The Second Coming of Christ and the First Resurrection.

[DavidTree]

...and parallel with 26:13... as well as what we see in Revelation 7:9 (as well as some of its results, there in that context--re: "a great multitude... of all the nationS"... and this passage vv.9-14[-17] set in contradistinction to the "144,000" [of a SINGULAR NATION], who will exist on the earth at the same time as the others in this passage, who the "144,000" are said to be "SERVANTS of our God" [compare also with the wording in 1:1]).

There is only One Bride He is Coming back for just as our Lord has said - why fight the words of the Lord?

i have to go now - bye

 

[walknlight]

What about the Saints who are beheaded for their Witness and Testimony in Christ?

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Revelation 12:11

What sins did they commit whereby God left them behind?

Not beleiving the Gospel of Christ before He called us up to Him.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Hi! Agreed. There is a difference between AIR (harpazo)and EARTH(2nd Coming). Could this happen simultaneous?

1. Here is the primary reason why the Resurrection/Rapture and the Second Coming cannot be simultaneous: The Marriage of the Lamb (Rev 19). In order for the Marriage of the Lamb to be completed and the Bride to become the Lamb's Wife, all the saints must be present in Heaven, since the Church is the Bride of Christ. And since the Marriage of the Lamb immediately precedes the Second Coming, it should be obvious that the Resurrection/Rapture occurs at least seven years before the Tribulation/Great Tribulation.

2. The secondary reason is that the Resurrection/Rapture is for the culmination of SALVATION whereas the Second Coming is for the culmination of DAMNATION. They cannot be simultaneous.

3. The tertiary reason is that the Rapture has always been imminent, whereas the Second Coming of Christ comes AFTER the cataclysmic cosmic events described in the Olivet Discourse.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Mt 24:29,30)

At this time, Christ comes WITH all His saints and angels to execute judgment and send His enemies to Hell.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The Bible isn't a mishmash.

No. The Bible is not a mishmash. Just your confused interpretations.

 

[Nehemiah6]

i love you guys - you scare me with words like 'MISHMASH' and then you say you have evidence of this, but are never able to come up with a scripture(s) to prove such accusations - lol -

Please see my post #203. Then abandon your misguided ideas derived from enemies of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. One has to wonder why people hate this precious doctrine.

 

[John146]

Satan likes you brother - you spoke his words just now - Is that important to you?

Really? How? When you quote from the NKJV, you're not quoting from the word of God but a perverse version.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

No. The Bible is not a mishmash. Just your confused interpretations.

What interpretations? I'm going by what The Bible declares. The return of Jesus and resurrection of the dead.
One story. What most of the church has always believed.
You're the one following the trainwreck of a bizarre new fringe idea.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The return of Jesus and resurrection of the dead.

But you have failed to connect the dots properly. Can you imagine this bizarre scenario where Christ is raining down fire from Heaven on His enemies AT THE SAME TIME as the saints are being resurrected and taken to Heaven? The absurdity of this should have been evident to you.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

But it should be clear that the Great Tribulation is the day of the LORD...

Right. "the GREAT tribulation" (second HALF of the "7 yrs") is a PART OF "the DOTL"... AS IS the FIRST HALF of the "7 yrs" (not to mention the entire "1000 yrs" that follow these "7 yrs" is ALSO a part of what is called "the day of the Lord").

The issue (ppl often do not understand) is, the point in time of its ARRIVAL, which Paul in 1Th5:2-3 is saying, (essentially) that it will ARRIVE exactly like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that comes upon a woman (that being, OF "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" which Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse--which are EQUIVALENT to the "SEALS" in Rev6)...
This means that "the DOTL" time period ARRIVES at "SEAL #1" at the START of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period that Rev1:1 [/1:19c / 4:1] referenced, aka at the START of the "7 yr" period, not arriving at its MIDDLE nor at its END.




____________

I'll be back later tonight to address the two questions that @bluto requested on page 4 (been looking for his post all morning, after I caught a glimpse of it last evening just before I closed down... then lost it when I picked up again today... till now... = ) Will be back later for that... I've addressed those two issues in past posts, so will try to look for those to post again [saving me from a large re-typing task ]. Thanks for your patience! )

 

[DavidTree]

You missed th epoint completely - Christ returns for His Bride at His Second Coming - you pre-trib error preaches a false gospel that leaves behind His Bride for a pre-trib group of ???

 

[justbyfaith]

Right. "the GREAT tribulation" (second HALF of the "7 yrs") is a PART OF "the DOTL"... AS IS the FIRST HALF of the "7 yrs" (not to mention the entire "1000 yrs" that follow these "7 yrs" is ALSO a part of what is called "the day of the Lord").

The issue (ppl often do not understand) is, the point in time of its ARRIVAL, which Paul in 1Th5:2-3 is saying, (essentially) that it will ARRIVE exactly like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that comes upon a woman (that being, OF "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" which Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse--which are EQUIVALENT to the "SEALS" in Rev6)...
This means that "the DOTL" time period ARRIVES at "SEAL #1" at the START of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period that Rev1:1 [/1:19c / 4:1] referenced, aka at the START of the "7 yr" period, not arriving at its MIDDLE nor at its END.




____________

I'll be back later tonight to address the two questions that @bluto requested on page 4 (been looking for his post all morning, after I caught a glimpse of it last evening just before I closed down... then lost it when I picked up again today... till now... = ) Will be back later for that... I've addressed those two issues in past posts, so will try to look for those to post again [saving me from a large re-typing task ]. Thanks for your patience! )

As long as you believe that the 2nd half of the GT begins at the seventh trumpet, we are on the same page.

Because it means that the church is not going to be around when the mark, name, and number of the Beast will be being forced on people.

 

[justbyfaith]

That is not the words of Lord in 1 Thessalonians ch4 and 2 Thessalonians ch 2 and 1 John 2:18 and in the entire book of Revelation.

It is forbidden to 'add to and take away from God's words' - this is a terrible sin to commit.

So, please review the Scripture so that you can prove to us - the Saints, that God leaves Saints behind and/or that there is a specific cut off period where there is a pre-trib rapture of His Bride/Saints/Brethren/Overcomers and then a whole new group of people get saved and Christ now has a Second Bride that He will Return for a THIRD Time.

Because this is EXACTLY what you are saying and fully believe in pre-trib doctrine.

I have taken all of God's word into account in formulating my opinion; and have not added to or taken away from it.

 

[DavidTree]

I have taken all of God's word into account in formulating my opinion; and have not added to or taken away from it.

God only cares about you believing His Word without adding or taking away from His words.

He never said anywhere - pre-trib rapture - He did say the antichrist comes before His Return (2 Thess 2, 1 John 2:18, Daniel7) and the dead in Christ Rise First and after that the rapture (1 Thess 4)
He also said the First Resurrection occurs after the completion of the fifth Seal in Revelation ch 6 and we see this First Resurrection in Revelation ch 20.

This is His Revelation - no one else has any say in it. = Revelation 22:18-19

 

[justbyfaith]

@DavidTree,

I believe that the church is not going to participate in the wrath of the Lord (1 Thessalonians 5:9);

And, that the GT is a time of God's wrath (Zephaniah 1:14-15, Luke 21:23).

Unless you can directly answer this argument, I do not see myself changing my pov any time soon.

 

[DavidTree]

@DavidTree,

I believe that the church is not going to participate in the wrath of the Lord (1 Thessalonians 5:9);

And, that the GT is a time of God's wrath (Zephaniah 1:14-15, Luke 21:23).

Unless you can directly answer this argument, I do not see myself changing my pov any time soon.

His Bride is not appointed unto God's wrath and we, who know the Word KNOW this - it was never a question on this thread.
Saying that tribulation is God's wrath is again commiting sin by adding to His words.

Unless you recieve the teaching of the Lord in the Scriptures that pertain directly to His Return and the Resurrection you will never see or know the Truth, no matter what Old Testament Scriptures you read, you will come to a erroneous conclusion.
The Lord Jesus Christ is the Word and He knows better then anyone - trust Him and His words - do not add or take away - that is what satan does - do not be a satanist - be a follower of Christ.

 

[DavidTree]

1. Here is the primary reason why the Resurrection/Rapture and the Second Coming cannot be simultaneous: The Marriage of the Lamb (Rev 19). In order for the Marriage of the Lamb to be completed and the Bride to become the Lamb's Wife, all the saints must be present in Heaven, since the Church is the Bride of Christ. And since the Marriage of the Lamb immediately precedes the Second Coming, it should be obvious that the Resurrection/Rapture occurs at least seven years before the Tribulation/Great Tribulation.

2. The secondary reason is that the Resurrection/Rapture is for the culmination of SALVATION whereas the Second Coming is for the culmination of DAMNATION. They cannot be simultaneous.

3. The tertiary reason is that the Rapture has always been imminent, whereas the Second Coming of Christ comes AFTER the cataclysmic cosmic events described in the Olivet Discourse.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Mt 24:29,30)

At this time, Christ comes WITH all His saints and angels to execute judgment and send His enemies to Hell.

Your reasoning does not bow the knee before Christ and His words.
You reject 1 Thessalonians ch 4 means you have decided against Christ and His words by adding your words to His.

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.



The

 

[justbyfaith]

Saying that tribulation is God's wrath is again committing sin by adding to His words.

No, it isn't.

It should be clear that the Great Trib is the day of the LORD;

And that the day of the LORD is a day of wrath.

Zep 1:14, The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
Zep 1:15, That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

Luk 21:23, But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

Tell me whether you think the following things are God's wrath or something else.

Rev 8:7, The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
Rev 8:8, And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
Rev 8:9, And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
Rev 8:10, And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
Rev 8:11, And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
Rev 8:12, And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
Rev 8:13, And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
Rev 9:1, And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:2, And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
Rev 9:3, And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Rev 9:4, And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
Rev 9:5, And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
Rev 9:6, And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
Rev 9:7, And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
Rev 9:8, And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
Rev 9:9, And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
Rev 9:10, And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
Rev 9:11, And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
Rev 9:12, One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
Rev 9:13, And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
Rev 9:14, Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
Rev 9:15, And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
Rev 9:16, And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
Rev 9:17, And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
Rev 9:18, By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
Rev 9:19, For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
Rev 9:20, And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Rev 9:21, Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Are the judgments mentioned above instituted by satan or God?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Are the judgments mentioned above instituted by satan or God?

You are absolutely correct. The day of the LORD is a period of DIVINE WRATH. The entire period of wrath extends through the 6th and 7th seals. But when Christians start giving too much credit to Satan, then we know that the end is near.

 

[ewq1938]

It should be clear that the Great Trib is the day of the LORD;

Wrong. The day of Lord's wrath comes after the great Trib has ended. That's the day of the second coming which is literally a day. The great trib is 42 months not a day.

Great Trib = satan's wrath for 42 months.
Day of the Lord = One day not months and it is God's wrath for what was done in tribulation against Christians.

There is no excuse for getting these things confused.

 

[Anthony55]

You are absolutely correct. The day of the LORD is a period of DIVINE WRATH. The entire period of wrath extends through the 6th and 7th seals. But when Christians start giving too much credit to Satan, then we know that the end is near.

Amen