The Falling Away - pre-trib rapture or ???

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Clayman said:
Im Gobsmacked, I didnt pick you as an amil, or one to use amil tactics, that's a lot of verses about Israel gathered into the Kingdom that are in the bible, but now obsolete...
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I am actually Pre-mil.

Even Paul would disagree he said 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

I guess it should say, All scripture, except the verses that contradict the post tribulation rapture they no longer count, are profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.
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All well and good until we realize the first covenant was said to last forever and yet here we are in a new covenant. The truth is things can change. Did you know Daniel wrote that the Antichrist would uproot and overthrow 3 of 10 horns/kings yet in John's Revelation this does not happen? All ten horns/kings exist just fine until entire beast is destroyed at the second coming.

Also I see Israel will accept Jesus Christ as their Messiah by the end of the tribulation
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Except that isn't found in the bible. Go ahead, show any verse that says that.



Anyway if I may change topic with a question for you, cos now im really curious, what is so important or vital about the post tribulation rapture? Why does it need to happen, why cant the Lord just arrive on earth and resurrect everyone without a rapture? Just what is the main reason for it from your point of view?
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The rapture is either happening before trib, during trib or after trib. I have searched bible, raised in a pre-trib church, and what I found was the rapture being address twice in regard to when it happens and both times it was described as happening after the trib. That's the only reason I am post-trib. I have posted those passages before and can again if you wish.
 
ewq1938 said:
No, that was God's wrath. There was no tribulation. Tribulation is the same as persecution and that didn't happen to Noah or his family.
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The tribulation in Noahs day would have been the flood. Those who experienced it never experienced any form of tribulation like it.

Noah and his family were saved out of that tribulation
 
ewq1938 said:
Chapter 4 says no such thing.



This is there.




Chapter 4 says no such thing.
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Rev 4: 4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.

Rev 4: 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:

Rev 5:
8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”

Try again??? who do these elders represent out of every tibe tongue and nation, ressurected By God, sitting in the throne room, Laying their crowns at his feet.
 
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eternally-gratefull said:
Those are the cry's of the saints. when will you avenge our blood.

Thats not these people we are discussing here

The tribulation saints have not been resurrected yet.
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They came out of the gt.
They had robes that needed washing
They are martyrs....millions of them.

Nothing can hide those facts
 
ewq1938 said:
I am actually Pre-mil.



All well and good until we realize the first covenant was said to last forever and yet here we are in a new covenant. The truth is things can change. Did you know Daniel wrote that the Antichrist would uproot and overthrow 3 of 10 horns/kings yet in John's Revelation this does not happen? All ten horns/kings exist just fine until entire beast is destroyed at the second coming.



Except that isn't found in the bible. Go ahead, show any verse that says that.





The rapture is either happening before trib, during trib or after trib. I have searched bible, raised in a pre-trib church, and what I found was the rapture being address twice in regard to when it happens and both times it was described as happening after the trib. That's the only reason I am post-trib. I have posted those passages before and can again if you wish.
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Postribs have a huge quandry with all the pretrib verses.

Iow.....it, postrib rapture, is impossible and easily observed erroneous, with a bible
 
stilllearning said:
I just typed out a two hour reply only to find out can't send replies over a 1000 words........LOL I am pretrib bro, just agree that Noah is not a good example or fitting based on scripture to a pretrib rapture. Would enjoy interacting and discussing our interpretation. However, so that I don't try and fit a whole bunch of concepts or precepts into a single post and get the 1000 word message again.

Can we discuss line by line or one idea at a time until the whole picture is painted?

If so please explain how Noah was delivered when Peter says explicitly he was saved and saved and delivered as defined are not the same thing per what you say here "Noah and Lot in the midst of great tribulation leading up to God's wrath but delivered from the wrath of God."

Noah was saved, he went through it and God kept him safe. The rain fell on him and the water arose so he was not delivered or removed he was in it and God saved him kept a eye out over him.

Lot was removed and the wrath could not fall until he was even a safe distance away as the scripture points out. Lot was removed he had no ark no umbrella that kept him safe as God's wrath came down he was absent it. He was delivered he was removed per the scripture and even per the way Peter explains it.

So Noah was not delivered he was saved per scripture. So not sure how you can say they were both delivered when they were not nor does it say so but points out the very difference of each.
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Go back and read mat 24

Jesus framed Noah and THE RAPTURE preflood.

It can not be changed.

Noah, IN NO WAY was EVER delivered post flood.

Nothing can change that.
 
ewq1938 said:
If Lot is an example of living saints being pre-trib raptured then who in Sodom would be tribulation saints?

Also, does God rain down fire from heaven to the Earth during the great tribulation?
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i used to hear all the time " God takes the wicked first"

Then they start their "irrefutable" evidence wailing away at the air.

What a joke.

Trying to twist Gods word into " wicked are ALWAYS GATHERED FIRST"

NO wicked gathered first with Noah, lot, the baby Jesus removed to egypt or the one taken/left of mat 24

Just making a side point.
 
DavidTree said:
False - He was right in it - you must rely on scripture and not men's words.

pre-trib rapture does not exist in Scripture

Who did Enoch face tribulation from???
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You ignoring the pretrib rapture verses does not mean they are not there
 
DavidTree said:
They are saying Noah was pre-trib raptured - by being lifted up above the flood (Great Tribulation) and so in effect He was taken to Heaven and then brought back to earth. This is how they seek to establish pre-trib in OT accounts.

What they fail to realize is that the 'Flood' was God's wrath.
Noah went through great tribulation such as the world never before witnessed to that time in Noah's day.
God kept Noah during those years of great tribulation just as our Lord is Keeping and will continue to Keep those who are His unto His Second Coming. Keeping us in Him, no matter what we face, He never forsakes or leaves us.

Just like Noah - when Christ returns, we will not suffer God's wrath = the wrath of the Lamb.
Like Noah we will be Lifted Up - First the Resurrection and then those who remain and are alive at His Coming - After the Tribulation.

Matthew 24: 29-31 Immediately after the Tribulation - Comes the Lord and we are gathered UP.

They seek to establish what God never said - pre-trib rapture.
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I guess you never realized the ac comes for a job. THAT JOB IS TO KILL BELIEVERS.

MY BIBLE( NOT YOURS) says ALL TAKE THE MARK.

So even your fancifull notions of beleivers running from cave to cave does not at all fit reality.

My bible says "HE OVERCOMES THE SAINTS"

IT EVEN SAYS POWER IS GIVEN HIM( TO OVERCOME THE SAINTS)

ALL ON EARTH TAKE THE MARK.
YOU AGAIN...HAVE NO STANDING
 
Absolutely said:
i used to hear all the time " God takes the wicked first"

Then they start their "irrefutable" evidence wailing away at the air.

What a joke.

Trying to twist Gods word into " wicked are ALWAYS GATHERED FIRST"

NO wicked gathered first with Noah, lot, the baby Jesus removed to egypt or the one taken/left of mat 24

Just making a side point.
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If the wicked were not gathered first, how did the wicked survive???
 
DavidTree said:
Beautiful except your last sentence - get rid of the word pre-trib and everything is perfect.

Lot was not pre-tribbed - he was in the very middle of it right to the very End just as Noah and Elijah were.

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)— then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,

And this passage also destroys the lie of pre-trib.

Noah and Lot in the midst of great tribulation leading up to God's wrath but delivered from the wrath of God.

Indeed the hour is coming, yes, has now come, that you will be scattered, each to his own, and will leave Me alone. And yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me. These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace.
In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

1.) wait for JESUS
2.) the Ressurection
3.) Delivered from God's wrath - the wrath of the Lamb
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Now , in your mind, lot was delivered after sodom destroyed?

Psssssst...you also need noah delivered post flood.

That is how far off you take reframing the bible

Pure nonsense
 
ewq1938 said:
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

What is this talking about?
Clayman said:
This seems to be undoubtedly referring to the rapture, my friend :D
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And also note that "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" is in the epistle's context of the Second Advent. So that's when the gathering will occur.

Just for clarity, none of the "rapture verses" include any mention of Jesus taking resurrected/raptured belivers to heaven.

The reason is because none will be. When Jesus returns to earth, those still alive will be "changed in the twinkling of an eye" in the clouds and then stay with Jesus as He sets up His kingdom ON the earth.

That means that those who will be "changed in the clouds" won't ever enter the 3rd heaven.
 
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