Understanding the Trinity as a doctrine.

[justbyfaith]

There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5); even the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21).

However, no one can say that Jesus is the Lord apart from the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3).

And, Jesus is the Lord (1 Corinthians 8:6).

Now, can you say that Jesus is the Lord in light of the information that there is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5); even the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21).

If you cannot, then you do not have the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3).

My conclusion is that Jesus and the Father are the same Lord (1 Corinthians 12:5, 2 Corinthians 8:19).

And therefore, since the Lord is the Father, even the Most High God, it is only logical to conclude that Jesus, who is the one Lord of holy scripture, is the Most High God.

They are the same Spirit; for Jesus is the incarnation of the Most High God.

The Most High is referred to as:

* The one Lord of heaven and earth (Ephesians 4:5, Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21).

Since Jesus is the one Lord (1 Corinthians 8:6, 1 Corinthians 12:3), He qualifies as the Most High God.

 

[MalikB]

Even after Jesus’ death, he was still recognized as a separate entity from his Father:



Galatians 1:3

Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,


Ephesians 6:23

Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.


2 Timothy 1:2

To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.


Titus 1:4

To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.


2 John 1:3

Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.


Revelation 1:1-2

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.


Revelation 1:4-5

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood


Revelation 3:21

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

 

[justbyfaith]

Of course Jesus is a distinct Person from the Father in that the Father is a Spirit inhabiting eternity (Isaiah 57:15) without flesh while Jesus is entirely come in the flesh (1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7).

The Greek word for "and" in many of the verses above is "kai", and it can be translated "even".

Jesus and the Father are the same Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:4, Ephesians 4:4).

The Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24) inhabiting eternity (Isaiah 57:15) without flesh;

While the Son is that very same Spirit (John 4:24, Ephesians 4:4) dwelling in flesh (the hypostatic union creates a distinct Person from the Father; who is the same Spirit / Person as the Father).

 

[MalikB]

Who hath ears to ear, let him hear...


Genesis 23:5-6


5 And the children of Heth answered Abraham, saying unto him,

6 Hear us, my lord: thou art a mighty (Elohim) prince among us: in the choice of our sepulchres bury thy dead; none of us shall withhold from thee his sepulchre, but that thou mayest bury thy dead.



In Genesis 23:6 Abraham was not only called a prince, but also "lord" and "god". The word translated here as "mighty", is the the same word for God as Genesis 1:1 ("In the beginning God").

In Deu 32:8 it also says that the nations were divided by the children of "gods". This was later changed to "Israel" in the Masoretic text... but the Septuagint, Samaritan Pentateuch and the Dead Sea Scrolls all show that "gods" was the correct text.


I've posted a few times now:


Psalm 82:6

I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.


There are multiple scriptures where the titles "lord" and "god" were used to refer to others besides The Most High and the Messiah. There will always be confusion surrounding the topics of God, Lord, The Father, Jesus, Holy Spirit, etc. if we don't use language and context to break down what these words originally meant, and how they were used.

There are specific titles in scripture that are unique to The Most High though....

• THE MOST HIGH GOD
• THE ALMIGHTY
• Above all gods
• יהוה

 

[justbyfaith]

1Co 8:5, For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1Co 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

I will say, here, that capitalization does matter; since there is one Lord but there are many lords; and there is one God but there are many gods.

I contend that the Father and Jesus are called the Lord with a capital "L" and that therefore, they are the same Lord; because there is one Lord (both in 1 Corinthians 8:6 and in Ephesians 4:5).

That one Lord is indeed the Most High God; as He is the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21).

 

[MalikB]

Isaiah 44:6

Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.


Isaiah 40:18

To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?


Isaiah 40:25

To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.

 

[justbyfaith]

Isa 44:24, Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
.
.
.
Jhn 1:1, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2, The same was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3, All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Col 1:13, Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14, In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15, Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16, For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Eph 3:9, And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

 

[justbyfaith]

Of course there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4) who has been incarnated in the Person of the Son.

 

[MalikB]

How does Jesus get his power?


John 5:26

For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;


John 12:49

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.


John 6:37

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.



John 13:3

Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;




Even after Death:


Revelation 1:1

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John



All power from Jesus comes by way of the Father... Not the other way around.

 

[MalikB]

You will come across illogical arguments like the capital letter "L" in "Lord" being evidence that The Son and the Father were the same entity...

I guess nobody was able to figure out Jesus and TMH were the same being until we had certain English translations .


Psalm 110:1

The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

 

[Blik]

Christ did not ever speak of doctrine nor argue about it.. Christ spoke of how to LIVE in the new kingdom of God, not how to THINK in the new kingdom of God.

There are things that God knows that man can not completely comprehend and this is one. We live in the flesh, God lives in the spirit. It is enough to try to understand direct instructions about how we are not to go by the rules of the world but the rules of God,

Do you understand like to love your enemies, don't fight them. Not to fight for our rights? No lawsuits? That is revolutionary. God is one, yet we are told of three ways God is? Impossible in the flesh, so let it be. Live as the Lord tells us, don't be a scholar of the Lord only.

 

[justbyfaith]

You will come across illogical arguments like the capital letter "L" in "Lord" being evidence that The Son and the Father were the same entity...

I guess nobody was able to figure out Jesus and TMH were the same being until we had certain English translations .


Psalm 110:1

The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6).)

 

[MalikB]

Jews have always been monotheistic, and have never accepted the trinity. Let's take a look at one of the Messiah's conversations with one:


Mark 12:32-34

32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.


Was this Jewish scribe an exception to monotheism? Did he really mean that that one god was actually 3 co-equal beings called god... including the Messiah he was speaking to? Where is the belief of this trinity in Jewish history?

The Messiah didn't correct him, but rather praised him for his answer. That would have been a good time to bring up how this trinity doctrine works... that way centuries later people wouldn't have to interpret it into the scriptures.

 

[Rondonmon]

Sometimes I feel like the difference between oneness and trinitarianism is semantics, or a disagreement over the word "person".

It's better explained in the manner Jesus used to explain complex problems unto his Disciples via examples, or in other words parable-like form, which juxtaposes the problem against a real-world situation.

So, is Jesus God the Father or the Holy Spirit? No, they are all three different personas, but all three one in Spirit.

EXAMPLE:

Let's take a reservoir of three trillion gallons of water, in that reservoir every ounce of that water has the exact same make-up in its Chemical components, it's all exactly the same throughout. Not one drop is different from another.

Now, take 100 gallons (Jesus) of this water and pour of over a person's head, he will no doubt be soaking wet, but he will be OK. Now, take another 100 gallons (Holy Spirit) and pout it over the same person's head, once again, he will be extremely wet, but he should be A-OK. Now, take the whole three trillion (God the Father )gallons (- the 200 SMILE) and pour that over the sane guy's head, and IMHO, he will surely die.

The Three are the EXACT SAME in Make-up (Spirit = the Water), they are Love, Hope, Joy, Peace, Longsuffering, Patient, Kindness, Faithful, etc., etc., etc. thus they are all three the exact same in Spirit. The Three are all three unique individuals in their offices, God the Father has the ABUNDANCE of the Glory, God the Son/Redeemer has redeemed us unto God, God the Holy Spirit is our Helper.

NOTICE: Jesus was God and men could look on him, (just like the 100 gallons didn't kill the man). The Holy Spirit is God and He can live in us (the 100 gallons is survivable). God the Fater could not live in a human being, we would explode and die seeing all of His Glory !! When Moses merely looked at His hinder parts, Moses's hair turned white. When the 70 looked in the Ark of the Covenant, they all died. No man can look upon the full Glory of the Father and survive, we looked upon Jesus and the Holy Spirit lives in us. The Father = the Three trillion gallons of water. It is the SAME WATER, but the Father has the ABUNDANCE of the Glory.

So, in essence, the Trinity is all three are ONE ON SPIRIT (the Water) but different unique INDIVIDUALS, with unique offices. (100, 100, Three Trillion). The Father has the ABUNDANCE of the GLORY.

 

[MalikB]

It's better explained in the manner Jesus used to explain complex problems unto his Disciples via examples, or in other words parable-like form, which juxtaposes the problem against a real-world situation.

So, is Jesus God the Father or the Holy Spirit? No, they are all three different personas, but all three one in Spirit.

EXAMPLE:

Let's take a reservoir of three trillion gallons of water, in that reservoir every ounce of that water has the exact same make-up in its Chemical components, it's all exactly the same throughout. Not one drop is different from another.

Now, take 100 gallons (Jesus) of this water and pour of over a person's head, he will no doubt be soaking wet, but he will be OK. Now, take another 100 gallons (Holy Spirit) and pout it over the same person's head, once again, he will be extremely wet, but he should be A-OK. Now, take the whole three trillion (God the Father )gallons (- the 200 SMILE) and pour that over the sane guy's head, and IMHO, he will surely die.

The Three are the EXACT SAME in Make-up (Spirit = the Water), they are Love, Hope, Joy, Peace, Longsuffering, Patient, Kindness, Faithful, etc., etc., etc. thus they are all three the exact same in Spirit. The Three are all three unique individuals in their offices, God the Father has the ABUNDANCE of the Glory, God the Son/Redeemer has redeemed us unto God, God the Holy Spirit is our Helper.

NOTICE: Jesus was God and men could look on him, (just like the 100 gallons didn't kill the man). The Holy Spirit is God and He can live in us (the 100 gallons is survivable). God the Fater could not live in a human being, we would explode and die seeing all of His Glory !! When Moses merely looked at His hinder parts, Moses's hair turned white. When the 70 looked in the Ark of the Covenant, they all died. No man can look upon the full Glory of the Father and survive, we looked upon Jesus and the Holy Spirit lives in us. The Father = the Three trillion gallons of water. It is the SAME WATER, but the Father has the ABUNDANCE of the Glory.

So, in essence, the Trinity is all three are ONE ON SPIRIT (the Water) but different unique INDIVIDUALS, with unique offices. (100, 100, Three Trillion). The Father has the ABUNDANCE of the GLORY.

Jesus gets his power from The Most High, not the other way around.

The holy spirit (TMH's energy) comes from The Most High, not Jesus.

Jesus is a God not The Most High God.

 

[CS1]

it is unbiblical to refer to the Holy Spirit as "an energy".

The Holy Spirit can be grieved, Blasphemy, and quenched. He is called the:

Comforter, Spirit of the Living God Spirit of the Lord, and Holy Ghost. He empowers, leads into all truth Speaks of Jesus as John 14 -16 Chapters tell us. He convicts the world of sin, draws men and women to Christ for salvation.

TO speak of the Holy Spirit as energy when HE is the Spirit of GOD who is GOD is speaking profane of the Spirit of the living God.

This is not a Christian doctrine to say the Holy Spirit is an energy.

It is not even Oneness, this comes from the cult "Jehovah witnesses".

This language referred to the Holy Spirit as an "energy " should never be used
and those who do are unlearned in the Context of the Holy Spirt and are making the Holy Spirit common. Are there other energies in the world? Can the Holy Spirit be placed in the context of energies as all others?

HE is GOD!

 

[AandW]

He is called the:

Spirit of the Living God, Spirit of the Lord.

As the SPIRIT of the Living GOD and LORD [LORD GOD], why must a SPIRIT be defined as a Person when that is incorrect?

It seems being known as the Holy [Spirit] says it all??

God is SPIRIT!

 

[Rondonmon]

Jesus gets his power from The Most High, not the other way around.

The holy spirit (TMH's energy) comes from The Most High, not Jesus.

Jesus is a God not The Most High God.

No, Jesus is the Most High in Sprit, he is God as is the Holy Spirit as is the Father. Jesus was the Man in Linen in Dan. chapter 12. During the creation of man, the verse says, Let US create man in OUR image and in OUR likeness. So, they have always been one in Sprit.

Not understanding that Jesus is Gid was the Pharisee's problem.

 

[SteveEpperson]

How does Jesus get his power?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. John 1:1

I believe in the inerrant Gospel of John instead of the Watchtower Society's apostate drivel. After all, why would you follow a bunch of high school drop-outs holed up in their mom's basement in Warwick, New York?

 

[SteveEpperson]

John 5:26

For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;


John 12:49

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

I can throw out a bunch of irrelevant scriptures also. You have NOT made your case here. And no one takes the JWs apostacy seriously. I wonder, are the Watchtower goons slipping in their indoctrination techniques?

Jesus is Lord and God. Hallelujah!