How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[TheDivineWatermark]

Rev 12:5
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up G726 harpazo unto God, and to his throne.
1Th 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up harpazo G726 together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It was these two verses (and their connection) that was actually a part of the "exegetical" discussion and argumentation [i.e. points being made] about this Subject which occurred in the 1800s,

...rather than the [supposed connection or origination by means of the] dreams of two young girls of that era... which is an oft-repeated notion these days (not to mention, a soundly de-bunked notion, lol)

 

[cv5]

You've mixed a few things up there including a presumption about my understanding.
And you seem desperate to tell me something.

Lucy,
I cannot be dogmatic regarding the precise sequence and timing, but the "first resurrection" consists of several unique groups and individuals.

-Jesus Himself (firstborn among many brethren)
-the Church
-2 witnesses
-144,000 Israelite "commandos"
-tribulation Saints
-OT Saints

And then we have to deal with Enoch and Elijah. Are they part of the "first resurrection" or not?

IMO, these individuals/groups will be (OR HAVE BEEN) caught up or resurrected at DIFFERENT times. Certainty the 2 witnesses, Enoch and Elijah stand out as irrefutable proof.

BUT.....NONE of them (except for Jesus, Enoch and Elijah) precede the 24 Elders of Rev 4 & 5 (who identify themselves as the SAME "kings and priests" of Rev 1:6). These of course represent the Church.

No doubt in my mind that the Church has been raptured precisely according as Jewish wedding customs dictate, and this before Daniels 70th week.....the time of the wrath of the Lamb.

Question for you: what is the identity of the 24 Elders? Please see Rev ch 7 to eliminate any confusion!

 

[cv5]

that is two returns to this earth - once in the air to snatch away before tribulation and then to come back for a second return to ground level with the Saints - this is 100% clear pre-trib, unbiblical, error.

Well....you have the story right. Unfortunately you do not believe it lol!

 

[rayzor]

That song If i be lifeted up from the earth will draw all men onto me.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Lucy,
I cannot be dogmatic regarding the precise sequence and timing, but the "first resurrection" consists of several unique groups and individuals.

-Jesus Himself (firstborn among many brethren)
-the Church
-2 witnesses
-144,000 Israelite "commandos"
-tribulation Saints
-OT Saints

And then we have to deal with Enoch and Elijah. Are they part of the "first resurrection" or not?

IMO, these individuals/groups will be (OR HAVE BEEN) caught up or resurrected at DIFFERENT times. Certainty the 2 witnesses, Enoch and Elijah stand out as irrefutable proof.

BUT.....NONE of them (except for Jesus, Enoch and Elijah) precede the 24 Elders of Rev 4 & 5 (who identify themselves as the SAME "kings and priests" of Rev 1:6). These of course represent the Church.

No doubt in my mind that the Church has been raptured precisely according as Jewish wedding customs dictate, and this before Daniels 70th week.....the time of the wrath of the Lamb.

Question for you: what is the identity of the 24 Elders? Please see Rev ch 7 to eliminate any confusion!

Is this a like a school quiz?
I'm familiar with the material but that doesn't mean we are going to agree.
I think they represent early believers. I don't think they are representative of all believers or the entire church.
Or the raptured church.

I'm not of the opinion that the term "First resurrection" indicates sequence. If that's what you are trying to teach me-
that it isn't a sequential term, I'm already of that opinion. It's those who don't face the second death. The "saved"
Those redeemed by Jesus, those not damned.

 

[CS1]

If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?

If pre-trib were true you would not be hate me over it.

Do you take it disagreeing as hating you?
LOL,
You are confirming my point about you, please continue.

 

[CS1]

Biblically speaking (which is what we're on about, right?), the word "RETURN" (re: Jesus) speaks ONLY of His RETURN to the earth (i.e. Rev19) and what takes place in such a context:

--Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (i.e. as an ALREADY-WED "Bridegroom," not "TO BE WED"... THEN the meal [G347] (this fully agrees with the distinction between Rev19:7 [re: the MARRIAGE itself, pertaining SOLELY TO the "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]"] and the distinct Rev19:9 [re: "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" pertaining to the INVITED "Guests [PLURAL]" whom He is NOT MARRYING!])... where this Lk passage is parallel to Matt24:42-51 in His Olivet Discourse (NO RAPTURE is being spoken of in Jesus' Olivet Discourse, as that is NOT the Subject Jesus is covering there, AT ALL!);


--Lk19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN"... when He will deal out responsibilities having to do with "have thou authority over ten cities"... and "over five cities"; where also this Lk passage is parallel to the Matt25:14-30 passage in His Olivet Discourse... and ditto what I said above, about that







I see that you have no qualms about changing out words to suit your own view of things (repeatedly).




--Zech14:4 - "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

I like what you are saying, I do not agree fully, can I ask you in Matthew 24 the Olivet Discourse what was Jesus responding to? many do not know.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

believe in One Return of the Lord for He said He was Coming immediately after the tribulation in those days.

Pre-tribbers do NOT disagree that Jesus is indeed RETURNING to the earth in that Matthew 24:29-31 (Matt24 Olivet Discourse) CONTEXT.

We agree that He IS Returning to the earth in that context... a context which corresponds with Isaiah 27:[9]12,13[/Rom11:27], but which you incorrectly equate with something else (a Subject which Jesus is NOT covering in His Olivet Discourse AT ALL, ANYWHERE!)

Jesus also said that the Resurrection occurs before the rapture and that this Resurrection does not take place until after the 5th Seal is completed.

Nowhere does the text (in any context) state such a thing.

You are incorrectly interpreting the wording in Rev20:6[5] to be saying "this is the first time resurrection will have occurred [for the saints]"... But that is NOT what "the resurrection the first [adjective]" in these two verses is expressing. And in fact, Scripture places the "2W" being resurrected from the dead at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" (a distinct time-slot, PRIOR to the end of the "7 yrs") to make abundantly clear that the text in Rev20 is not saying such a thing as YOU are making it to say.

 

[rayzor]

If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?

If pre-trib were true you would not be hate me over it.

DavidTree These thing are not easy to understand.Yes some error have to do with sin in are life,and wrong motive,as if those where different things.But Kingdom of god is a hidden treasure not a cook book for say

 

[cv5]

Is this a like a school quiz?
I'm familiar with the material but that doesn't mean we are going to agree.
I think they represent early believers. I don't think they are representative of all believers or the entire church.
Or the raptured church.

I'm not of the opinion that the term "First resurrection" indicates sequence. If that's what you are trying to teach me-
that it isn't a sequential term, I'm already of that opinion. It's those who don't face the second death. The "saved"
Those redeemed by Jesus, those not damned.

What I am trying to illustrate is that the term "first resurrection" does not indicate a one-time event. It is a "principal, most important" resurrection.....to life. Several different groups and persons, same destination and/or result.

https://biblehub.com/greek/4413.htm

 

[rayzor]

People that where taught by Jesus personally had trouble understanding..How much more those of faith?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I like what you are saying, I do not agree fully, can I ask you in Matthew 24 the Olivet Discourse what was Jesus responding to? many do not know.

Jesus was responding to a few different things in His Olivet Discourse OVERALL:

--Lk21:12-24a (with "WRATH" word) He's covering the events surrounding "70ad" (same for the singular verses: Mt24:2, Mk13:2, and Lk21:6--which parallel same Subject Jesus spoke of on the very day the "69 Weeks" were concluded, in His words of Lk19:41-44... as well as what He said in Matt22:7 "when the king heard thereof he was WROTH... sent forth his armies... burned up their city...");
This SECTION of Lk21:12-24 starts out with "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE" (meaning, "but BEFORE ALL THESE" beginning of birth PANGS just listed/described in vv.8-11 parallel the SAME in Matt & Mk)... meaning, the events of "70ad" PRECEDE "the BoBPs" (and note, I do not say "immediately precede". NO.)


--In the other parts of His Olivet Discourse, He is answering their Q (basically found in v.3 of Mt24), which Q was BASED ON what He had ALREADY spoken to them about in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 ("the END [SINGULAR] of the AGE [SINGULAR]" when the angels will "REAP" [aka the "WHEAT" harvest... when it is said to the angels/reapers "GATHER / COLLECT ye FIRST the TARES..."--this is the EXACT OPPOSITE "order/sequence" from that of "our Rapture" event, which is NOT BEING REFERENCED here, neither in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 NOR in His response Matt24-25;
...IOW, *we*/"the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" are NOT the "WHEAT" harvest (harvested by means of a "tribulum"--harvesting implement)... but instead are of the EARLIER harvest (which is harvested by means of "tossing UP INTO THE AIR, and BLOWING away the chaff" [recall my mentioning there is more than one "firstfruit" and more than one "harvest" in Scripture and in nature--Lev23 has TWO distinct mentions of "firstfruit," for example, and James 1:18 says "a KIND of firstfruit"])].)





Please inform me if I've overlooked anything in your question, or if you would like for me to narrow a particular point of explanation for clarification, from the above.

 

[rayzor]

The q is those found in those caves in like the 1960s the q rum.Much of it is different then the text us receptus

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ when I use the shorthand "Q," I am not referring to that ^ (rather, their "QUESTION" of Jesus in Matthew 24:3).

Just to be clear.



[...if I've understood your comment... I could be misunderstanding your point]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

DavidTree These thing are not easy to understand.Yes some error have to do with sin in are life,and wrong motive,as if those where different things.But Kingdom of god is a hidden treasure not a cook book for say

I like what you say here. = )

 

[SaltwaterGirl]

Greetings … I’m new here.

This is my understanding regarding the end-time events concerning the return of Jesus Christ. First of all, I believe that our Lord returns at the 7th trump (the last Trump) after the Antichrist (Satan) has been standing in Jerusalem claiming to be God.

So, Satan comes at the 6th trump and Jesus Christ comes at the 7th trump.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (NKJV)

The Great Apostasy
2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

 

[DavidTree]

Do you take it disagreeing as hating you?
LOL,
You are confirming my point about you, please continue.

Your not disagreeing with me - you are "adding to and taking away from the word of God."

Your hateful attack upon the Gospel of John forcing your words on John 14 and other such scriptures has turned you into hating your brother.

 

[CS1]

Jesus was responding to a few different things in His Olivet Discourse OVERALL:

--Lk21:12-24a (with "WRATH" word) He's covering the events surrounding "70ad" (same for the singular verses: Mt24:2, Mk13:2, and Lk21:6--which parallel same Subject Jesus spoke of on the very day the "69 Weeks" were concluded, in His words of Lk19:41-44... as well as what He said in Matt22:7 "when the king heard thereof he was WROTH... sent forth his armies... burned up their city...");
This SECTION of Lk21:12-24 starts out with "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE" (meaning, "but BEFORE ALL THESE" beginning of birth PANGS just listed/described in vv.8-11 parallel the SAME in Matt & Mk)... meaning, the events of "70ad" PRECEDE "the BoBPs" (and note, I do not say "immediately precede". NO.)


--In the other parts of His Olivet Discourse, He is answering their Q (basically found in v.3 of Mt24), which Q was BASED ON what He had ALREADY spoken to them about in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 ("the END [SINGULAR] of the AGE [SINGULAR]" when the angels will "REAP" [aka the "WHEAT" harvest... when it is said to the angels/reapers "GATHER / COLLECT ye FIRST the TARES..."--this is the EXACT OPPOSITE "order/sequence" from that of "our Rapture" event, which is NOT BEING REFERENCED here, neither in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 NOR in His response Matt24-25;
...IOW, *we*/"the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" are NOT the "WHEAT" harvest (harvested by means of a "tribulum"--harvesting implement)... but instead are of the EARLIER harvest (which is harvested by means of "tossing UP INTO THE AIR, and BLOWING away the chaff" [recall my mentioning there is more than one "firstfruit" and more than one "harvest" in Scripture and in nature--Lev23 has TWO distinct mentions of "firstfruit," for example, and James 1:18 says "a KIND of firstfruit"])].)





Please inform me if I've overlooked anything in your question, or if you would like for me to narrow a particular point of explanation for clarification, from the above.

What Jesus was responding to was not what you are saying but what you have said is context to the response.

Jesus was answering three-question asked of HIM by the Disciples.


Matthew 24:3

"3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”



Jesus then foretold and forth told what was going to happen in the near future the destruction of the temple, and he also told the sign of HIS Coming to the "end of the age. There are many things in Matthew 24 to 25 chapters that the Apostles did not experience.

NOr did they see it happen before they died.

This is important Because many of the Prophetic teachings of Christ did speak of what is the Coming of the Lord and HE receiving us to Himself.

The context of the answer to those THREE questioned asked of him are interwoven in these two chapters and said in the book of Daniel, Revelation 1thess 4, 1cor 15, Luke chapter 21, . John 14 Mark 13

The parables of :

The fig tree, the 10 Virgins , The faithful servant.

The teaching of :

"no one knows the day or hour "
" The Great Tribulation"
"The Coming of the Son of Man. "


The coming of the Lord and the taking of the church before the Great Tribulation is right there in all of this yet. one must know when Jesus is speaking about the three questions HE is answering in Chapter 24 that is seen in all three Gospels with the exception of John . IT is not only Matthew 24 but mark and Luke too saying and providing more context to the Gospel of Matthew. many have just overlooked this very important point to only see what is perceived as a deeper theological application.


The Context of the Olivet Discourse starts with Verse 3 and those three questioned asked of The Lord.

 

[CS1]

Your not disagreeing with me - you are "adding to and taking away from the word of God."

Your hateful attack upon the Gospel of John forcing your words on John 14 and other such scriptures has turned you into hating your brother.

Please just continue

 

[Aaron56]

Brothers and sisters,

I doubt most who believe in the pre-trib rapture are hateful or necessarily twisting the scriptures to fit their narrative. It's a doctrine of convenience, not of malice. I've posted the clear origin of the doctrine, and showed that it was a cash-cow, so, therefore, it was supported by a large, influential denomination and became a mainstream teaching in our lifetime. If it is not clear to them who read the op it will never be clear.

The warnings are apparent from scripture regarding teaching false doctrine. However, I doubt most on here are teachers. To their benefit, God has not given them this grace (no matter how long they claim to have studied this topic), so they are not held to such a high standard.

So, simply let them go. They're not going to hear you any way. Don't waste your time with them. It's quite likely they have no idea how to be prepared for the tribulations that are to come upon the earth. For this, at best they can hope for a quick and painless death so they might be with the Lord when their bodies fail.

For those whose eyes are opened: prepare yourselves and prepare your house. God is not coming back just for anything. He is coming back for a Bride who has made herself ready. Now is the time to know the Father, the One true God, and Jesus Christ, whom He has sent; this is the Biblical definition of eternal life.

I commend you to the Lord,

Aaron56