The Falling Away - pre-trib rapture or ???

[tanakh]

Well, it never was a complex subject until carnal religious minds realized an opportunity to CA$H in on it.
Pre-trib rapture is the doctrine of the Laodecian church age, which has been for some time now.
There is not one scripture that contains a pre-trib rapture in it - not one, from Genesis to Revelation.
The Saints being delivered from God's wrath - absolutely - from Noah forward and promised by God to His Bride.
To establish their false doctrine they must violate the eternal commandment of God which satan did in the Garden.

“Now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the judgments which I teach you to observe, that you may live, and go in and possess the land which the Lord God of your fathers is giving you. You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it....
Deut 4:1-2

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. Proverbs 30: 5-6

I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book. Revelation 22: 18-19

Firstly you quote Rev 22: 18-19. I have never seen anyone taking or adding to the Revelation. I did see a quote regarding American Christians attitude towards it. The writer said said they can be divided into two groups one group never read it and the second group never read anything else.

The main problem is not so much what one reads in the bible but how the individual interprets it
That can be applied to any subject covered in Scripture.

 

[DavidTree]

Firstly you quote Rev 22: 18-19. I have never seen anyone taking or adding to the Revelation. I did see a quote regarding American Christians attitude towards it. The writer said said they can be divided into two groups one group never read it and the second group never read anything else.

The main problem is not so much what one reads in the bible but how the individual interprets it
That can be applied to any subject covered in Scripture.[/QUOTE

Well, in fact they do, and a perfect example is how they "add to and take away" from Revelation 3:10.

Did you forget what happened in Genesis? Where just a few spoken words were added to God's words.

But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.
Matthew 5:37

Believe what our Lord says - it helps,

and as far as interpretation of Scripture goes, don't forget this:

And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts;
knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
for prophecy never came by the will of man,
but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

i am with Peter, Paul, John on this: For we did not follow cunningly devised fables....

pre-trib rapture is a serpentine cunningly devised fable

 

[DavidTree]

Firstly you quote Rev 22: 18-19. I have never seen anyone taking or adding to the Revelation. I did see a quote regarding American Christians attitude towards it. The writer said said they can be divided into two groups one group never read it and the second group never read anything else.

The main problem is not so much what one reads in the bible but how the individual interprets it
That can be applied to any subject covered in Scripture.

Well, in fact they do, and a perfect example is how they "add to and take away" from Revelation 3:10.

Did you forget what happened in Genesis? Where just a few spoken words were added to God's words.

But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.
Matthew 5:37

Believe what our Lord says - it helps,

and as far as interpretation of Scripture goes, don't forget this:

And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts;
knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
for prophecy never came by the will of man,
but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

i am with Peter, Paul, John on this: For we did not follow cunningly devised fables....

pre-trib rapture is a serpentine cunningly devised fable

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together"

The ones alive will be caught up together as a group. The resurrected dead are not part of this.

"to have union/be united with them in the clouds,"

What you have done is ADDED / INSERTED a verb besides the one already supplied in the text:


260 [e]
hama
ἅμα
together [ADVERB]
Adv

4862 [e]
syn
σὺν
with
Prep

846 [e]
autois
αὐτοῖς ,
them
PPro-DM3P

726 [e]
harpagēsometha
ἁρπαγησόμεθα
will be caught away [VERB]
V-FIP-1P

-- https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_thessalonians/4-17.htm

I know it sounds like the living will meet with another group (the resurrected dead) and those two groups are caught up together but that isn't what the verse is talking about. It's one group being caught up to meet with another group that is already in the clouds and waiting for the living saints to arrive. Take that and add all the above scriptures speaking about the new resurrection body being in heaven and we arrive at a heavenly resurrection for the dead saints.

The text does not say anything about the two groups "WILL MEET" anything ... (before being "caught up [verb]" TO the MEETING [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR).
NO.



The text DOES, however, state that both components will be "CAUGHT UP [VERB] TOGETHER [adverb--attached to the VERB]" (meaning the VERB-action for BOTH components takes place "AT THE SAME TIME [G260 - together]")...

... and this is what "together [G260] with [G4862] them [G846] will be caught away [G726]" means... (see word order in the Greek at LINK above ^ )

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Well, in fact they do, and a perfect example is how they "add to and take away" from Revelation 3:10.

What does "keep you out-of THE HOUR OF" mean, but out-of a particular TIME PERIOD??

(which is NOT the CONTEXT of the wording as it is used ELSEWHERE as you try to suggest of the word "keep")

 

[DavidTree]

What does "keep you out-of THE HOUR OF" mean, but out-of a particular TIME PERIOD??

(which is NOT the CONTEXT of the wording as it is used ELSEWHERE as you try to suggest of the word "keep")

This is answered by our LORD in John ch 17

also:

from
ἐκ (ek)
Preposition
Strong's Greek 1537: From out, out from among, from, suggesting from the interior outwards. A primary preposition denoting origin, from, out.

Did JESUS say I will pre-trib rapture you or just rapture you or snatch you away - NOPE, NADA, NOTHING, ZIPPO, ZERO

What did the LORD say: "I am Coming" just like He said in Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

from
ἐκ (ek)
Preposition
Strong's Greek 1537: From out, out from among, from, suggesting from the interior outwards. A primary preposition denoting origin, from, out.

Did JESUS say I will pre-trib rapture you or just rapture you or snatch you away

"...the One delivering us OUT-FROM [ek] the wrath COMING" - 1 Thessalonians 1:10 (where Paul's two epistles to the Thessalonians is primarily covering the Subject of : "an eschatological salvation[/deliverance]"...

... and addressing "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)]... the "us" of verse 1:10)

 

[DavidTree]

"...the One delivering us OUT-FROM [ek] the wrath COMING" - 1 Thessalonians 1:10 (where Paul's two epistles to the Thessalonians is primarily covering the Subject of : "an eschatological salvation[/deliverance]"...

HALLELUJAH friend, again i say HALLELUJAH, once more HALLELUJAH

Do you know why???

Read it again:
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

i was waiting for you to come to 1 Thessalonians 1:10 - PERFECT

Read it again - post it on the wall - read it everyday - memorize it

If you are waiting for a pre-trib rapture - ain't gonna happen - major delusion

you are suppose to be waiting for His Son, the Resurrection, JESUS who delivers us from wrath to come

AMEN AMEN AMEN

 

[DavidTree]

"...the One delivering us OUT-FROM [ek] the wrath COMING" - 1 Thessalonians 1:10 (where Paul's two epistles to the Thessalonians is primarily covering the Subject of : "an eschatological salvation[/deliverance]"...

... and addressing "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)]... the "us" of verse 1:10)

HALLELUJAH friend, again i say HALLELUJAH, once more HALLELUJAH

Do you know why???

Read it again:
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

i was waiting for you to come to 1 Thessalonians 1:10 - PERFECT

Read it again - post it on the wall - read it everyday - memorize it

If you are waiting for a pre-trib rapture - ain't gonna happen - major delusion

you are suppose to be waiting for His Son, the Resurrection, JESUS who delivers us from wrath to come is the wrath of the Lamb = Revelation 6:16

AMEN AMEN AMEN

 

[Clayman]

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together"


The ones alive will be caught up together as a group. The resurrected dead are not part of this.


"to have union/be united with them in the clouds,"


And who is the "them" that are in the clouds? It's the resurrected dead and Christ.


"to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."



I know it sounds like the living will meet with another group (the resurrected dead) and those two groups are caught up together but that isn't what the verse is talking about. It's one group being caught up to meet with another group that is already in the clouds and waiting for the living saints to arrive. Take that and add all the above scriptures speaking about the new resurrection body being in heaven and we arrive at a heavenly resurrection for the dead saints.

Thanks for your explanation of your position, even though I may disagree I still enjoyed reading your previous post, I don't have to agree to still enjoy seeing how others view scripture, and one of the points I obviously I may have trouble agreeing with is apparently obvious to you as well as you have pre-pointed it out here

I see TDW has already replied so ill be brief, I don't see us as going up to the clouds to meet them in the air, but to meet the Lord in the air.
"then we who are alive and re-main shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air"

Another point, Jesus descends from heaven before He resurrects those who are asleep in Christ. Which also points to me the fact that the timing is the same as for the rapture.

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." vs 16

So the Lord leaves heaven then resurrects all those of faith who are dead, although I do agree they are in heaven in their spiritual state just not with their physical bodies yet.

So they are resurrected and then they meet the Lord in the air, and vs 17 explains we also go to meet the Lord in the clouds.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

you are suppose to be waiting for His Son, the Resurrection, JESUS who delivers us from wrath to come is the wrath of the Lamb = Revelation 6:16

1) according to those speaking in 6:16 ^ ,17, they are saying (per v.17) "For the great day of his wrath CAME" (not is just now ARRIVING, tho perhaps they are just now acknowledging it "came");

2) according to v.12 ("moon BECAME AS BLOOD" [same as Joel 2:31's "moon INTO BLOOD" which is stated to be "BEFORE the GREAT" ASPECT OF it]) is NOT the same description NOR same timing AS "Matt24:29-31's 'moon SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT" (which is stated to be "AFTER" the GREAT ASPECT OF it, by CONTRAST!)

3) the SEALS of Rev6 are EQUIVALENT TO "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse... these all take place within the FIRST HALF of the "7 yrs" Trib... Seal #6 is NOT equated with Vial #7 at the END of the Trib yrs (nor any of the Trumpets, for that matter... the FIRST FOUR of which take place IN THE FIRST HALF, the LATTER THREE of which take place IN THE SECOND HALF [Trumpet #5 being the MID-TRIB POINT... ALL of the "SEALS" precede the "4 Trumpets" which occur in the latter part OF THE FIRST HALF, so PRIOR TO THOSE even! (like, in the first QUARTER--That is FAR FROM the END of it, see!)]);


... I recommend you study the CHRONOLOGY of Revelation, rather than relying on those who disregard it and also who disregard the fact of the DISTINCTIONS [esp re the distinct MOON references ^ ] noted above ^ , as they are NOT THE SAME [timing-wise OR description-wise!!])








["... the One delivering us out-from [ek] THE WRATH COMING" 1Th1:10 - addressed to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"]

 

[Clayman]

Paul writes that he desires to be clothed with the house from Heaven and says it is eternal in Heaven. That's the resurrected body and it is from heaven not from the Earth nor from an Earthly grave.


1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

The dead saints that resurrect are not brought to Jesus in a rapture but are brought with Jesus before the rapture even begins. That's a very important thing to recognize. Only those living saints are raptured and brought to Jesus and those he brought with him from heaven.

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Jesus comes WITH his resurrected saints and then the living saints are raptured up to meet them.

Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

The saints and angels make up the heavenly army that comes from heaven.

Jesus does NOT come alone, and does NOT rapture up the resurrected saints, and then has a second rapture of the living saints. There is only ONE rapture and it is only for those that hadn't died!

Not to belabour any thing, But a lot of what you say is also true from looking at it from my perspective, if I can explain the Lords coming like a train coming.

The train pulls into London(clouds) and stops and loads up with its passengers on route to its destination Glasgow(earth) It is a 7hr trip(seven years) So we are in heaven(clouds) for seven years while God sends His judgments upon the ungodly in Glasgow(I mean nothing against the Scots whatsoever) So I totally agree with these verses you posted.

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

I will be in that army on that train wearing fine white linen.

Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

In fact if we are still here during the tribulation, wouldn't that mean the Lord cometh with ten thousand saints to execute judgement on those who are ungodly and those who are godly for they will take collateral damage?

The way I see your view, is the train pulls into Glasgow, after seven years of terrible destruction and judgment upon the city while travelling from London, then the saints hop aboard only to hop back out again as it arrives!

 

[DavidTree]

You will never understand all there is in Revelation if you fail to understand what HE said through the prophet Daniel, the Gospels and the Letters.
Create miscues from the beginning, which you have done, and the error continues within you (in your thought patterns and soul)
right up to and including Revelation.
Once the first error, no matter how minor, is committed then it grows and becomes an avalanche or error that will bury you.

So, the enemy is the spirit of error that seeks to manipulate and divide His Body into factions. It has done this successfully with pre-trib and, as you should know other false doctrines, of which are many.

The Way Out - The way to recovery from error begins in Revelation chapter 4
FOLLOW the Example of "the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:

“You are worthy, O Lord,
To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things,
And by Your will they exist and were created.”

Step 1 WORSHIP - Worship begins with removing your crown and casting it at His Feet where it belongs.
Step 2 WORSHIP - "Christ alone is worthy of your praise - do not seek the praises of men (refer to Step 1)
Step 3 WORSHIP - Every word of God is pure.....Do not add to His words Proverbs 30:5-6

During these Steps of Worship, if you belong to the Lord, pray and ask the Lord for His Holy Spirit as in Acts.
Pray for Him to give you a heart to know Him - Jeremiah 24:7
Ask Him to forgive you of any altering of Scripture - any, no matter how slight.

 

[ewq1938]

What you have done is ADDED / INSERTED a verb besides the one already supplied in the text:

No, I added my commentary to it to show people what verse is saying and not saying. The resurrected dead are not raptured because they are already with Christ. The scriptures are VERY clear about that.

 

[ewq1938]

"then we who are alive and re-main shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air"

That is disproven by an earlier verse:

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

This means dead will be with Christ raptured saints are which further proves dead in Christ are in clouds with Christ before living are raptured.

Another point, Jesus descends from heaven before He resurrects those who are asleep in Christ. Which also points to me the fact that the timing is the same as for the rapture.

The order of events is:

1. the 7th trump sounds
2. Christ leaves heaven.
3. the dead resurrect and follow Christ.
4. the dead and Christ are in clouds
5. the living change into immortals and then are raptured to the clouds to meet with "them" as verse 17 mentions.

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." vs 16

So the Lord leaves heaven then resurrects all those of faith who are dead, although I do agree they are in heaven in their spiritual state just not with their physical bodies yet.

Can you address all the other scriptures in my post that show the new body was also in heaven? Everything suggests a heavenly resurrection.

So they are resurrected and then they meet the Lord in the air, and vs 17 explains we also go to meet the Lord in the clouds.

The we in the verse are the living saints. The dead are said to come with Jesus so they aren't with the living saints:

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1. We know that the new body is in heaven. 2Co 5:1
2. We know the living cannot prevent/precede the dead ie: the dead will be with Christ before living will be. 1Th 4:15
3. God will make sure that Jesus brings dead with him. 1Th 4:14

That means the dead resurrect in heaven where the new body is already waiting.

 

[ewq1938]

The way I see your view, is the train pulls into Glasgow, after seven years of terrible destruction and judgment upon the city while travelling from London, then the saints hop aboard only to hop back out again as it arrives!

The meeting in clouds is brief. They are there for a very short time because Christ is in the middle of his visible second coming as he will be descending out of clouds and people on Earth will see it happen.

This also happens after great trib has ended. It is the day of coming when resurrection and rapture take place.

 

[Clayman]

That is disproven by an earlier verse:

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

This means dead will be with Christ raptured saints are which further proves dead in Christ are in clouds with Christ before living are raptured.

Not how I see it, I see us as expediently waiting to be raptured at any moment, to be changed in the twinkling of an eye, meaning we put on our immortal bodies and go to be with the Lord. Paul is telling us (those who believe in a pre-trib rapture, because he presumes we agree with him for this is what hes been telling us is going to happen ) That just because we may get raptured at any moment, does not mean we get our bodies before those who are asleep.

Why? because they are going to be resurrected into their new bodies to, So I see in the verse you quoted that Paul is telling us we will not precede those who have already died, which would be a possible conclusion for one to think if they believed in the pre-trib rapture.


1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

The order of events is:

1. the 7th trump sounds
2. Christ leaves heaven.
3. the dead resurrect and follow Christ.
4. the dead and Christ are in clouds
5. the living change into immortals and then are raptured to the clouds to meet with "them" as verse 17 mentions.






Can you address all the other scriptures in my post that show the new body was also in heaven? Everything suggests a heavenly resurrection.

But I need to understand first what appears to me to be an apparent contradiction in what your saying, your saying the seventh trumpet (which is actually a judgment, but ill address another time) then Christ leaves heaven, then He resurrects the dead?
But then you also say they were resurrected while in heaven, I mean you seem to say both, he left heaven then resurrected them, and He resurrected them before He left heaven?

The we in the verse are the living saints. The dead are said to come with Jesus so they aren't with the living saints:

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1. We know that the new body is in heaven. 2Co 5:1
2. We know the living cannot prevent/precede the dead ie: the dead will be with Christ before living will be. 1Th 4:15
3. God will make sure that Jesus brings dead with him. 1Th 4:14

That means the dead resurrect in heaven where the new body is already waiting.

Yes it is a great hope whether we die in Christ or are raptured, we will be given new bodies at His coming, But even if I am raptured according to 2Cor 5:1 I will be given a new body which will be a new house eternal in the heavens, unless you somehow think this does not apply to those who are raptured? But if it does apply to those who are raptured as I believe it negates your point.

 

[ewq1938]

But I need to understand first what appears to me to be an apparent contradiction in what your saying, your saying the seventh trumpet (which is actually a judgment, but ill address another time) then Christ leaves heaven, then He resurrects the dead?

Yes.

But then you also say they were resurrected while in heaven, I mean you seem to say both, he left heaven then resurrected them, and He resurrected them before He left heaven?

No, he leaves first and then the dead are resurrected in heaven and then they leave to follow him. These things happen so quickly that it will be a very smooth action and they will all arrive at clouds together and very soon after arriving raptured saints will arrive and then Christ will descend down and they all will follow.

Yes it is a great hope whether we die in Christ or are raptured, we will be given new bodies at His coming, But even if I am raptured according to 2Cor 5:1 I will be given a new body which will be a new house eternal in the heavens, unless you somehow think this does not apply to those who are raptured?

The living do not get new bodies. Their current mortal bodies will be changed:

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The dead in Christ will be resurrected, not raptured.
The living in Christ will be raptured, not resurrected.

 

[Clayman]

Yes.



No, he leaves first and then the dead are resurrected in heaven and then they leave to follow him. These things happen so quickly that it will be a very smooth action and they will all arrive at clouds together and very soon after arriving raptured saints will arrive and then Christ will descend down and they all will follow.

So we both see those that are asleep in Christ are in heaven and are not resurrected yet. Then we both see that Christ descends from heaven with a shout and the dead in Christ rise first, then we who are alive shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord.

The difference being you have those who are dead being resurrected in heaven, and I have them being resurrected on earth, then you have them being snatched down to the clouds to be with Christ, while I have them snatched up together with us to the clouds to be with Christ.

The only thing I can say is that I cant think of any verses that talk about the saints in heaven leaving heaven to be with Christ, while 1thes 4:13-18 supports my view that they are caught up to the clouds in the air.

The living do not get new bodies. Their current mortal bodies will be changed:

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The dead in Christ will be resurrected, not raptured.
The living in Christ will be raptured, not resurrected.

Most people refer to our changed bodies as new sinless bodies, but I don't have too much of a problem as referring to them as changed bodies, although those who are in their new resurrected bodies are also in their old bodies, they will be recognisable.

Still my point remains we will be clothed with our habitation from heaven, whether we are resurrected or raptured it is the one and the same.

 

[rayzor]

So we both see those that are asleep in Christ are in heaven and are not resurrected yet. Then we both see that Christ descends from heaven with a shout and the dead in Christ rise first, then we who are alive shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord.

The difference being you have those who are dead being resurrected in heaven, and I have them being resurrected on earth, then you have them being snatched down to the clouds to be with Christ, while I have them snatched up together with us to the clouds to be with Christ.

The only thing I can say is that I cant think of any verses that talk about the saints in heaven leaving heaven to be with Christ, while 1thes 4:13-18 supports my view that they are caught up to the clouds in the air.





Most people refer to our changed bodies as new sinless bodies, but I don't have too much of a problem as referring to them as changed bodies, although those who are in their new resurrected bodies are also in their old bodies, they will be recognisable.

Still my point remains we will be clothed with our habitation from heaven, whether we are resurrected or raptured it is the one and the same.

We know that Enoch Eliyah one of the thiefs on the cross maybe Moses & Aaron went straight to heaven...makes me wonder why not the rest?