How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church
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Dear Brother and Friend,
As you know this, believe in Scripture alone - God does not need man's assistance.
We are the ones who always need His Holy Spirit who delights in guiding us into all Truth.
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood.
And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1 John 5
As you know this, believe in Scripture alone - God does not need man's assistance.
We are the ones who always need His Holy Spirit who delights in guiding us into all Truth.
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood.
And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1 John 5
[P.S. Thank you, GaryA, for your kind words... 
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It is always a lot "nicer" when someone tries to keep their focus on the "particulars" of a/the discussion instead of getting all-bent-out-of-shape or some such thing...
And, you seem to do quite well at staying on topic.
I understand why you write your posts the way you do - I do some of that kind of thing myself.
I know the intent is good - to help the reader understand more particularly what you are trying to get across. In general, it does not bother me too incredibly much. However - even I get tired of the extent of effort it sometimes takes to "decode" what you have written.
Please attempt to "balance" the 'overview' against the 'detail' - only adding as much detail as is necessary - and, in as concise a way as possible.
Please attempt to "balance" the 'normal speak' against the 'tech speak' - making your posts look more like a 'discussion' rather than the code in a shell script.
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Do you not realize that - it is the same looking the other way?
(i.e. - post-trib folks think the same thing about pre-trib folks)
That should be enough to convince a group of people who were truly interested in truth to want to have very productive discussions devoid of argument, bad attitudes, mind-games, etc.
I believe 'pre-trib' folks have it wrong.
Why?
Been-there-and-done-that.
I can very clearly see [right through] the error that was once taught to me in church when I was a child.
And when such a person - having that experience, knowledge, and understanding - out of Christian love - tries to get others who are now where they once were - to listen to that which was gained from that experience - to understand why so many have been led into error --- well, it is very discouraging, to say the least.
(i.e. - post-trib folks think the same thing about pre-trib folks)
That should be enough to convince a group of people who were truly interested in truth to want to have very productive discussions devoid of argument, bad attitudes, mind-games, etc.
I believe 'pre-trib' folks have it wrong.
Why?
Been-there-and-done-that.
I can very clearly see [right through] the error that was once taught to me in church when I was a child.
And when such a person - having that experience, knowledge, and understanding - out of Christian love - tries to get others who are now where they once were - to listen to that which was gained from that experience - to understand why so many have been led into error --- well, it is very discouraging, to say the least.
Did you happen to see what cv5 said at the bottom of his Post #1162 (pg 59), about himself? :
https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4658968 - last sentence in that post
So, yeah, I think he knows the feeling... lol
https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4658968 - last sentence in that post
So, yeah, I think he knows the feeling... lol
No they don't.
They both mean "a standing away from [away from a previous standing]" - apo stasis / apo stasia
(aka "departure"... and in the case of 2Th2:3 - "THE departure"... with the "definite article ['the']" which is not ordinarily necessary for this word and isn't used in the case of Acts 21:21; the "definite article" has a couple of FUNCTIONS, which the Wuest article [Greek scholar] I posted explains)
____________
[for the readers: see the word minus the pre-fix "apo" here and its RELATED DEFINITIONS--Note how its ninth occurrence, in the listing at the right side, is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT to its previous eight occurrences: https://biblehub.com/greek/4714.htm "STASIS" - "a STANDING" (1x); "Definition: a rebel, revolutionist; Usage: an insurrection, dissension; originally: standing, position, place." - "Strong's -[...] by implication, a popular uprising; figuratively, controversy -- dissension, insurrection, X standing, uproar." And yes, it's used only 1x in the NT in its "original" sense... it would be ODD for us to INSIST it means ONLY everything in the bold and for us to make it mean those definitions in this 1x [its ninth occurrence] in Heb9:8 [and which v.9 states of this, "which is A PARABLE for THE PRESENT TIME"<---pay careful att'n to this v.9 saying ])]
They both mean "a standing away from [away from a previous standing]" - apo stasis / apo stasia
(aka "departure"... and in the case of 2Th2:3 - "THE departure"... with the "definite article ['the']" which is not ordinarily necessary for this word and isn't used in the case of Acts 21:21; the "definite article" has a couple of FUNCTIONS, which the Wuest article [Greek scholar] I posted explains)
____________
[for the readers: see the word minus the pre-fix "apo" here and its RELATED DEFINITIONS--Note how its ninth occurrence, in the listing at the right side, is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT to its previous eight occurrences: https://biblehub.com/greek/4714.htm "STASIS" - "a STANDING" (1x); "Definition: a rebel, revolutionist; Usage: an insurrection, dissension; originally: standing, position, place." - "Strong's -[...] by implication, a popular uprising; figuratively, controversy -- dissension, insurrection, X standing, uproar." And yes, it's used only 1x in the NT in its "original" sense... it would be ODD for us to INSIST it means ONLY everything in the bold and for us to make it mean those definitions in this 1x [its ninth occurrence] in Heb9:8 [and which v.9 states of this, "which is A PARABLE for THE PRESENT TIME"<---pay careful att'n to this v.9 saying
])]
Why can you not accept the actual definition of the actual specific word used in a particular verse context?
Instead, you try to piece together from various other words not actually used in that verse context.
Stop doing that.
I look up the actual word present in the verse and get 'defection from truth' ("apostasy") as the definition.
I [generally] trust Strong's - so, that is good enough for me. I don't try to see if I can change the definition by comparing "near words" to see if I can "put something together" with other greek words that might mean something else...
You seem to go out of your way to do this type of thing.
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I'm not doing that.
I've repeatedly tried to show that "apostasia" and "apostasis" is THE SAME WORD (which I provided the "definition" at the 1871 edition of the Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon).
Then I provided the following, as evidence of this also:
Post #32 (different thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/the-falling-away-is-this-the-rapture.201579/post-4660657
... to which I received a false accusation by ewq , suggesting those words were NOT IN THE LIST (but they ARE)... which I showed in both Post #54 and in a more detailed way in Post #105 (I think it was)... But have received nothing but SILENCE as a response to my POINTING THEM OUT SPECIFICALLY in that listing.
I've repeatedly tried to show that "apostasia" and "apostasis" is THE SAME WORD (which I provided the "definition" at the 1871 edition of the Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon).
Then I provided the following, as evidence of this also:
Post #32 (different thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/the-falling-away-is-this-the-rapture.201579/post-4660657
... to which I received a false accusation by ewq , suggesting those words were NOT IN THE LIST (but they ARE)... which I showed in both Post #54 and in a more detailed way in Post #105 (I think it was)... But have received nothing but SILENCE as a response to my POINTING THEM OUT SPECIFICALLY in that listing.
In the LXX / Septuagint Greek of that verse (when you click on that link to it), the GREEK word "apostasia" IS IN THAT VERSE.
I'm asking WHICH Hebrew word (there) is it referring to.
Yes, I provided the "verse" reference in my post. I'm asking about THAT VERSE.
I'm asking WHICH Hebrew word (there) is it referring to.
Yes, I provided the "verse" reference in my post. I'm asking about THAT VERSE.
P.S. I did not "bold / highlight / underline / color / italicize / etc" that reference in my post, in any way, so I realize it is VERY EASY to overlook... but it's there!
No, he is not - you are...
The phrases 'the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ', 'our gathering together unto him', 'the day of Christ', and 'that day' are all referring to the same thing - the Second Coming of Christ - as a singular 'event' with "sub-events" that occur within the time frame of the singular 'event'.
The phrases 'the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ', 'our gathering together unto him', 'the day of Christ', and 'that day' are all referring to the same thing - the Second Coming of Christ - as a singular 'event' with "sub-events" that occur within the time frame of the singular 'event'.
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I admit I was wrong on that particular thing. The words are there as you claimed (my eyesight isn't as good as it once was and I missed the words when I first looked) but it is still false that they are the same word because obviously they aren't with the different spellings plus they have different definitions. They are not synonyms. One means a general change of mind on something, like changing one's position on abortion. It is not a word that can mean a rapture/physical departure. The later word has a more specific definition of changing one's mind regarding their faith also known as Apostasy and EVERY tool out there and EVERY scholar agrees on that. It is pretribbers like you who seek to change definition of Apostasia so it can mean a rapture/physical departure but that has ZERO support in the Academic world.
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If you stick to the actual Strong's definition instead of buying into the "modified-Strongs" definition that they falsely call "Strong's definition", you will probably be a lot better off...
Some of that stuff is misleading...
Some of that stuff is misleading...
Thank you for acknowledging that those words were indeed among his listing of words, pertaining to his point. [re: "Georg Benedikt Winer" - https://books.google.com/books?id=i7kC8UOe-4cC&pg=PA24&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=true ]
I disagree...
... obviously.
I've provided several (scholars and references) in past posts, already.
Completely disagree.
I know of a number of excellent scholars out there (past and present) who hold that view of it.
We can agree to disagree on this matter. = )
Have a great evening. Good night.
I disagree...
... obviously.
I've provided several (scholars and references) in past posts, already.
Completely disagree.
I know of a number of excellent scholars out there (past and present) who hold that view of it.
We can agree to disagree on this matter. = )
Have a great evening. Good night.
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The purpose is to mesmerize the reader and disable cognitive thought in accordance with Scripture - this is a tactic of the spirit of error. It is to pull the reader away from proper contextual script into a realm of words and meanings of words and greek and hebrew and verbs and nouns and on and on - this is what the Scribes and Pharisees did and still do. Their god is 'Intellectual' and not Truth.
God knows this and He established and wrote His word as a children's book - for His Children.
Intellectuals, adults, scholars all have a hard time and often stumble at His Word.
Then God did something very Special - He gives His Holy Spirit only to those who honor His Word.
This is what the LORD says:
“Heaven is My throne,
and earth is My footstool.
What kind of house will you build for Me?
Or where will My place of repose be?
Has not My hand made all these things?
And so they came into being,”
declares the LORD.
“This is the one I will esteem:
he who is humble and contrite in spirit,
who trembles at My word.
Whose house do you live in?
God knows this and He established and wrote His word as a children's book - for His Children.
Intellectuals, adults, scholars all have a hard time and often stumble at His Word.
Then God did something very Special - He gives His Holy Spirit only to those who honor His Word.
This is what the LORD says:
“Heaven is My throne,
and earth is My footstool.
What kind of house will you build for Me?
Or where will My place of repose be?
Has not My hand made all these things?
And so they came into being,”
declares the LORD.
“This is the one I will esteem:
he who is humble and contrite in spirit,
who trembles at My word.
Whose house do you live in?