's faith could bring righteousness, (were that even possible which it isn't), any faith a man might muster,
because it is from man, would be an imperfect faith, and therefore, not worthy nor capable of producing perfect righteousness. Perfect righteousness can only be found in/from perfect faith, not imperfect faith. Faith and righteousness have become
one through Christ.
There is much more I could say about this topic, but I'll let it go for now at this point.
[Jas 2:20, 26 KJV]
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? ...
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
[Rev 2:13 KJV]
13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
It's true. What they're defending is commonly referred to as, "Easy Believerism".
Believe, that's it. God won't call you to serve His kingdom on earth.
God won't ask you to represent His truth.
All you have to do to enjoy eternal life is, hold faith. That's it.
That's not it. That's not scripture. God predestined whom he would Save before the foundation of the world.
"And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."
Romans 8:28
Colossians 1
And then he calls those whom He Saved to serve His will.
As we know in both Testaments.
Acts 13:2 While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”
Jeremiah 1:5
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
And before you were born I consecrated you;
I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
Genesis 12:1-3
Now the Lord said to Abram,
“Go forth from your country,
And from your relatives
And from your father’s house,
To the land which I will show you;
And I will make you a great nation,
And I will bless you,
And make your name great;
And so you shall be a blessing;
And I will bless those who bless you,
And the one who curses you I will curse.
And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.”
Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Calling,-Of-Individuals
argue against Scripture all you want
Romans 4:
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
...
20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
You are the only one who makes this claim.rogerg said:
Read Hebrews 11. The results of faith are exhibited in the lives of those who obtained good report just as the results of unbelief are exhibited as shown in Matthew 13:58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.rogerg said:
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
"Faith" in and of itself is not the work. Faith is the basis upon which a person acts (works).
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
In Heb 11:6, faith is not the work. Faith is merely the incentive.
The results of faith will be exhibited in the life of the one who has faith.
Look at Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son
Because Abraham had faith he offered up Isaac. But Abraham's faith was not "work". Abraham's faith was the foundation upon which he acted (worked) in offering up Isaac.
In Hebrews 11:19 we read Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
Abraham's faith that God would raise up Isaac from the dead was the motivator. Read what Abraham told the men who accompanied him and Isaac:
Genesis 22:4-5 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off. And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.
Abraham believed that God would raise up Isaac and both he (Abraham) and Isaac would return to the young men.
Abraham's actions (work) rested on his faith that God would raise Isaac up. Then, because of Abraham's faith in God, Abraham followed through with his actions (work) in taking Isaac to the place God told him (Gen 22:2). Faith was Abraham's absolute trust in God ... that both he and Isaac would return because God would raise Isaac up. And Abraham's faith was counted unto him for righteousness (Rom 4:3).
In the Greek, that word "counted" in Rom 4:3 is the same word used in Heb 11:19 (accounting that God was able to raise him up).
So are you then saying that faith was a gift to Abraham from God (and to all true believes), or that its origination was from Abraham?
Just specify whether it is from God or from Abraham, one or the other
Can we just get off this "faith is a gift" thing?
Faith is a noun. Believing is a verb.
Faith is a gift as a noun. Believing is NOT a gift. Faith is what we believe. What we believe comes from God.
But, believing what God has said in His Word is not a gift. It comes from OUR OWN heart. Rom 10:10.
Calvinists believe that God has to regenerate people in order to believe, and then cause them to believe the gospel.
That is warped. Regeneration and salvation are equated in Eph 2:5. And then, in v.8 we see clearly that faith precedes salvation, since we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH.
So, no one is regenerated before faith. That is Scripturally impossible.
Faith comes from God for faith is inherent within mankind and it is God Who created, formed, made mankind. Faith is just as much a part of mankind as intellect. Everyone has faith ... even unbelievers have faith.
The difference between the unbeliever and the believer is that when truth is told to the unbeliever, the unbeliever suppresses the truth in unrighteousness ... just as Rom 1:18 tells us.
Romans 1:18-19 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
The words "who hold" are translated from the Greek word katechō, which means to suppress, hold back, restrain. When the Word of God is spoken or when the truth of God is revealed to them, it is restrained from reaching the heart of the unbeliever. They reject the truth. They reject God.
Psalm 50:17 Seeing thou hatest instruction, and castest my words behind thee.
That is why, as @FreeGrace2 states, "faith is a noun, believing is a verb". And @eternally-gratefull has shown you that the unbeliever hardens his/her own heart and God strengthens that which the unbeliever does to him/herself.
The question is not “does someone have faith”.
The question is “in what (Who, more specifically) do we place our faith”.
The more someone places their faith in (believes) a lie, the worse it is for them.
The atheist places his/her faith in the fact that there is no God. He/she remains weak in faith ... even to the point where God strengthens that unbelief (hardens their heart).
The believer places his/her faith in the Truth that God is the Creator of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein. The believer's faith is strengthened as he/she believes more and more of the Truth of God's Word.
Look at Abraham's faith again:
Romans 4:
18 Who [Abraham] against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
They can't seem to fathom, faith is not a work. It is a work of God, We do not get faith of our own power or come up with it on our own.
While yes, those who have faith will do something, we are discussing salvation here. Salvation is by grace through faith period. No works are involved.
Saying this is not easy believing. It is the facts of the gospel.
As you said, Works are a result of faith. hence are a result of being born again
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
what do you think this means?
[Rom 4:16 KJV]
16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
The verse says "of faith" that it might be "by grace". It is of faith and by grace so that the PROMISE is SURE. By this, and by the fact that it was God's PROMISE, are we informed that there are certain specific individuals predestinated to receive the PROMISE, and, they cannot, not, receive it, because it was God Himself that made it SURE. By being made sure by God, the faith and grace spoken of cannot be dependent upon the seed in any way or God would not have said that it is SURE: it is entirely our of their hands. This being the case, the faith spoken of, or anything than can alter the promise, cannot be dependent upon recipient of the promise.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
And abraham believed God....(even though his faith was weak, as he proved after he was declaired righteous)
It is of faith.
you should stop there. Because thats where it ends
Which of the below is correct, by works, or not by works? Rom 4:2 says Abraham was NOT justified by works while Jas 2:21
says that he was. Which is it? Do we have a schism in the Bible so that it contradicts itself? We know that could not be
possible because it was written by God.
So I ask you, which one is correct? Reconcile them for us
[Rom 4:2 KJV]
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.
[Jas 2:21 KJV]
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
What does that mean??? Makes no sense! The verse is the verse and it is as I posted
Here's two more while you're at reconciling verses. Can you or renewddaybyday
figure them out? Seems to say works are necessary - but then again, we see Titus 3:5 says that we can't be saved by works
which one is correct?
[Jas 2:14 KJV]
14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[Tit 3:5 KJV]
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
We have no schism whatsoever.
Both passages are written to two different groups.
The group in romans tried to add works to the gospel. Paul shut them down by declairing that Abraham was saved apart from works. For if he was saved by works, he has something to boast about. but not before God
In James. James was speaking to easy believers, Licentious. Hearers of the word only not doers. Those who think we can believe in christ with no faith (dead) faith and think we are saved. He said if we CLAIM to have no faith. But do not have the works even paul said we will do (eph 2: 10) then our faith is dead. Can that faith save us?? Of course not. Even demons believe and tremble
Abraham justified his faith to HIMSELF and OTHERS based on his works that he had true saving faith.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
What do you think you are going to school us?
So are you defending a works based Gospel? Is that what your trying to do?
Oncve again. You have to look at the context of who james was speaking to. James did not contadict paul.
Both Paul and james are correct in their words. They DID NOT CONTRADICT. Although workers for salvation want to make them contradict by placing james over paul
Nope. The principles of salvation are not group, or listener based- they are eternal and I'm surprised
you would even say that
I'm trying to point out a flaw in your reasoning to you. Both things have to be correct- have to harmonize at the same time, but it seems
you are unable to figure out how to get that to happen.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
dude whatever.
I guess james and paul contradicted each other.
You want a bible that contradicts. You can have it. Mine does not..