Do not let your hearts be troubled.

[Evmur]

Hello Evmur,

Yes, we have already established this and I am in agreement with you in that, believers from the on-set of the church till this present day are experiencing tribulations. God's wrath/tribulation comes after the church is gathered which is what believers are not appointed to suffer and which is what Jesus is referring to when He says, "Let not your hearts be troubled." Because the gathering of the church is going to take place prior to that time of trouble/wrath. So, when I speak about tribulation, I'm speaking about God's time period of wrath, the tribulation period, where all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will take place.

Yes I know, we do have much agreement. I'm just digging at your ribs because we have a slight disagreement in that the GREAT tribulation is a singular time and event to be distinguished from the usual tribulation that we have. It's alluded to in scripture as a time of trouble such as never was since the world began nor shall be again.

In Jeremiah it is alluded to as the time of Jacob's trouble "alas for that day is so great there is none like it, it even the time of Jacob's trouble"

It is the time of persecution Jesus warns us of.

God's wrath we shall escape, but the Trib we go through.

 

[Nehemiah6]

First, consider that Jesus had yet to be crucified and killed. So, His ‘coming back’ refers to when He next appeared to the disciples after He was resurrected not during His triumphant return. Secondly, we need to look at the meaning of ‘prepare a place’. Does this not speak about enough rooms in heaven to house the righteous? Nope. Let’s backtrack first and look at the ‘place’ and then we’ll continue to look at the rest of the chapter.

This is completely false and an effort to PERVERT the plain meaning of Scripture.

1. Did Christ take His apostles to Heaven after His resurrection and at His ascension? Absolutely NOT. Indeed He told them to tarry in Jerusalem for the coming of the Holy Ghost. And prior to that He remained on earth for 40 days. That was not a "coming back" but a prelude to His ascension!

2. Where is God the Father and where is His throne? Is it not in the third Heaven, the Heaven of God and all His holy angels? Absolutely. So when Christ said "in my Father's house are many mansions" (not niggardly "rooms") He meant exactly what He said, and said exactly what He meant. The New Jerusalem -- the eternal abode of the saints -- is indeed in Heaven. It is a huge cubic city which is 1500 cubic miles in dimensions. Larger than any continent. So if there are even a trillion mansions in that city, there is still plenty of room for more. And there can be no comparison between earthly mansions of brick and mortar and heavenly mansions made of gold and precious stones! And what Jesus promised is that He would "COME AGAIN" and take His people there with Him, since He is presently there. This can only refer to the Rapture.

3. We need to take careful note of Hebrews 12:22-24, which tells us who the present occupants in the New Jerusalem are: (1) God the Father the Judge of all, (2) Jesus the Mediator of the New Covenant, (3) all the countless holy angels, (4) all the OT saints since the resurrection of Christ, (5) all the NT saints since the ascension of Christ (starting with Stephen), and (6) the blood of Christ sprinkled on the Mercy Seat in the heavenly Sanctuary. And this is exactly where all the saints will be after the Rapture.

Getting back to "Let not your heart be troubled" does that not imply that there is no connection between any Tribulation period and the Rapture? Absolutely. Had Christ planned for the Church to go through the Tribulation, He would have said something to that effect. Instead the words He spoke to the church at Philadelphia would apply: Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

 

[Evmur]

View attachment 231215

Totally, tribulation always comes from man.

 

[DavidTree]

View attachment 231215

This is what awaits all who hold to the idolatry of pre-trib.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Hello Evmur,

Yes, we have already established this and I am in agreement with you in that, believers from the on-set of the church till this present day are experiencing tribulations. God's wrath/tribulation comes after the church is gathered which is what believers are not appointed to suffer and which is what Jesus is referring to when He says, "Let not your hearts be troubled." Because the gathering of the church is going to take place prior to that time of trouble/wrath. So, when I speak about tribulation, I'm speaking about God's time period of wrath, the tribulation period, where all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will take place.

Matthew 13:21 is speaking about the common trials and tribulation which come as a result of our faith.

Matthew 24:21 is speaking about the great tribulation, which is the time of God's wrath when the seals, trumpets and bowl judgements will be taking place leading up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. Believers within the church will not be on the earth during that time of God's tribulation.

“For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:21-24, 26, 28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you would know a lot brother of you would let go of things that you aren’t right about I can tell you have a ton of knowledge but somewhere you’ve gotten off track with the pre trib idea

other than hat one subject I find a ton and I mean a ton of awesome knowledge you share but your just misunderstanding the rapture

Jesus is preparing them dorectly to go through the tribulation and ensure and not turn away during that time he isn’t telling them they aren’t going through it

he’s preparing them for all that’s going to happen and giving them hope to endure it

This in mark is helpful

“For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. (Matt 24:21)

And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:19-27‬ ‭

his whole purpose is to get them ready to endure and give them hope for when it’s over hold on , endure , don’t be deceived I mean what I said I think you would be a good source of understanding but this subject you just have misunderstood and gotten off track somewhere

 

[DavidTree]

Matthew 13:21 is speaking about the common trials and tribulation which come as a result of our faith.

Matthew 24:21 is speaking about the great tribulation, which is the time of God's wrath when the seals, trumpets and bowl judgements will be taking place leading up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. Believers within the church will not be on the earth during that time of God's tribulation.

What bible do you read??? It must be missing these Holy Scriptures - Scripture cannot lie

And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.
It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.
And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

If anyone has an ear, let him hear. He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints
Revelation 13: 5-10

Then I wished to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its nails of bronze, which devoured, broke in pieces, and trampled the residue with its feet; and the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, before which three fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth which spoke pompous words, whose appearance was greater than his fellows.

“I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them,
until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.
Daniel 7: 20-21

He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.
Daniel 7: 25

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
2 Thessalonians 2

 

[Ahwatukee]

Yes I know, we do have much agreement. I'm just digging at your ribs because we have a slight disagreement in that the GREAT tribulation is a singular time and event to be distinguished from the usual tribulation that we have. It's alluded to in scripture as a time of trouble such as never was since the world began nor shall be again.

In Jeremiah it is alluded to as the time of Jacob's trouble "alas for that day is so great there is none like it, it even the time of Jacob's trouble"

It is the time of persecution Jesus warns us of.

God's wrath we shall escape, but the Trib we go through.

I'm in complete agreement with you in that, the great tribulation is that last 3 1/2 years of the seven year period, at the end of which is when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom. The entire seven years is the time of God's wrath/tribulation. I have never posted anything confusing the common tribulations which believers go through, vs. the seven years of God's tribulation and great tribulation.


The church is currently here experiencing the common on-gong trials and tribulation as a result of our faith.

Once the church is gathered, then God's tribulation will begin, with the last 3 1/2 years being the great tribulation

Church is gathered |-----------------------3 1/2 Years----------------------- SEVEN YEARS--------------------3 1/2 Years-----------------------|
-------------------------|-------------------------------------------------------ABOMINATION SET UP-----------Great Tribulation-------------------|
-------------------------|---------------------------SEALS---------------------------TRUMPETS--------------------------BOWLS------------------------|

I hope that we are on the same page now

 

[Ahwatukee]

“For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:21-24, 26, 28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you would know a lot brother of you would let go of things that you aren’t right about I can tell you have a ton of knowledge but somewhere you’ve gotten off track with the pre trib idea

other than hat one subject I find a ton and I mean a ton of awesome knowledge you share but your just misunderstanding the rapture

Jesus is preparing them dorectly to go through the tribulation and ensure and not turn away during that time he isn’t telling them they aren’t going through it

he’s preparing them for all that’s going to happen and giving them hope to endure it

This in mark is helpful

“For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. (Matt 24:21)

And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:19-27‬ ‭

his whole purpose is to get them ready to endure and give them hope for when it’s over hold on , endure , don’t be deceived I mean what I said I think you would be a good source of understanding but this subject you just have misunderstood and gotten off track somewhere

I have studied end-time events for many years, utilizing all related scriptures.

In order to come to a right conclusion, it is paramount in understanding that there is a difference between the Lord's appearing in the air to gather the church vs. The Lord's return to the earth to end the age. Most if not all of the scriptures that you posted above have to do with the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, when He establishes His millennial kingdom.

Revelation 19:6-8 shows the church/bride in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb and the bride receiving her fine linen, white and clean. Then in verse 14 we have the armies of heaven following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing the same fine linen that the bride received at the wedding. This shows the church following Christ out of heaven to the earth. That said, the bride/church would already have to be in heaven in order to follow the Lord out of heaven. In addition we have the following excerpt regarding the Lord's return to the earth at Armageddon:

"They (beast and ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb (at Armageddon), but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

So this scripture also demonstrates that the church the (called, chosen and faithful followers) will be with the Lord as He descends to the earth to end the age.

I'm not just putting this information out there off the cuff of my sleeve. I've gone over all of this information and looked at it from every angle and that in order to come to a right conclusion. I'm not just throwing out there. You on the other hand, have failed to recognize the difference between these two events.

I will also tell you that the word 'ekklesia' translated as 'church' is used 19 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and then disappears. This a clue that the Lord put in his word for those who diligently seek to understand these things and you would do well to listen to it and search it out.

I can't put the church in Matthew 24:15-31 because it is the time when the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be in process, which is God's direct wrath. That's the big barrier! That never changes! The church cannot and will not be on the earth during the time of God's wrath, which begins at the opening of the first seal. I will never change my position on this because the fact remains that Jesus took upon himself God's wrath which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Because of this believers within the church must be removed prior to the first seal being opened. In fact you will not find the word 'church' mentioned anywhere within the narrative of God's wrath.

Furthermore, Jesus tells us to always be on the watch for His appearing to gather us. He compares His coming like that a thief, where if the good man of the house knew at what time the thief was going to break in, he wait up for him so that his house could not be broken into. Regarding this, the Lord says that no one knows at what hour He will come, ergo the command to watch. In opposition, those who are looking for the church to be gathered after God's wrath when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, they are not looking for the imminent return of the Lord, because to them God's wrath must take place first. regarding this, according to scripture, the Lord will not return to the earth until after the 7th bowl has been poured out which completes God's wrath.

"The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!”

 

[Aaron56]

This is completely false and an effort to PERVERT the plain meaning of Scripture.

1. Did Christ take His apostles to Heaven after His resurrection and at His ascension? Absolutely NOT. Indeed He told them to tarry in Jerusalem for the coming of the Holy Ghost. And prior to that He remained on earth for 40 days. That was not a "coming back" but a prelude to His ascension!

2. Where is God the Father and where is His throne? Is it not in the third Heaven, the Heaven of God and all His holy angels? Absolutely. So when Christ said "in my Father's house are many mansions" (not niggardly "rooms") He meant exactly what He said, and said exactly what He meant. The New Jerusalem -- the eternal abode of the saints -- is indeed in Heaven. It is a huge cubic city which is 1500 cubic miles in dimensions. Larger than any continent. So if there are even a trillion mansions in that city, there is still plenty of room for more. And there can be no comparison between earthly mansions of brick and mortar and heavenly mansions made of gold and precious stones! And what Jesus promised is that He would "COME AGAIN" and take His people there with Him, since He is presently there. This can only refer to the Rapture.

3. We need to take careful note of Hebrews 12:22-24, which tells us who the present occupants in the New Jerusalem are: (1) God the Father the Judge of all, (2) Jesus the Mediator of the New Covenant, (3) all the countless holy angels, (4) all the OT saints since the resurrection of Christ, (5) all the NT saints since the ascension of Christ (starting with Stephen), and (6) the blood of Christ sprinkled on the Mercy Seat in the heavenly Sanctuary. And this is exactly where all the saints will be after the Rapture.

Getting back to "Let not your heart be troubled" does that not imply that there is no connection between any Tribulation period and the Rapture? Absolutely. Had Christ planned for the Church to go through the Tribulation, He would have said something to that effect. Instead the words He spoke to the church at Philadelphia would apply: Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

I’ve been patient with you. Now you’re ignored. The immature have no idea how the Lord will keep them during the tribulation so they imagine a way out.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I’ve been patient with you. Now you’re ignored. The immature have no idea how the Lord will keep them during the tribulation so they imagine a way out.

Rather, the the wise and mature (like Nehemiah) know, that because the Lord took upon himself God's wrath which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely, that God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer and will therefore not be on the earth during the time of God's wrath to experience the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. (Romans 5:9, Thess.1:10, 5:9)

Though the Lord said that believers in the church would suffer trials and tribulations as a result of our faith in Him, we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath. God's wrath is the barrier that the church cannot and will not cross and that by God's word.

 

[DavidTree]

Rather, the the wise and mature (like Nehemiah) know, that because the Lord took upon himself God's wrath which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely, that God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer and will therefore not be on the earth during the time of God's wrath to experience the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. (Romans 5:9, Thess.1:10, 5:9)

Though the Lord said that believers in the church would suffer trials and tribulations as a result of our faith in Him, we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath. God's wrath is the barrier that the church cannot and will not cross and that by God's word.

Everytime you speak to 'prove' your idol of pre-trib you add your words to Scripture and you take away from Scripture.

One simple FACT of Scripture is this: 1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18 the Dead in Christ Rise BEFORE the rapture.

The First Resurrection occurs in Revelation ch 20

Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete.
This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection!
The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

You and all who hold to the idolatry of pre-trib will find yourselves wishing you had not violated a clear commandment from the Lord.

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. Proverbs 30: 5-6

 

[Nehemiah6]

One simple FACT of Scripture is this: 1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18 the Dead in Christ Rise BEFORE the rapture.

Only momentarily. The Resurrection/Rapture is ONE SINGLE EVENT, with the Resurrection preceding the Rapture by nanoseconds. And the main harvest of the First Resurrection occurs LONG BEFORE the events of Revelation 20 (the gleanings).

 

[DavidTree]

Only momentarily. The Resurrection/Rapture is ONE SINGLE EVENT, with the Resurrection preceding the Rapture by nanoseconds. And the main harvest of the First Resurrection occurs LONG BEFORE the events of Revelation 20 (the gleanings).

Hi Brother,
Yes, the gleanings in Revelation chapter 14 - This is not the rapture.

And I looked and saw a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was One like the Son of Man, with a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand.
Then another angel came out of the temple, crying out in a loud voice to the One seated on the cloud, “Swing Your sickle and reap, because the time has come to harvest; for the crop of the earth is ripe.” So the One seated on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested. Revelation 14: 14-16

Jesus explained, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me and to finish His work.
Do you not say, ‘There are still four months until the harvest’?
I tell you, lift up your eyes and look at the fields, for they are ripe for harvest.

Already the reaper draws his wages and gathers a crop for eternal life, so that the sower and the reaper may rejoice together.
For in this case the saying ‘One sows and another reaps’ is true.
I sent you to reap what you have not worked for; others have done the hard work, and now you have taken up their labor.”
John 4: 34-38

Peace to you Nehemiah

 

[justbyfaith]

Just a question.

It seems to me that 1 Thessalonians 5:9 tells us that God has not appointed us to wrath, as believers in Christ.

And Zephaniah 1:14-15 and Luke 21:23 appear to be saying that the time of Great Tribulation is a time of God's wrath.

How, then, are we going to go through the Great Tribulation, as believers in Christ?

1Th 5:9, For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Zep 1:14, The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
Zep 1:15, That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

Luk 21:23, But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

 

[Aaron56]

How did this become another pre-trib thread?

Non-pre-tribbers, please ignore the pre-tribbers.

 

[DavidTree]

Just a question.

It seems to me that 1 Thessalonians 5:9 tells us that God has not appointed us to wrath, as believers in Christ.

And Zephaniah 1:14-15 and Luke 21:23 appear to be saying that the time of Great Tribulation is a time of God's wrath.

How, then, are we going to go through the Great Tribulation, as believers in Christ?

1Th 5:9, For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Zep 1:14, The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
Zep 1:15, That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

Luk 21:23, But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

Please repost your thoughts on this Bible Study forum: How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

 

[DavidTree]

Hi again!

Agreed!

But again,
What does it matter if our Lord and Savior said..... "I will take you to Myself, so that where I am you may be also."

Here, IT doesnt matter, as long as we are with Him....

God Bless!

It does matter to Christ for this is what all who cling to pre-trib will experience as found in His warnings:

At that time, if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There He is!’ do not believe it.
For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible. See, I have told you in advance.

So if they tell you, ‘There He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

the teaching of pre-trib is a false Christ and will lead to a great fall to those who place their trust in it.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:
‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’
At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Matt 24

There will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among the nations, bewildered by the roaring of the sea and the surging of the waves. Men will faint from fear and anxiety over what is coming upon the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
When these things begin to happen, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.” Luke 21

 

[Ahwatukee]

Just a question.

It seems to me that 1 Thessalonians 5:9 tells us that God has not appointed us to wrath, as believers in Christ.

And Zephaniah 1:14-15 and Luke 21:23 appear to be saying that the time of Great Tribulation is a time of God's wrath.

How, then, are we going to go through the Great Tribulation, as believers in Christ?

1Th 5:9, For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Zep 1:14, The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
Zep 1:15, That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

Luk 21:23, But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

Totally agree!

And

"Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him! " - Rom.5:9

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." - 1 Thess.1:10

Not only will the church not go through the great tribulation, which is the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period, but we will not be here for any of God's wrath which begins with the opening of the first seal.

 

[Mofastus]

John 14:1-14
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; a believe in Me as well. In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going.”

“Lord,” said Thomas, “we do not know where You are going, so how can we know the way?”

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.”

Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.”

Jesus replied, “Philip, I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own. Instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me, performing His works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me—or at least believe on account of the works themselves.

Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever believes in Me will also do the works that I am doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in My name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask Me for anything in My name, I will do it.


I apologize for the long quote but I wanted to capture the gist and context of the passage.

The first part of the passage is often quoted at funerals: “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; a believe in Me as well. 2In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am.”

It appeals to us because our hearts are often troubled at funerals. We teach it as if the passage means “The person who has died has gone to heaven where Jesus went to prepare a place for them. They are living in heaven now, so don’t let your hearts be troubled.”

If you will notice, Jesus talks about coming back to welcome them into His presence. We often teach that this as “In my second coming, I will come back and gather you unto Myself… so let your hearts not be troubled.”

Neither is the true meaning of this scripture.

First, consider that Jesus had yet to be crucified and killed. So, His ‘coming back’ refers to when He next appeared to the disciples after He was resurrected not during His triumphant return. Secondly, we need to look at the meaning of ‘prepare a place’. Does this not speak about enough rooms in heaven to house the righteous? Nope. Let’s backtrack first and look at the ‘place’ and then we’ll continue to look at the rest of the chapter.

Like many words in scripture (love, world, man, angel, man, etc.), ‘place’ has multiple meanings. During the ministry of Jesus, the religious people of His day had great concern about His influence upon the people. Earlier in John the following is recorded:

“What are we to do? This man is performing many signs. If we let Him go on like this, everyone will believe in Him, and then the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.”

‘Place’ is the Greek word ‘topos’. Here, it doesn’t mean ‘a dwelling place or a house’, but rather ‘a position of influence and station’. The religious people of His day knew that Jesus’ ministry would shut down their ministries. The grace had passed from the likeness and shadows and fell upon the reality of the Messiah who was to come. This is the same meaning of ‘place’ in the quote above: a position of influence and station.

This place, in the House of God (‘house’ here is like a family…historically we might recall the House of Windsor or the House of Montague) is only Jesus could prepare. Knowing the end from the beginning through the scriptures, we know that Jesus died as the man but was raised as the life-giving Spirit called Christ. While we could not, because of the natural laws of physics, be placed within the man called Jesus, we COULD be placed within the Christ of God. Furthermore, within Christ, we become joint heirs with Him. Heirs of what? Heirs of God’s estate. We now, with Christ, take up the affairs of the kingdom of the Living God as sons of God. Jesus prepared this place for us, in Him, when He left the earth.

“..and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.”

Earlier Jesus said, “I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one.”

But we might think, “Wait! God does not give His glory to another.”

But, in Christ, we are not ‘another’.

We are members of His body:

“For we are members of His body. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, but I am speaking about Christ and the church.”

God may freely give His glory to His Son, who is One with Him.

This is the station of influence Jesus prepared for us by His departure: we become members of the Body of Christ, His flesh and His bones. “Whoever believes in Me will also do the works that I am doing. He will do even greater things than these…” To paraphrase: Whoever believes in Me will also take up the affairs of My Father’s House.

Don’t let your hearts be troubled.

Love and Peace,
Aaron56

A joyful read in exposing what is to be entered into now in this life with Him. Thank you !

Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

 

[Evmur]

I'm in complete agreement with you in that, the great tribulation is that last 3 1/2 years of the seven year period, at the end of which is when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom. The entire seven years is the time of God's wrath/tribulation. I have never posted anything confusing the common tribulations which believers go through, vs. the seven years of God's tribulation and great tribulation.


The church is currently here experiencing the common on-gong trials and tribulation as a result of our faith.

Once the church is gathered, then God's tribulation will begin, with the last 3 1/2 years being the great tribulation

Church is gathered |-----------------------3 1/2 Years----------------------- SEVEN YEARS--------------------3 1/2 Years-----------------------|
-------------------------|-------------------------------------------------------ABOMINATION SET UP-----------Great Tribulation-------------------|
-------------------------|---------------------------SEALS---------------------------TRUMPETS--------------------------BOWLS------------------------|

I hope that we are on the same page now

Bless you. No sir we are not quite. For I believe 3 1/2 years belong before the rap. During that time antichrist is going to rage against everything called god or that is worshipped as god. He is going to seek to annihilate the church and will all but succeed.

As I read it during that period he will have some kind of pact with Israel while the temple is being built which when it is built he will break his pact and invade.

The church can expect no help from Israel during that time.

That great multitude which the Revelator saw in heaven which no man could number who he is told "these are they which have come out of great tribulation, they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

These are the end-time martyrs .... as I understand.