The Second Coming of Christ and the First Resurrection.

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Nov 17, 2017
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#41
Hi! Good Morning!
Satan's wrath is not Gods Judgment upon His Children.
satan has nothing...cant do squat. Unless Yahweh allows it.
I.E Job, Hedge of protection, Holy Spirit, Who is God in His people....satan has NOTHING.

..and Yahweh's judgement is not Yahweh's wrath/His orgē / His indignation.
The Great Tribulation is His wrath in full effect.

If Ive learned anything, The Hebrew is picturesque , The Greek is PRECISE...


Be Blessed.....
 
Nov 17, 2017
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#42
Hi! Good Morning!


satan has nothing...cant do squat. Unless Yahweh allows it.
I.E Job, Hedge of protection, Holy Spirit, Who is God in His people....satan has NOTHING.

..and Yahweh's judgement is not Yahweh's wrath/His orgē / His indignation.
The Great Tribulation is His wrath in full effect.

If Ive learned anything, The Hebrew is picturesque , The Greek is PRECISE...


Be Blessed.....
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
 
Aug 2, 2021
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#43
What Bible version are you using?

In the kjv:

Luk 21:34, And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
Luk 21:35, For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Luk 21:36, Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
The wrong one i guess, cut and paste off my pc - i use the KJV and NKJ

Thank you.
 
Aug 2, 2021
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#44
Hi! Good Morning!


satan has nothing...cant do squat. Unless Yahweh allows it.
I.E Job, Hedge of protection, Holy Spirit, Who is God in His people....satan has NOTHING.

..and Yahweh's judgement is not Yahweh's wrath/His orgē / His indignation.
The Great Tribulation is His wrath in full effect.

If Ive learned anything, The Hebrew is picturesque , The Greek is PRECISE...


Be Blessed.....
100% Agree about God is in control of all things.

Based on your assessment of satan's wrath(the Great Tribulation) being God's wrath then all of the Saints have been under God's wrath since Genesis.

Yes/No?
 
Aug 2, 2021
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#45
And yet, it still may happen as the result of our prayers for God to do that...in fact, Christ may return sooner as the result of such a prayer.

And therefore Mark 11:24 is certainly not null and void as it applies to our prayer that we may be accounted worthy to escape all those things that are going to come upon the earth and that we might stand before Jesus who is the Son of man.
Impossible, for the Lord would have to rewrite His Word for us and redistribute a updated copy = IMPOSSIBLE.

Surely the Lord God does nothing,
Unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets. Amos 3:7
And now I have told you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe. John 14
“I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.” John 16

Beware my Brother of the sin of pre-trib = it is only found in the words of men who alter scripture for their desire.

Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar. Prov 30:5-6

For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Rev 22: 18 -19
 
Aug 2, 2021
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#46
You should be praying for it as Jesus commands you to do so in Luke 21:36.
Jesus does not want us to believe a lie.
Who told you to believe in pre-trib rapture?- this did not come from God or His Word.

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thess 4

Do not be deceived by error of those who do not bow their knee unto the Word.
This was the error from the Serpent in the Garden and it continues today.
 
Nov 17, 2017
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#47
100% Agree about God is in control of all things.
Agreed!

Based on your assessment of satan's wrath
I disagree with this statement.
Apollyon is not satan.

(the Great Tribulation) being God's wrath
He withdraws Holy Spirit/ministry changes. No hedge, except for the elect.

then all of the Saints have been under God's wrath since Genesis.
Till The Lord's Death,burial and Ressurection.
Thats why the sacrificial system was good temporarily.
Now men have a mediator

So YES! and No!
Orge is a building wrath, like a blister, can pop at anytime...

I/E The Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about, Egypt.

God Bless....
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
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#48
If you're really wanting to understand the pre-trib perspective on this point (even if you end up not agreeing), I'm pre-trib, and will (as I have in the past) address this by saying:

--"our Rapture" is NOT for the PURPOSE of "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" taking place UP THERE (in Heaven) while the Trib years unfold upon the earth (NO);

--"the wedding FEAST /SUPPER" *IS* the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (at the very least, its inauguration [celebration / festivities]... that is, it is COMMENCING upon His Second Coming to the earth, i.e. His "RETURN" to the earth [Rev19]; see Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347; see also Matt8:11 and its parallel, etc]);

--we ("the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" to/for/of whom "Rapture [/caught up / snatch / harpazo]" SOLELY pertains, will be returning "WITH [G4862] Him" at that point (Rev19), Col3:4, etc;

--following "our Rapture," many more people will be coming to faith in Christ (IN / DURING / WITHIN the Trib years)--These are the "guests [plural]," the "5 [wise] Virgins [plural]," the "servants [plural]" of that time-period, AS WELL as the ones who it will be (at that time) that are DOING the "INVITING OF" the guests TO "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER [i.e. earthly MK age], aka the believing remnant of Jews/Israel who will be DOING the "INVITATION" msg (Matt24:14, 26:13... ; Matt25:40,45 "the least of these My brethren"; Matt22:9-14; etc etc);

It is not accurate to say that the "pre-trib" view says there will be NO SAINTS existing on the earth in / during / within the "7 yr period" (commonly called the Tribulation period)... it's that they will have come to faith in Christ FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (Paul is telling of the two CONTRASTING beliefs ppl WILL BE coming to, during that future specific LIMITED time period leading up to Christ's "return" to the earth; and many passages in the gospels accounts show their entering into the earthly MK age, variously called "the age [singular] to come," "the kingdom OF THE heavenS," "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER," the "MEAL [G347]," and regarding the "BLESSED" [in 8-10 passages, such as Dan12:12, for one, and Matt25:31-34 for another example], etc etc...)

--NO "SAINT" will be missing from "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, aka "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER / FESTIVITIES"... it is located ON THE EARTH, commencing upon His "RETURN" TO the earth (Rev19--NOT at the time of "our Rapture" nor ITS location and its own purposes, see...)



Hope that helps you see the pre-trib perspective on that point. = )
Thank you for your view and explanation. And yes, I know and I never said the rapture is for the purpose of the wedding feast. In fact, I never even thought of it that way. Secondly, please read the first paragraph from the Lion and Lamb ministries.

https://christinprophecy.org/articl...MIj9bJ9pmV8wIVRT2tBh0RVgsLEAAYAiAAEgLZP_D_BwE

He seems to be saying there are three "feast" and the first one is in heaven after the rapture. Here's another take:

According to Revelation 19:7, the bride, (which is made up of the corporate and collected members throughout the church age taken to heaven at the rapture), makes herself ready for an impending event. How is the bride or the church made ready? She is made ready by clothing “herself in the fine linen bright and clean,” which is said to be “the righteous acts of the saints.” This statement means that by this point in history (right before the second coming), the sum total of the bride, the body of Christ, is in heaven and has already gone through the bema judgment where church age believers are to be evaluated for their faithfulness to Christ during this present age (Rom. 14:10; 2 Cor. 5:10). The result of going through the judgment seat of Christ results in the bride being given fine linen that Revelation 19:8 says, “is the righteous acts of the saints.” This is how “His bride has made herself ready.” Ready for what? She has made herself ready for the marriage of the Lamb. Thus, within the framework of the symbolism being used in this passage, it means that the marriage (marriage ceremony) takes place right before the second coming. Later, Revelation 19:14 says, “And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.” Thus, having been newly married to the Lamb, the bride begins her role in history of reigning at the right hand of Christ (Rev. 3:21) by accompanying her new husband in the heavenly accent from heaven on white horses in order to participate in the judgment of Armageddon at the second advent. Arnold Fruchtenbaum further explains as follows:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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#49
Thank you for your view and explanation. And yes, I know and I never said the rapture is for the purpose of the wedding feast. In fact, I never even thought of it that way.
No, not you personally, but I thought you were suggesting that this is how "pre-trib viewpoint" understands it. It isn't (however, I accept that SOME pre-tribbers DO view it that way, as in your example at the link you provided, plus likely also the writer of the paragraph you also provided at the bottom of your post)

Secondly, please read the first paragraph from the Lion and Lamb ministries.

https://christinprophecy.org/articl...MIj9bJ9pmV8wIVRT2tBh0RVgsLEAAYAiAAEgLZP_D_BwE

He seems to be saying there are three "feast" and the first one is in heaven after the rapture.
I agree on one point... that "the supper of the great God" (v.17) is NOT "the wedding feast of the Lamb".

I disagree with his take on "the wedding feast" being up in Heaven (I also disagree on his other viewpoint, elsewhere, that believers can lose of forfeit salvation [however he expresses it, I'm not sure exactly], but that's another subject :D )... but I dislike how he only uses one or maybe two passages to supposedly show where we are deriving our viewpoint that the wedding feast/supper will take place on the earth, when actually there are quite a few more than just those two!! :D

I've gone over these points extensively in other past posts, so I don't want to muddy up this post with all that detail (if I can help it :D )... but a few points to just touch on, to reiterate:

--"so shall we ever be WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] the Lord"... takes place at the time of "our Rapture," as I see it (IOW, the "marriage" doesn't wait till the end of the 7-yrs [while we wait UP THERE] for it to occur just before His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19);

--Rev19:7 (pertaining to the "MARRIAGE" and the "Bride / Wife [SINGULAR]") is DISTINCT FROM Rev19:9 (pertaining to the INVITED "guests [PLURAL]"--whom the passage only states of them, "HAVING BEEN INVITED [perfect participle]"... the "INVITING" took place all throughout the 7 Trib yrs on the earth [not "by US"--as we won't be located on the earth!]... and the ones having been "INVITED" [i.e. TO the MK age] are said to be "BLESSED"--which corresponds with about 8 other "BLESSED" passages speaking of those "saints" having come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture" [all thru the Trib yrs--per the "INVITATION" going out then] and who are "still-living" to ENTER the earthly MK age [aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER"] upon His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19);

--Rev19 says, "the marriage CAME" and the "bride PREPARED"--I don't believe either of these are saying the marriage only just now occurred and she only just now finished preparing... for example, the same "CAME" word is found in both 6:17 and 11:18 and I do not believe those are speaking of the same point in time in the chronology, nor are they saying "is just now arriving" (rather, "came"--especially since, as I've heard Grk grammarians say in the case of 11:18 that the verbs in the sentence should follow [/correspond with] the leading verb in the sentence which in v.17 was saying "YOU HAVE TAKEN [perfect indicative (i.e. timing-related)] Your great power" and reigned...);

And again, I believe the already-wed Bridegroom WITH His already-wed Bride/Wife [SINGULAR] will now (Rev19; Col3:4) be HEADING BACK DOWN to the earth FOR "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" (kick-off / inauguration of the earthly MK age), where all the passages related to THAT are next in the chronology / sequence... and where NONE of those folks talked about in those passages (even the "saints / righteous / blessed"--having come to faith in Christ FOLLOWING "our Rapture") are (EVER) "lifting off the earth" (i.e. raptured). NO!
Ex. Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 (parallel Matt24:42-51) "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (i.e. as an ALREADY-WED "Bridegroom"!)... THEN "the meal [G347]" (located on the earth, to where He's RETURNING, at that point--and where THOSE folks in that passage [and many others] ARE LOCATED also)

Here's another take:

According to Revelation 19:7, the bride, (which is made up of the corporate and collected members throughout the church age taken to heaven at the rapture), makes herself ready for an impending event. How is the bride or the church made ready? She is made ready by clothing “herself in the fine linen bright and clean,” which is said to be “the righteous acts of the saints.” This statement means that by this point in history (right before the second coming), the sum total of the bride, the body of Christ, is in heaven and has already gone through the bema judgment where church age believers are to be evaluated for their faithfulness to Christ during this present age (Rom. 14:10; 2 Cor. 5:10). The result of going through the judgment seat of Christ results in the bride being given fine linen that Revelation 19:8 says, “is the righteous acts of the saints.” This is how “His bride has made herself ready.” Ready for what? She has made herself ready for the marriage of the Lamb. Thus, within the framework of the symbolism being used in this passage, it means that the marriage (marriage ceremony) takes place right before the second coming. Later, Revelation 19:14 says, “And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.” Thus, having been newly married to the Lamb, the bride begins her role in history of reigning at the right hand of Christ (Rev. 3:21) by accompanying her new husband in the heavenly accent from heaven on white horses in order to participate in the judgment of Armageddon at the second advent. Arnold Fruchtenbaum further explains as follows:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
The way I see it, the BEMA has already been concluded when we see that the "24 elders" are wearing "stephanous / crowns" (Paul had said "awarded IN THAT DAY" and not to him only, 2Tim4:8--not the day he would DIE)... and that a searching judgment has already been concluded, as indicated by the word "WAS FOUND" in Rev5:4.


And now I've yacked FAR TOO LONG. :D
 
Aug 2, 2021
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#50
Then what do you do with these verses?

15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”
16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

Timing here has nothing with the Lord returning at the end of the Tribulation
by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

The LORD said: by no means will the error of pre-trib take place, for the Dead in Christ RISE FIRST

The LORD said: And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”
Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

The LORD said: Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete.
This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

The LORD said no rapture until AFTER the Resurrection at His COMING.

Now, the question is do you want to please men or God?

For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. Galatians 1:10
 
Aug 2, 2021
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#51
Thank you for your view and explanation. And yes, I know and I never said the rapture is for the purpose of the wedding feast. In fact, I never even thought of it that way. Secondly, please read the first paragraph from the Lion and Lamb ministries.

https://christinprophecy.org/articl...MIj9bJ9pmV8wIVRT2tBh0RVgsLEAAYAiAAEgLZP_D_BwE

He seems to be saying there are three "feast" and the first one is in heaven after the rapture. Here's another take:

According to Revelation 19:7, the bride, (which is made up of the corporate and collected members throughout the church age taken to heaven at the rapture), makes herself ready for an impending event. How is the bride or the church made ready? She is made ready by clothing “herself in the fine linen bright and clean,” which is said to be “the righteous acts of the saints.” This statement means that by this point in history (right before the second coming), the sum total of the bride, the body of Christ, is in heaven and has already gone through the bema judgment where church age believers are to be evaluated for their faithfulness to Christ during this present age (Rom. 14:10; 2 Cor. 5:10). The result of going through the judgment seat of Christ results in the bride being given fine linen that Revelation 19:8 says, “is the righteous acts of the saints.” This is how “His bride has made herself ready.” Ready for what? She has made herself ready for the marriage of the Lamb. Thus, within the framework of the symbolism being used in this passage, it means that the marriage (marriage ceremony) takes place right before the second coming. Later, Revelation 19:14 says, “And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.” Thus, having been newly married to the Lamb, the bride begins her role in history of reigning at the right hand of Christ (Rev. 3:21) by accompanying her new husband in the heavenly accent from heaven on white horses in order to participate in the judgment of Armageddon at the second advent. Arnold Fruchtenbaum further explains as follows:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Revelation 19 does not say the Bride of Christ
Here's another question I like to ask the pre-tribers? Look at what the Apostle John says at 1 John 2:18. "Children, it is the last hour and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrist have arisen; from this we know that it is the las hour."

Why does John tell the believers to look out for the antichrist if nobody is going to be around? And what did Jesus say at Matthew 24:15? "Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, (let the reader understand) vs16, then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains." In other words, "Get out of Dodge."

Read what else Jesus says from Matthew 24:17-31. This is tribulation times, not a rapture, verse 31. Perfectly consistent with what Paul and John stated.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Dear Brother bluto, i have two questions for you -
1.) who is permitted/qualified to be a member/part of the Bride of Christ?
2.) where is the Bride of Christ right now?
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
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#52
by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

The LORD said: by no means will the error of pre-trib take place, for the Dead in Christ RISE FIRST

The LORD said: And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”
Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.


The LORD said: Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete.
This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

The LORD said no rapture until AFTER the Resurrection at His COMING.

Now, the question is do you want to please men or God?

For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. Galatians 1:10
Nope.

I just addressed that in Post #1079:

https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4657592
 
Mar 4, 2020
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#53
Here is what I posted in the last thread. The question of it remains.
A common mistake in eschatology is conflating the Day of the Lord (God's wrath) with the great tribulation.

The great tribulation is not God's doing, it's through the working of Satan, the anti-Christ, and false prophet. The GT is Satan's wrath.

The day of the Lord is God's wrath. The DOTL is after Christ raptures the church after the great tribulation. God will punish the wicked world.
 
Aug 2, 2021
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#54
lol, and who are you to change Scripture? The serpent twisted God's words.

The Scripture speaks for Itself - this proves your error as you seek to impose your will over God's will and words.

Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands.
And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete.
This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Not one word of God did i change, add to or take away here - you are in desperate need of repentance.

by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Not one word of God did i change, add to or take away here - you are in desperate need of repentance.

The Dead in Christ RISE FIRST at HIS COMING - no rapture until this FIRST takes place = the word of the LORD.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
9,385
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#55
Hi! Good Morning!


satan has nothing...cant do squat. Unless Yahweh allows it.
I.E Job, Hedge of protection, Holy Spirit, Who is God in His people....satan has NOTHING.

..and Yahweh's judgement is not Yahweh's wrath/His orgē / His indignation.
The Great Tribulation is His wrath in full effect.

If Ive learned anything, The Hebrew is picturesque , The Greek is PRECISE...


Be Blessed.....
Hello good evening,

True, Satan can't do anything unless God allows it.
Which is why the saints are warned to be patient specifically during the time the man of sin has been given authority.


The 7 bowls or phials of God's wrath aren't [orgē] wrath. They are [thumos] wrath. Thumos is translated many times as anger.
He gives Babylon both orgē [wrath] & thumos [wrath] - The cup of wrath filled with his anger.


Jesus has orgē in Rev 19 were he is described as treading the winepress.
"treading the winepress of the furious wrath of God" [thumos & orge wrath]


The often quoted "we are not appointed to wrath" from:
1 Thess 5:9
For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Wrath here is [orgēn].


It's a very interesting study. I have it on a word document somewhere.
The bowls of thumos [wrath] are declared finished just before the orgē [wrath] is delivered full strength.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
2,112
113
#56
^ To me, that would not explain why, in the "70ad events" referred to in both Luke 21:23[20] and Matt22:7, that the word "orge [G3709]" [or G3710, the verb] is used (well-before the "far-future" 7-yr period will take place, in which the "7 Vials" will unfold):

-- https://biblehub.com/text/luke/21-23.htm

-- https://biblehub.com/text/matthew/22-7.htm

IOW, His "orge / wrath" is not reserved only for the "far-future" trib years (thus, not merely / only what follows the "7th Vial," as you say).




I've pointed out some "connections" in past posts (things that connect with Seal #1, Seal #2... ['orge']), for example.



____________

Question: would you equate His "orge / wrath" with His "vengeance"?
 
O

Omegatime

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#57
by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

The LORD said: by no means will the error of pre-trib take place, for the Dead in Christ RISE FIRST

The LORD said: And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”
Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.


The LORD said: Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete.
This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

The LORD said no rapture until AFTER the Resurrection at His COMING.

Now, the question is do you want to please men or God?

For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. Galatians 1:10
Timing is everything. I understand that you say the resurrection is at the end of the tribulation of seven years. How about those that survive and enter the 1000 year kingdom in the flesh? And also when is the sheep/goat judgement in your opinion?
 
Aug 2, 2021
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#58
Timing is everything. I understand that you say the resurrection is at the end of the tribulation of seven years. How about those that survive and enter the 1000 year kingdom in the flesh? And also when is the sheep/goat judgement in your opinion?
i always seek to remove myself from Scripture, if i have an opinion i will state IMHO or i think or something to that effect.

i have found in my 37 years of walking with the Lord and visiting my brethren in many different churches and academia that there is a lack of the fear of God when teaching and preaching.
This comes from what the Apostle Paul said in Acts 20
And indeed, now I know that you all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, will see my face no more. Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

Whenever we seek Truth from Scripture there is a IRREVOCABLE Commandment that MUST be followed. If we fail to this it leads to opinions, confusion and the worse - heresy.

Deuteronomy 4: 1-2 Now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the judgments which I teach you to observe, that you may live, and go in and possess the land which the Lord God of your fathers is giving you.
You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

Proverbs 30: 5-6
Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

Revelation 22: 18 -19
For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
 
Aug 2, 2021
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#59
Agreed!


I disagree with this statement.
Apollyon is not satan.


He withdraws Holy Spirit/ministry changes. No hedge, except for the elect.


Till The Lord's Death,burial and Ressurection.
Thats why the sacrificial system was good temporarily.
Now men have a mediator

So YES! and No!
Orge is a building wrath, like a blister, can pop at anytime...

I/E The Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about, Egypt.

God Bless....
Apollyon is inseparable from Satan in this eternal aspect- they joined themselves together with the angels who rebelled against God and there is no room for repentance for them. They are locked in for Judgment and Destruction.

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

When you said He withdraws the Holy Spirit - i assume you are referring to 2 Thessalonians ch 2
"He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. "

Is this what you are referencing in "the Holy Spirit withdraws/ministry changes" - Yes/No ???
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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#60
Follow-up @Lucy-Pevensie , or whoever else might want to address this:

Question: would you equate His "orge / wrath" with His "vengeance"?


... for example, Romans 12:19 saying, "Dearly beloved, avenge [G1556] not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath [G3709 - orge]: for it is written, Vengeance [G1557] is mine; I will repay [G467 - same word as in 2Th1:6 as I had mentioned (*as during a TIME PERIOD)], saith the Lord."

-- https://biblehub.com/text/romans/12-19.htm




[*same persons and same TIME PERIOD that 2Th2:9b,10-12 also refers to, that is, when the "man of sin" will ALSO be existing on the earth, doing ALL he is slated to DO... over the course of SOME TIME]