If you are willing to receive it??
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No, John is not contradicting Jesus, but Jesus was confirming what Gabriel had said to Zacharias: And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias [Elijah], to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. (Luke 1:17)
This is what was also said about Elijah in Malachi. But the real Elijah is yet to come.
This is what was also said about Elijah in Malachi. But the real Elijah is yet to come.
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And most importantly, why does Jesus say "if you will receive"?
He never says this about other truths, even very difficult ones - for example His flesh and blood being real food and drink. That was apparently very hard to receive, because many disciples left when He said this ((John 6:66)), but still He didn't qualify His statement with anything like "if you will believe" - as far as I know He only said such a thing about John & Elijah.
Why?
He never says this about other truths, even very difficult ones - for example His flesh and blood being real food and drink. That was apparently very hard to receive, because many disciples left when He said this ((John 6:66)), but still He didn't qualify His statement with anything like "if you will believe" - as far as I know He only said such a thing about John & Elijah.
Why?
Can it be read, "And if (you) the subject of this statement) wish (2309/thelo is commonly used of the LORD extending His "best-offer" to the believer) to accept it, the same (as the subject) is Elijah who is to come," since we should be proclaiming the Day of the Lord His if we expect it anytime?
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i feel like you're calling John the Baptist a liar. . ?
and i get the sense you are suggesting i should understand everyone in the Bible to be lying?
why does the Holy Spirit put John 1:21? to prove to us to disbelieve anything John the Baptist says? to call him a liar?
is that the apostle John's intent in putting this in the beginning of his book?
'the Word is God, there was a clueless lying prophet named John who didn't even know who he was, water into wine, Nicodemus, a Gentile woman at a well, etc etc..'
-- is this your take on the narrative of the John's gospel?
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Sure...maybe John the Baptist didn't know that he was Elijah.
However, the Lord made it clear to Zacharias (John's father) that his son would be coming in the power and spirit of Elijah.
So, Zacharias would have had to have not passed this information down to his son for that to be the case.
It may be that the principle in psychology that I mentioned was known even back then; and that therefore in denying that he was Elijah, he was actually confessing that that is who he was.
However, the Lord made it clear to Zacharias (John's father) that his son would be coming in the power and spirit of Elijah.
So, Zacharias would have had to have not passed this information down to his son for that to be the case.
It may be that the principle in psychology that I mentioned was known even back then; and that therefore in denying that he was Elijah, he was actually confessing that that is who he was.
the last verse or the prophets
“Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:
And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.”
Malachi 4:5-6 KJV
the word of birth of John
“But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. …And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”
Luke 1:13, 17 KJV
“For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
And if ye will receive it, this is Elijah, which was for to come. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
Matthew 11:13-15 KJV
Remember this part ?
“And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.”
Malachi 4:6 KJV
well they beheaded John , then crucified the messiah and the curse came upon the earth beginning at Jerusalem it’s why we need salvation from the curse
“But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
When the Lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”
Matthew 21:37-43 KJV
“Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:
And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.”
Malachi 4:5-6 KJV
the word of birth of John
“But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. …And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”
Luke 1:13, 17 KJV
“For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
And if ye will receive it, this is Elijah, which was for to come. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
Matthew 11:13-15 KJV
Remember this part ?
“And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.”
Malachi 4:6 KJV
well they beheaded John , then crucified the messiah and the curse came upon the earth beginning at Jerusalem it’s why we need salvation from the curse
“But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
When the Lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”
Matthew 21:37-43 KJV
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That seems ridiculous. How about looking at who was asking John, and what they were specifically asking, and compare that with what Jesus prefaces His remark with, 'if you will receive'
I for one believe the Bible is full of deep truths we are to dig out, rather than shallow lies and human error. This is God's word, after all. God is not simple; it is to His glory to hide a thing, and ours to search it out.
I didn't make this thread thinking it was an easy question =]
I for one believe the Bible is full of deep truths we are to dig out, rather than shallow lies and human error. This is God's word, after all. God is not simple; it is to His glory to hide a thing, and ours to search it out.
I didn't make this thread thinking it was an easy question =]
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It is only true of liars that they deny the truth. A son of Belial, a servant of Satan.
In the narrative of scripture, John isn't an example of a liar who doesn't know the truth. He is the servant of God, born by prophecy and full of the Holy Spirit, who believes and proclaims the truth.
This isn't easily dismissed by calling him ignorant or a servant of Satan. The Book doesn't support that view.
In the narrative of scripture, John isn't an example of a liar who doesn't know the truth. He is the servant of God, born by prophecy and full of the Holy Spirit, who believes and proclaims the truth.
This isn't easily dismissed by calling him ignorant or a servant of Satan. The Book doesn't support that view.
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I was thinking about that this afternoon, thank you!
What exactly is that curse? The earth has lost Israel - who was supposed to bless the whole world.
Is that it?
And will He not in His grace and faithfulness lift it? He has said over and over He will never utterly forsake His people, but preserve and restore a remnant
What exactly is that curse? The earth has lost Israel - who was supposed to bless the whole world.
Is that it?
And will He not in His grace and faithfulness lift it? He has said over and over He will never utterly forsake His people, but preserve and restore a remnant
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“What exactly is that curse? The earth has lost Israel - who was supposed to bless the whole world.
Is that it?”
the curse comes from thier covenant being broken , he had come to restore them after John came with the baptism of repentance but they refused him as they always did and killed their own messiah.
“The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.”
Isaiah 24:5-6 KJV
see there covenant could be a blessing or a curse based on what they did from the start .
There was a believing remnant ( the early church was all Israelites ) who carried the gospel to all nations which is how they blessed the whole world and this was actually Abraham’s promise
“And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.”
Galatians 3:8 KJV
So israel did bless the earth
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16
In fact our scriptire in the Bible comes from Israelite believers . They became a curse by their covenant breaking the first and also a blessing by the remnant who accepted Christ and were sent out with salvation to all the world preaching the gospel ( Abraham’s promise ) so the children of Abraham are not those born of his blood but those born of Christs blood whether jew or gentile
“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
Galatians 3:27-29 KJV
So it’s not that israel is bad or a curse it’s that they continually broke thier covenant so the curses written in it came to pass and spread through the earth but thankfully the remnant believed and carried forth the blessing of the gospel to the world
they early church is the remnant who was to be spared and be a blessing , but the ot covenant was broken and the curses written and promised in it were also fulfilled when Christ came and they accused him of blasphemy and crucified him
Israel is in heaven now being restored and is made of all believers who come to Christ. In the end he will return israel to ear to and all those born again folk will fill his earth and he will dwell
Among us and be our God like the promise always was
That’s just my own take
Is that it?”
the curse comes from thier covenant being broken , he had come to restore them after John came with the baptism of repentance but they refused him as they always did and killed their own messiah.
“The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.”
Isaiah 24:5-6 KJV
see there covenant could be a blessing or a curse based on what they did from the start .
There was a believing remnant ( the early church was all Israelites ) who carried the gospel to all nations which is how they blessed the whole world and this was actually Abraham’s promise
“And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.”
Galatians 3:8 KJV
So israel did bless the earth
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16
In fact our scriptire in the Bible comes from Israelite believers . They became a curse by their covenant breaking the first and also a blessing by the remnant who accepted Christ and were sent out with salvation to all the world preaching the gospel ( Abraham’s promise ) so the children of Abraham are not those born of his blood but those born of Christs blood whether jew or gentile
“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
Galatians 3:27-29 KJV
So it’s not that israel is bad or a curse it’s that they continually broke thier covenant so the curses written in it came to pass and spread through the earth but thankfully the remnant believed and carried forth the blessing of the gospel to the world
they early church is the remnant who was to be spared and be a blessing , but the ot covenant was broken and the curses written and promised in it were also fulfilled when Christ came and they accused him of blasphemy and crucified him
Israel is in heaven now being restored and is made of all believers who come to Christ. In the end he will return israel to ear to and all those born again folk will fill his earth and he will dwell
Among us and be our God like the promise always was
That’s just my own take
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let's not be silly. in principle i agree with @Mem on that point; both what Christ said in Matthew 11 & what John said in John 1 are true.
not to say i have this worked out -- hence, the thread
but you are clearly suggesting John the baptist lied, either because he was wicked or because he was stupid. i disagree with that; i think the scripture indicates he is neither ignorant nor a liar. i find your position intractable & unsupportable.
we don't have to be enemies because we disagree; but in wisdom we should sort things out about what the real case is
not to say i have this worked out -- hence, the thread
but you are clearly suggesting John the baptist lied, either because he was wicked or because he was stupid. i disagree with that; i think the scripture indicates he is neither ignorant nor a liar. i find your position intractable & unsupportable.
we don't have to be enemies because we disagree; but in wisdom we should sort things out about what the real case is
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but the scribes & pharisees & sadducees had the OT, and knew it better than most Christians today...
yet they would not receive - they could not receive, per John 12:38-40 ((???))
"the hearing ear and the seeing eye, the LORD has made them both" -- Proverbs something-or-other =]
understanding doesn't arise simply from having knowledge; it is the gift of God
yet they would not receive - they could not receive, per John 12:38-40 ((???))
"the hearing ear and the seeing eye, the LORD has made them both" -- Proverbs something-or-other =]
understanding doesn't arise simply from having knowledge; it is the gift of God
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