Obedient Woman

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
5,896
1,084
113
Oregon
#81
.
Didn't He say that if someone looks at someone else to lust after them then
they've committed adultery in their heart?

Before we can even begin to apply what Christ said about adultery in Matt
5:27-28 we first have to categorize the "woman" about whom he spoke.
Well; she's obviously somebody's wife because adultery is defined as
voluntary carnal activity between a married man and someone other than
his wife, or between a married woman and someone other than her
husband. In other words; in order for an incident to qualify as adultery, at
least one of the participants has to be married.

The Greek word for "lust" is epithumeo (ep-ee-thoo-meh'-o) which means:
to set the heart upon.

Setting one's heart upon something is a whole lot different than merely
liking something and wanting it. The one whose heart is set upon something
is in the process of finding a way to get it; and as such comes under the
rules that control covetousness; which read:

Ex 20:17 . .You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet
your neighbor’s wife, his male or female slave, his ox or donkey, or anything
that belongs to your neighbor.

In other words; when Jesus said "but I say to you" he wasn't introducing
something new. The rule was a standard in the covenant that Moses' people
agreed upon with God back in the Old Testament but the religious authorities
of his day were interpreting it incorrectly.

Coveting, per se, isn't a sin. Paul encouraged the Corinthian Christians to
"covet earnestly" the best spiritual gifts (1Cor 12:31) and to covet prophesy
(1Cor 14:39). To "covet earnestly" means you go after something with the
full intention of possessing it, i.e. to set one's heart upon obtaining it.

Nor is lust per se a sin. For example: the prodigal son's longing for
something to eat (Luke 15:16) the beggar's hunger (Luke 16:21) a spiritual
man's ambition for an office in the church (1Tim 3:1) the angels' curiosity
(1Pet 1:12) and Jesus' desire for a final dinner with his freinds. (Luke 22:15)

Ex 20:17 doesn't condemn erotic fantasies nor a healthy male libido, no, it
condemns scheming to take something of your neighbor's instead of getting
your own.

So then, are Ex 20:17 and Matt 5:27-28 saying that a man can't look across
the street at his neighbor's Harley and drool over it, turning green with
envy? Or that a man can't gape at his neighbor's buxom wife, undressing
her with his eyes, and having erotic fantasies about her? No, the kind of lust
we're talking about here doesn't imply that at all. It implies a man going
after the neighbor's Harley and the buxom wife instead of the man acquiring
his own.

Coming at this from the opposite direction: in the movie "The Bridges Of
Madison County", there's a precise moment when a married Francesca
Johnson makes a definite decision to initiate an affair with free-lance
photographer Robert Kincaid. Francesca was okay with Robert up till the
moment of her decision.

Now, supposing a man was brought up in a strict religion wherein he was
taught to believe that it really and truly is adultery to entertain carnal
thoughts about women-- any woman, whether married or unmarried. Well;
too bad for him because if that is one of his personal moral values, then
whenever that man longs for intimacy with a women, he's an adulterer.

Rom 14:14 . . To him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is
unclean.

Rom 14:23 . . If you do anything you believe is not right, you are sinning.

That is indeed unfortunate because there are perfectly decent men out and
about stacking up piles of unnecessary sins against themselves due to their
perfectly normal, God-given feelings for women.
_
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
#84
.



Before we can even begin to apply what Christ said about adultery in Matt
5:27-28 we first have to categorize the "woman" about whom he spoke.
Well; she's obviously somebody's wife because adultery is defined as
voluntary carnal activity between a married man and someone other than
his wife, or between a married woman and someone other than her
husband. In other words; in order for an incident to qualify as adultery, at
least one of the participants has to be married.


The Greek word for "lust" is epithumeo (ep-ee-thoo-meh'-o) which means:
to set the heart upon.


Setting one's heart upon something is a whole lot different than merely
liking something and wanting it. The one whose heart is set upon something
is in the process of finding a way to get it; and as such comes under the
rules that control covetousness; which read:


Ex 20:17 . .You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet
your neighbor’s wife, his male or female slave, his ox or donkey, or anything
that belongs to your neighbor.


In other words; when Jesus said "but I say to you" he wasn't introducing
something new. The rule was a standard in the covenant that Moses' people
agreed upon with God back in the Old Testament but the religious authorities
of his day were interpreting it incorrectly.


Coveting, per se, isn't a sin. Paul encouraged the Corinthian Christians to
"covet earnestly" the best spiritual gifts (1Cor 12:31) and to covet prophesy
(1Cor 14:39). To "covet earnestly" means you go after something with the
full intention of possessing it, i.e. to set one's heart upon obtaining it.


Nor is lust per se a sin. For example: the prodigal son's longing for
something to eat (Luke 15:16) the beggar's hunger (Luke 16:21) a spiritual
man's ambition for an office in the church (1Tim 3:1) the angels' curiosity
(1Pet 1:12) and Jesus' desire for a final dinner with his freinds. (Luke 22:15)


Ex 20:17 doesn't condemn erotic fantasies nor a healthy male libido, no, it
condemns scheming to take something of your neighbor's instead of getting
your own.


So then, are Ex 20:17 and Matt 5:27-28 saying that a man can't look across
the street at his neighbor's Harley and drool over it, turning green with
envy? Or that a man can't gape at his neighbor's buxom wife, undressing
her with his eyes, and having erotic fantasies about her? No, the kind of lust
we're talking about here doesn't imply that at all. It implies a man going
after the neighbor's Harley and the buxom wife instead of the man acquiring
his own.


Coming at this from the opposite direction: in the movie "The Bridges Of
Madison County", there's a precise moment when a married Francesca
Johnson makes a definite decision to initiate an affair with free-lance
photographer Robert Kincaid. Francesca was okay with Robert up till the
moment of her decision.


Now, supposing a man was brought up in a strict religion wherein he was
taught to believe that it really and truly is adultery to entertain carnal
thoughts about women-- any woman, whether married or unmarried. Well;
too bad for him because if that is one of his personal moral values, then
whenever that man longs for intimacy with a women, he's an adulterer.


Rom 14:14 . . To him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is
unclean.


Rom 14:23 . . If you do anything you believe is not right, you are sinning.

That is indeed unfortunate because there are perfectly decent men out and
about stacking up piles of unnecessary sins against themselves due to their
perfectly normal, God-given feelings for women.
_
That's interesting, but I think lusting for something or someone is quite simple and doesn't require a long-winded theology to explain it.

Simply put, a married person sees someone else that they want and immediately the qualifications of lust are satisfied. All of this adultery takes place within a fraction of a second, a mere twinkling of the eye.

In fact, before someone even realizes they just committed adultery in their heart it already happened.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
42,665
17,120
113
69
Tennessee
#85
.
That is indeed unfortunate because there are perfectly decent men out and
about stacking up piles of unnecessary sins against themselves due to their
perfectly normal, God-given feelings for women.
_
This is called scruples.
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
5,896
1,084
113
Oregon
#86
.
I think lusting for something or someone is quite simple and doesn't require
a long-winded theology to explain it.

You might be surprised at the number of critical thinkers out there looking in
who prefer an intelligent analysis rather than a comment shot from the lip.
_
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
5,896
1,084
113
Oregon
#87
.
Upon tasting the forbidden fruit in the third chapter of Genesis, Adam and
his wife immediately set about making aprons to cover their pelvic areas.
Why? Because they were of a sudden strongly influenced by scruples they
never had before then.

Those scruples did not come from God. In point of fact He demanded Adam
to explain from whence he got the bright idea that nudity is indecent.

As it turned out, Adam's new scruples weren't learned by means of
instruction, rather, they were intuitive.

Gen 3:22 . . And the Lord God said: The man has now become like one of
us, knowing good and evil.

In other words; Adam's conscience-- Adam's fallen conscience --became his
guide in matters relative to sex and the human body.
_
 
T

TheIndianGirl

Guest
#88
Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

In old times marriage was ratified by the "consummation" of the marriage....... becoming "twain"

Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Mathew 19:9

Also, keep in mind that the punishment for adultery was stoning. A couple is joined until death yes, however adultery causes the death of the marriage symbolically speaking (and also in actual sense in the past). That's why it makes sense for modern times, adultery translates into divorce.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
42,665
17,120
113
69
Tennessee
#89
Mathew 19:9

Also, keep in mind that the punishment for adultery was stoning. A couple is joined until death yes, however adultery causes the death of the marriage symbolically speaking.
The worse thing that you can do to a spouse is to cheat. That destroys marital trust that cannot be restored. If you love your spouse you would not even think about cheating let alone actually do it in an act of adultery.
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
3,729
1,921
113
#90
In fact, before someone even realizes they just committed adultery in their heart it already happened.
I think someone would probably realize it before it became adultery.

The enemy puts a lot of thoughts and temptations into people's minds. Having a thought cross your mind and rebuking it isn't a sin. It becomes a sin when people dwell on it and continue thinking about it. That's when it gets in someone's heart and that's is when it becomes a sin.

How strict should we be with adultery and divorce? I mean, Jesus set the bar so high the virtually everyone is an adulterer. Didn't He say that if someone looks at someone else to lust after them then they've committed adultery in their heart? That means they almost everyone is allowed to get divorced because almost everyone has surely lusted after someone who isn't their spouse.
I think in most cases that would be taking it a little too far. I don't think anyone can divorce someone for having an impure thought.
I see how it could be hurtful to find out that your significant other is having impure thoughts about another person, but I don't think it truly gets to the point of no return until they actually physically commit adultery.

I see physical adultery as the most hurtful and worst thing a person can do to their spouse...To me, it is like the unpardonable sin in a marriage. That's just my opinion, but even scripture allows for divorce in cases of adultery. So it seems God must understand exactly how detrimental it can be to a marriage.

However, there are some people who can forgive and forget and work it out, though...or so I've heard, anyhow.
 
Nov 17, 2017
595
409
63
#91
Hi!
Mathew 19:9

....... A couple is joined until death yes, however adultery causes the death of the marriage symbolically speaking (and also in actual sense in the past). That's why it makes sense for modern times, adultery translates into divorce.
Not sure where your getting this from, not bible.
You have references for these statements?
If you think that piece of paper (divorce) seperates man and woman in God sight concerning "modern times",
there is an error
=======
The LORD had His prophet marry a prostitute........

God Bless!
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
3,729
1,921
113
#92
Not sure where your getting this from, not bible.
You have references for these statements?
If you think that piece of paper (divorce) seperates man and woman in God sight concerning "modern times",
there is an error
Here is what Jesus said about it:
Matt. 5:32
But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving. for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and. whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

The LORD had His prophet marry a prostitute........
Yep, that was for a sign or a lesson... but that is not the rule of thumb on marriage.
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
#93
.



You might be surprised at the number of critical thinkers out there looking in
who prefer an intelligent analysis rather than a comment shot from the lip.
_
When possible, the simpler analysis is more effective than the longer analysis. The critical thinkers you're referring to know this.
 
Nov 17, 2017
595
409
63
#94
Here is what Jesus said about it:
Matt. 5:32
But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving. for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and. whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
Agreed!

Again He also said:

Mark 10:9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

What man is excluded? the judge? moses? "side piece"? let no man/woman come in between.

Mark 10:11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
Mark 10:12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.
See the
Yep, that was for a sign or a lesson... but that is not the rule of thumb on marriage.
Yep and he endured the relationship, part of the lesson.

God instituted marriage, not man. So there is a prescribed way. Men "try" to modernize this...we fail.

The perfect picture of marriage would be Christ and His Chrurch
Would Christ divorce the Church?

God Bless
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
3,729
1,921
113
#95
Agreed!

Again He also said:

Mark 10:9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

What man is excluded? the judge? moses? "side piece"? let no man/woman come in between.

Mark 10:11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
Mark 10:12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.
See the

Yep and he endured the relationship, part of the lesson.

God instituted marriage, not man. So there is a prescribed way. Men "try" to modernize this...we fail.

The perfect picture of marriage would be Christ and His Chrurch
Would Christ divorce the Church?

God Bless
Yeah, I agree it is best to stay married. But Jesus also told us that on the condition of fornication or adultery we can end a marriage.

Some people may be able to work it out if their spouse cheats on them, and others may not.

I'm one that could not accept it. I could forgive, but never forget that type of betrayal. I think once someone commits adultery they have broken their marriage...they have become one with another and that just doesn't work.

That is not what God intended.

Matthew 19
4 Jesus answered, Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ 5and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’?

This is the institution of marriage that God created. If one commits adultery they become one with another and in doing so they break the bond between their husband or wife.
 

Icedaisey

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
1,398
475
83
#96
No. I see it more as a story about Arab life. In Saudi Arabia, there were Jews, and early Christians. Early Islam happened in Western Arabia. If one studies, you will see elements of Judaism and Christianity in it. About one Quarter of the Koran is about Jesus and Mary. The reason that they struggle with Jesus as the Son of God is that if God (Allah SWT) is the highest God, they feel he can not have a body and cannot procreate. I am not saying I agree but their point of view is interesting.
It was only recently in Saudi Arabia where the rule of death was removed as a punishment for women who dared to drive.
Saudi Arabia is an Islamic theocracy the Qur'an and the Sunnah tradition are the official practice. Religious freedom is allowed except those who are other than Islamic cannot proselytize their religion.

Further, with regard to Jesus in the Qur'an, Jesus is not referred to as the son of God (Allah). He is not even called Jesus. He is referred to as Isa Masih . And his mother is Maryam. "Praise be to Allah, who begets no son, and has no partner in (His) dominion: Nor (needs) He any to protect Him from humiliation: ...."
 

Icedaisey

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
1,398
475
83
#97
I am sorry that you have had bad experiences. In a Biblical marriage, the wife submits to her husband, and the husband also loves her as Christ loves the church.
Actually, in the New Testament we learn it is a matter of mutual submission. Out of love and respect and because the two become one in marriage.
“Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 1 Peter 3:7 ESV
Ephesians 5 BSB
Wives and Husbands

(Song of Solomon 1:1–17; 1 Peter 3:1–7)
Ephesians 5:21Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.c
22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, His body, of which He is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her 26to sanctify her, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to Himself as a glorious church, without stain or wrinkle or any such blemish, but holy and blameless.
28In the same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29Indeed, no one ever hated his own body, but he nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church. 30For we are members of His body.d
31“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”e 32This mystery is profound, but I am speaking about Christ and the church. 33Nevertheless, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
5,896
1,084
113
Oregon
#98
.
When possible, the simpler analysis is more effective than the longer
analysis. The critical thinkers you're referring to know this.

Were you a critical thinker yourself, you wouldn't be thinking like that; nor
would you presume to speak for every critical thinker out there.

(I'm by no means qualified to say; but I suspect that you may be infected
with an excessive appreciation of your own opinions, i.e. conceited.)
_
 
Nov 17, 2017
595
409
63
#99
Yeah, I agree it is best to stay married. But Jesus also told us that on the condition of fornication or adultery we can end a marriage.
Maybe theres a misunderstanding, divorce is mans doing, not God.
Some people may be able to work it out if their spouse cheats on them, and others may not.
With God in the marriage relationship ALL things are possible.
I'm one that could not accept it. I could forgive, but never forget that type of betrayal.
I agree , its a hard thing, in this life.
But it goes to ...pride of life (feelings hurt and everyones sees)
The Christ overcame this.....
I think once someone commits adultery they have broken their marriage...
When do you become "unjoined"?
State changes, standing remains the same til Christ.
they have become one with another and that just doesn't work.
Sex before marriage, you know trying it out first..before we buy in...
How do you think that effects going into and through the marriage?
That is not what God intended.
Agreed!
Matthew 19
4 Jesus answered, Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ 5and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’?
"Becoming one" is not instant in most cases, to know the wife and the wife knowing the husband is a process, like sanctification,
and we always do not get it right day by day.
If one commits adultery they become one with another and in doing so they break the bond between their husband or wife.
No, not break the marriage covenant, that man cant break, made another bond.
God Bless!
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
I think someone would probably realize it before it became adultery.
Jesus said if someone looks at someone else with lust for them then they've committed adultery in their heart. There is no going back and undoing what happened once a married person lusts for someone else; it's done and it's time to face the inconvient truth that they're an adulterer regardless of whether or not they would ever commit the physical act of adultery.

The enemy puts a lot of thoughts and temptations into people's minds. Having a thought cross your mind and rebuking it isn't a sin. It becomes a sin when people dwell on it and continue thinking about it. That's when it gets in someone's heart and that's is when it becomes a sin.
Jesus said simply looking at someone with lust is enough to qualify as adultery. Lust is a thought.

Matthew 5:28
28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

There's nothing about thinking something for "too long" or "too much" in the Bible. The sin of adultery occurs instantaneously as soon as someone merely wants a partner beside their husband or wife.

I think in most cases that would be taking it a little too far. I don't think anyone can divorce someone for having an impure thought.
Actually, Jesus made it quite clear that fornication is a cause for divorce. He also made it quite clear that looking at someone with lust is adultery. Divorce is allowed for having adulterous thoughts about someone else.

Matthew 5:32
32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

I see how it could be hurtful to find out that your significant other is having impure thoughts about another person, but I don't think it truly gets to the point of no return until they actually physically commit adultery.
I agree and I wouldn't divorce someone who felt attracted to a different man, but I could for the cause of adultery. I'm just pointing out what Jesus taught on this subject.

I see physical adultery as the most hurtful and worst thing a person can do to their spouse...To me, it is like the unpardonable sin in a marriage. That's just my opinion, but even scripture allows for divorce in cases of adultery. So it seems God must understand exactly how detrimental it can be to a marriage.
It's possible to forgive a cheating spouse and move on like nothing happened. I personally think it's worse to have a spouse who is completely uninvolved than one whom commits adultery. I think there comes a point where adultery isn't much of a surprise.

However, there are some people who can forgive and forget and work it out, though...or so I've heard, anyhow.
A M E N!