How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[GaryA]

Can we all please agree that we have nailed down the identity of the 24 elders?

No.

Can we please now move on DavidTree, GaryA (and others)?

No.

 

[cv5]

12 + 12 = 24

The 12 Patriarchs and the 12 Apostles are the 24 Elders of Revelation.

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Matt 19:28

Once again, our Lord Jesus give us clear understanding from His words that we are to follow - not from man/religion.

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. Proverbs 30: 5-6

An absolutely ridiculous conclusion.

 

[cv5]

Thanks, i've been looking into the subject in detail for the past few weeks and i've come to the same conclusion. It seems really obvious to me now, has helped resolve any doubts and strengthened my faith and understanding. What a blessing !

Thanks for your encouraging reply. Such is the result of careful dedicated scholarship. Just take a look at this thread. Once again the pre-trib rapture stands out as the most obvious clear and compelling case imaginable. The alternative views are holding an empty bag.

 

[cv5]

Yes way - it is literal and not symbolic.


The 'group' you refer to is the "wider" scope - the larger group that the 24 belong to.


It is the larger group mentioned above that is the same group of people.

Just as John - being a single individual belonging to the larger group - about which he speaks --- in the same manner, the 24 - all belonging to the larger group - about which they speak...

I don't think I've ever encountered a poster who is more wrong more often than you. I mean you are literally batting zero buddy. Zero. I honestly did not think that someone who regularly reads their Bible could be that wrong that often.

 

[cv5]

No.


No.

You'll have to figure out whether willful rebellion or willful ignorance is your problem. And I thank God that it's not my problem.

 

[GaryA]

You'll have to figure out whether willful rebellion or willful ignorance is your problem. And I thank God that it's not my problem.

Would you agree to agree to something that you did not agree with?

 

[cv5]

Would you agree to agree to something that you did not agree with?

As I have seen so many times on Christian chat, you start with preterism you end up in the weeds.
I have yet to be edified by one single solitary word or statement that you have ever produced.

That is the devastating awful truth buddy I hate to say it.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

There is a very sound argument to be made in favor of "departure". As for me....I completely agree with that application. The term apostasy does not fit anywhere in both books written to the Thessalonians. IMO the context demands "departure", to which fully half a dozen early bible translations agree.

We are not having that same fruitless discussion again. ((How many times!!? ))
Most pretrib believers don't even agree with those conclusions. It's a completely unorthodox view.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

This disproves such a notion:

Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

One of the literal 24 elders came to speak to John.

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Here again only one of 24 speaks to and he speaks about the great multitude of people who came out of great tribulation which further disproves Pretribs idea idea of saved people not being here for great tribulation.

Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

These literal 24 elders also have seats they sit on. This isn't symbolic of a large number of people. The church is not composed of all elders. Elders are higher authority within the church.

Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
Rev 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
Rev 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

Here we see the 24 elders separated from another group of "much people" which further shows 24 elders are not a l;arger group of people but actually 24 elders as it says.

Good points. And interesting.

I have to agree the fact that they hold the title 'Elders' and are administering services very close to the centre
of the throne room and already wear crowns is too significant to overlook.
In Revelation Jesus & John were constantly dropping scriptural clues for us to look up.

There were 24 preists- descendants of Aaron selected for temple service when David passed the kingship to Solomon.
They are named & numbered in 1 Chronicles 24. It wasn't the entire Levitical Preisthood but 24 selected from them.

1 Chr 24:19
"This was their appointed order of ministering when they entered the temple of the Lord, according to the regulations
prescribed for them by their ancestor Aaron, as the Lord, the God of Israel, had commanded him"

Rev 4:4
Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders.
They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.

There seems to be a parallell of special service in the inner sanctuary.

24 appointed priests commanded by God for the temple on Earth.
24 Elders from all nations serve at the throne room in Heaven.

 

[cv5]

We are not having that same fruitless discussion again. ((How many times!!? ))
Most pretrib believers don't even agree with those conclusions. It's a completely unorthodox view.

I am all in on "the departure". I preach it everywhere I go.....

 

[cv5]

I just conducted a comprehensive word study on the greek terms "wait" and "waiting" as regards the Saints and their anticipation of the Savior.

It is never stated nor implied nor is there in the slightest nuance or indication of any fear of judgment wrath pain or punishment.

There is only the anticipation of deliverance FROM wrath TO salvation.

 

[cv5]

Rev 3 Jesus promises heaven, thrones, white robes and crowns to the overcomers.

Rev 4:4 the 24 Elders ARE in heaven (following the Lamb whithersoever he goeth) clothed in white robes with crowns sitting on thrones.

Rev 5:9 the Elders describe themselves as being redeemed by the blood of the Lamb out of every kindred tongue people and nation (this eliminates the patriarchs and Apostles theory.....all of whom were exclusively Israelites).

Yet people are confused as to the identity of this representative group? Well I for one am not the least bit confused. Debunking the 12+12 theory had clarified this issue even that much more.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Here again only one of 24 speaks to and he speaks about the great multitude of people who came out of great tribulation which further disproves Pretribs idea idea of saved people not being here for great tribulation.

It is not correct to say that the "pre-trib" viewpoint is that there are no saved people existing on the earth during the great tribulation (or even during the entire 7-year tribulation, as it is commonly called... except perhaps the first few seconds of it [immediately FOLLOWING "our Rapture"]);

I've repeatedly stated that MANY MORE ppl will be coming to faith in Christ FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (THAT is ALSO the viewpoint "pre-trib" has--tho those folks are not "RAPTURED [IN THE AIR]")... Some of them will DIE during the Trib years; Some will make it alive clear through to the end of the Trib years and there are about 8-10 "BLESSED" passages that speak in particular about THOSE very ones: still-living / still-alive saints at the END of the Trib, who will ENTER the EARTHLY MK age in their mortal bodies (capable of reproducing / bearing children)... whereas the ones who DIE in the Trib will be "resurrected [definition: 'to stand again [on the earth]']" FOR the MK (Rev20:4b, for example--referring to the ones who will have DIED during those yrs).


I just made a post yesterday, over in a different thread, addressing some of these points:

Post #35 - https://christianchat.com/threads/t...nd-the-first-resurrection.201520/post-4657300







[notice Peter's talking about "the Day of the Lord" (which is NOT merely "a singular 24-hr day," but a VERY LONG spans of time)... and one of the OT verses he draws from, as you may recall my pointing out, is a verse FROM the CONTEXT of both CHPTS of Isaiah 34-35 (covering a PERIOD OF TIME, not merely "a singular 24-hr day"--tho ppl reading 2Pet3:10-12 insist that's what he saying, INCORRECTLY so, however)... See if you can detect a verse in the context of, say, even just chpt 34 of Isaiah, which provides indication that children / offspring WILL INDEED be being born DURING the MK age following Christ's Second Coming to the earth (Rev19)--Peter is referencing a TIME PERIOD which commences WELL-BEFORE that point (i.e. 7-yr Trib) and extends WELL-BEYOND that point in time (i.e. the promised and prophesied EARTHLY MK age)--not merely a singular point in time, nor merely "a singular 24-hr day" kind of "day"... in his "IN WHICH" phrasing (2Pet3:10-12), etc...]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

it is perfectly reasonable to accept that these "24" are at least "representative" of a vast crowd [BODY] of people (i.e. the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" made up of both Jew and Gentile, but considered neither in our standing before God "IN Christ"--that is, ALL those having come to faith in Christ "in this present age [singular]"--Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]

Just wanted to clarify... when I say "representative," I mean that the "24 elders" are SPEAKING on behalf of the ENTIRE "Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" who has also been raptured and rewarded in the "BEMA" (IOW, the "24" are not the ONLY ONES present in Heaven, as tho only "24 ppl" make up "the Church which is His body," and no more than 24 ppl were SAVED "in this present age," NO)... when they say the words "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out-of EVERY..." (Rev5:9)... I'm not denying that these "24 elders" are in this scene of the throne room [courtroom-like setting--per the description of the One on the throne in 4:3--"like a jasper and a sardine stone"], not at all denying that! Just to be clear!

 

[cv5]

This disproves such a notion:

Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

One of the literal 24 elders came to speak to John.

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Here again only one of 24 speaks to and he speaks about the great multitude of people who came out of great tribulation which further disproves Pretribs idea idea of saved people not being here for great tribulation.

Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

These literal 24 elders also have seats they sit on. This isn't symbolic of a large number of people. The church is not composed of all elders. Elders are higher authority within the church.

Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
Rev 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
Rev 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

Here we see the 24 elders separated from another group of "much people" which further shows 24 elders are not a l;arger group of people but actually 24 elders as it says.

The concept and fact of "tribulation saints" is very clearly laid out in Scripture. It's beyond dispute is far as I am concerned.

So who exactly do you think are these 24 Elders? The 12+12 theory has already been stricken down. Revelation ch 7 makes it clear that they are an unique group not to be confused with any other.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[EDIT to ADD to my last post] Again, the "FOUR living creatures" a DESCRIBED in the same way that the "4-directional plotment of Israel" was, in the OT... but I'm not suggesting that this means that "Israel" is up in Heaven in this scene, by saying this. So they are "representative" also (of ISRAEL), but in a different sense (in the sense of their involvement of what is getting ready to UNFOLD upon the EARTH, in that context)... so perhaps the "24 elders" are representative of the WHOLE of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (similarly) as present up in Heaven

 

[cv5]

It is not correct to say that the "pre-trib" viewpoint is that there are no saved people existing on the earth during the great tribulation (or even during the entire 7-year tribulation, as it is commonly called... except perhaps the first few seconds of it [immediately FOLLOWING "our Rapture"]);

I've repeatedly stated that MANY MORE ppl will be coming to faith in Christ FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (THAT is ALSO the viewpoint "pre-trib" has--tho those folks are not "RAPTURED [IN THE AIR]")... Some of them will DIE during the Trib years; Some will make it alive clear through to the end of the Trib years and there are about 8-10 "BLESSED" passages that speak in particular about THOSE very ones: still-living / still-alive saints at the END of the Trib, who will ENTER the EARTHLY MK age in their mortal bodies (capable of reproducing / bearing children)... whereas the ones who DIE in the Trib will be "resurrected [definition: 'to stand again [on the earth]']" FOR the MK (Rev20:4b, for example--referring to the ones who will have DIED during those yrs).


I just made a post yesterday, over in a different thread, addressing some of these points:

Post #35 - https://christianchat.com/threads/t...nd-the-first-resurrection.201520/post-4657300







[notice Peter's talking about "the Day of the Lord" (which is NOT merely "a singular 24-hr day," but a VERY LONG spans of time)... and one of the OT verses he draws from, as you may recall my pointing out, is a verse FROM the CONTEXT of both CHPTS of Isaiah 34-35 (covering a PERIOD OF TIME, not merely "a singular 24-hr day"--tho ppl reading 2Pet3:10-12 insist that's what he saying, INCORRECTLY so, however)... See if you can detect a verse in the context of, say, even just chpt 34 of Isaiah, which provides indication that children / offspring WILL INDEED be being born DURING the MK age following Christ's Second Coming to the earth (Rev19)--Peter is referencing a TIME PERIOD which commences WELL-BEFORE that point (i.e. 7-yr Trib) and extends WELL-BEYOND that point in time (i.e. the promised and prophesied EARTHLY MK age)--not merely a singular point in time, nor merely "a singular 24-hr day" kind of "day"... in his "IN WHICH" phrasing (2Pet3:10-12), etc...]

Again, 2 Pet ch 2 & 3 carries the sentiment that the day of Gods judgment will affect scoffers, false teachers, and apostates who will perish. There is nothing to indicate that the righteous will suffer this same wrath.

It is inconceivable that a just God who changes not will defy his own nature and allow the righteous to suffer unjust judgment. The biblical pattern is exceedingly clear in this matter.

To postulate that the redeemed, justified Church would ever sufferer or experience God's wrath and judgment is Biblically unsupportable.

 

[DavidTree]

Rev 3 Jesus promises heaven, thrones, white robes and crowns to the overcomers.

Rev 4:4 the 24 Elders ARE in heaven (following the Lamb whithersoever he goeth) clothed in white robes with crowns sitting on thrones.

Rev 5:9 the Elders describe themselves as being redeemed by the blood of the Lamb out of every kindred tongue people and nation (this eliminates the patriarchs and Apostles theory.....all of whom were exclusively Israelites).

Yet people are confused as to the identity of this representative group? Well I for one am not the least bit confused. Debunking the 12+12 theory had clarified this issue even that much more.

i notice that you like to attach to Scripture 'your truth' as opposed to being obedient to Christ.

by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

The LORD said: by no means will your error of pre-trib take place, for the Dead in Christ RISE FIRST
The LORD said:
And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”
Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

The LORD said:
Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete.
This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

The LORD said no rapture until AFTER the Resurrection at His COMING.

You need repentance as you are divise and speak and teach error.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The LORD said: by no means will your error of pre-trib take place, for the Dead in Christ RISE FIRST

Pre-tribbers do not disgree that "the dead IN Christ" will be resurrected from the dead / out of their graves BEFORE the "rapture / SNATCH" occurs (for ALL members of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"--Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence])

The LORD said:
Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete.
This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

The LORD said no rapture until AFTER the Resurrection at His COMING.

No He did not say that.

You are not perceiving the phrase "the resurrection the first [adjective]" correctly.

YOU are the one making it say [/mean] "this is the first time saints will have been resurrected". It doesn't say [or mean] that.


The saints being resurrected in 20:4b are simply the last saints to have DIED [/been martyred--they are killed in the SECOND HALF] before the earthly MK commences upon Christ's "RETURN" to the earth Rev19. They are said to be "having A PART IN the resurrection the first [adjective]"... they are NOT said to be the first to have been resurrected!

The "2W" will have been resurrected from the dead (and ascend up to Heaven) at the "6th Trumpet / 2nd Woe" at a time-slot DISTINCT from when other saints will be resurrected. Your misunderstanding and misinterpretation of the adjective ('first') in 20:5&6 is blinding you to this fact... and renders your viewpoint unable to explain this blaring discrepancy.

You need repentance as you are divise and speak and teach error.

Carefully examine your own viewpoint... as some of us can readily detect its flaws, and that are oft-repeated in many books and youtube videos out there, but that are not biblically accurate.





[you're tracked, see... ... believe that. ]

 

[DavidTree]

Pre-tribbers do not disgree that "the dead IN Christ" will be resurrected from the dead / out of their graves BEFORE the "rapture / SNATCH" occurs (for ALL members of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"--Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence])




No He did not say that.

You are not perceiving the phrase "the resurrection the first [adjective]" correctly.

YOU are the one making it say [/mean] "this is the first time saints will have been resurrected". It doesn't say [or mean] that.


The saints being resurrected in 20:4b are simply the last saints to have DIED [/been martyred--they are killed in the SECOND HALF] before the earthly MK commences upon Christ's "RETURN" to the earth Rev19. They are said to be "having A PART IN the resurrection the first [adjective]"... they are NOT said to be the first to have been resurrected!

The "2W" will have been resurrected from the dead (and ascend up to Heaven) at the "6th Trumpet / 2nd Woe" at a time-slot DISTINCT from when other saints will be resurrected. Your misunderstanding and misinterpretation of the adjective ('first') in 20:5&6 is blinding you to this fact... and renders your viewpoint unable to explain this blaring discrepancy.




Carefully examine your own viewpoint... as some of us can readily detect its flaws, and that are oft-repeated in many books and youtube videos out there, but that are not biblically accurate.





[you're tracked, see... ... believe that. ]

But you have no evidence of such accusations.

The only ones adding to and taking away from God's words are you Mr. Twister, CV5 and those who worship the idol of pre-trib.

All of our words are being recorded and will be judged before Christ when HE, who is the Word will compare our words to His.

I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book. Rev 22

Judgment is Coming, everyone better watch their words and prepare their hearts.

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.