Is modern praise and worship simply a form of conjuring?

[SophieT]

39 Some of the Pharisees from the crowd told him, “Teacher, rebuke your disciples.”

hmmm

sounds very familiar.....

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I totally agree. God came down of His own doing.

But show me an example of the New Testament church "calling down" the Spirit for 45 minutes to an hour. Perhaps you've researched this.

“If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭11:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

seems like one on earth asking for the spirit from heaven above would be calling it down to them on earth

 

[ResidentAlien]

“If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭11:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

seems like one on earth asking for the spirit from heaven above would be calling it down to them on earth

No, it doesn't sound like calling the Holy Spirit down to earth at all.

I'm not saying we shouldn't ask for the Holy Spirit's help. But Luke 11:13 has nothing to do with the kind of hypnotic corporate worship services I'm talking about.

I find it interesting that you refer to the Holy Spirit as "it." I don't know if this was an oversight on your part or if it reflects your true way of seeing the Spirit. Is He the third person of the trinity or a thing, a force, that can be manipulated?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

No, it doesn't sound like calling the Holy Spirit down to earth at all.

I'm not saying we shouldn't ask for the Holy Spirit's help. But Luke 11:13 has nothing to do with the kind of hypnotic corporate worship services I'm talking about.

I find it interesting that you refer to the Holy Spirit as "it." I don't know if this was an oversight on your part or if it reflects your true way of seeing the Spirit. Is He the third person of the trinity or a thing, a force, that can be manipulated?[/


“ it” was just a way of speaking it’s not meaning I don’t believe the Holy Spirit is God.

And certainly what you have insinuated there you wouldn’t find in my words or thinking this I mean

“Is He the third person of the trinity or a thing, a force, that can be manipulated?”

“He’s” actually not a third person “he” is the one Gods living spirit.

that’s an oversight on my part. Which isn’t the first or last time I’ll make a mistake like that but I’m okay with that part

but anyways you don’t think someone asking to receive the Holy Spirit would be the same as asking him to come down to them ?

He isn’t saying anything about asking the holy spirits help there he said he will give the Holy Spirit to those who ask

my point was the spirit comes from above from Gods throne

“Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it comes from above and we are below seems pretty sensible to Me and if someone is asking to receive the holy spirit who is on earth it isn’t the spirit going to be coming down to fill thier heart?

but I do see how you would see it the other way given how far you went with the term I used seems like you may see a lot of what isn’t really there like someone asking the Holy Spirit to come down and fill them . Could be looking to much at the letters and missing the message

 

[Aidan1]

If Pentecostals praising him for 45min rubs you the wrong way.....

Wait until you get to heaven and there are thousands upon thousands of angels & humans praising him for hours on end.
Where day & night the living creatures never stop saying "Holy Holy Holy Lord" and the elders fall to the ground in worship
- you might really be offended.

Praising God in assembly is part of being in relationship with him.

Not the praising is the problem. Calling down the Holy Spirit who is living in every believer, is what is strange. Its like to comand Him.

 

[Aidan1]

It doesn't matter if it's from the New Testament or Old Testament. The fact still remains that God can and does come down and there is an example of someone asking Him to come down: Isaiah 63:15 - 64:12

Isaiah 64:1
1Oh that thou wouldest rend the heavens, that thou wouldest come down, that the mountains might flow down at thy presence,

The New Testament says that we are allowed to ask God for absolutely anything:

John 14:13-14
13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

1 John 5:14-15
14And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: 15And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

There is no command forbidding asking God to come down.

But why calling the Holy Spirit down, if he lives already in every believer?

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Not the praising is the problem. Calling down the Holy Spirit who is living in every believer, is what is strange. Its like to comand Him.

No it isn't. The Holy Spirit is God. He has his own will, he isn't simply a force dwelling inside us.
Haven't you ever asked a friend if they would like to spend time with you because you enjoy their company?
Does that mean you are commanding them or trying to control them?

 

[Aidan1]

If you are denying that The Holy Spirit is God you are a heretic.
You shouldn't be accusing anyone else of falling away.




Just as the people of The Lord God have always done

Psalm 107
8 Let them give thanks to the Lord for his unfailing love
and his wonderful deeds for mankind,
9 for he satisfies the thirsty
and fills the hungry with good things.

Deut 33:29
How happy you are, Israel!
Who is like you,
a people saved by the Lord?
He is the shield that protects you,
the sword you boast in.
Your enemies will cringe before you,
and you will tread on their backs.

Isaiah 61
9 Their descendants will be known among the nations,
and their posterity among the peoples.
All who see them will recognize
that they are a people the Lord has blessed.

10 I rejoice greatly in the Lord,
I exult in my God;
for he has clothed me with the garments of salvation
and wrapped me in a robe of righteousness,
as a groom wears a turban
and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.

Psalm 144:15
15 Happy are the people with such blessings.
Happy are the people whose God is the Lord.


​

The Holy Spirit is God, thats true. But the Adressat for worshipping is God the father or the Lord Jesus! The Holy Spirit came for to translate our prayers to God, not for to be worshipped. I dont know an exampel of the NT time after pentecost where believers are encouraged to worship the Holy Spirit. Maby you can Show me?

 

[Aidan1]

No it isn't. The Holy Spirit is God. He has his own will, he isn't simply a force dwelling inside us.
Haven't you ever asked a friend if they would like to spend time with you because you enjoy their company?
Does that mean you are commanding them or trying to control them?

The Holy Spirit came for to teach what our Lord Jesus taught. He is here instead of the Lord Jesus.
I dont need to invite somebody who is already there. If the Holy Spirit is living in us. We have company. I dont have to ask him to come.
I ask a friend to have company with me when he is not there. If he is my room already I dont need to ask him. Come to me.

 

[Aidan1]

come on you meant those who call out to the Lord or the Holy Spirit are Conjuring what the devil? Those who come to worship the Lord and seek HIM find the devil? that is blasphemous to say. I have sung this song and in church, we saw people saved and healed not because of the song but because those who come to Worship Jesus and are doing so GOd confirms HIS word. Now we are attacking worship music LOl. Bunch of pharieeses.

If worship music leads only to good mood or is used for to manipulate. Many sensitive people are open for such kind of music and can be manipulate. This is not New.
But no fear, the Lord knows our heart.

 

[Aidan1]

[


amen . So many subjects such as this is a matter of faith . If people are convinced they are becoming some devil by worshipping along song and praise music , it’s probably a terrible idea for that person to be involved in it because they would by faith be violating thier own conscience

but we tend to want to force our faith on others regarding things like this . And it just clashes and causes doubt and stumbling blocks .

I know a wonderful woman who listens to praise music all day probably any song she can hear that exalts the Lords name. And it turns out she is one of the most inspiring people that is constantly speaking of the lord always encouraging biblical principles , always looking to uplift others ect

she’s unable to walk , drive , and do many things others are able to do yet she gives of her own means to others in need almost in a constant state whether it’s money , thkngs needed , but more impressively a joy that has nothing to do with her circumstance but the music helps her to constantly be reminded of Christ and his glory and love towards others

I say the more music , movies , stories , books that are spreading Christ in many ways is needed in tbe word because for every song praising Gods work and words on earth there are a thousand secular songs that slander and ignore his word and glory

inviting him to come , seems to be in line with requesting his kingdom to come and will to be done

Correct if the Lord is the Center there is no time limit to praise Him.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

The Holy Spirit came for to teach what our Lord Jesus taught. He is here instead of the Lord Jesus.
I dont need to invite somebody who is already there. If the Holy Spirit is living in us. We have company. I dont have to ask him to come.
I ask a friend to have company with me when he is not there. If he is my room already I dont need to ask him. Come to me.[/QUO

There are different kinds of prayers. They aren't all formal.
If you never talk to The Holy Spirit that's your choice. He doesn't draw worship to himself.
I do sometimes talk to him. I ask him for his help and I tell him I love him.

 

[Aidan1]

I have to laugh when people wanna complain about "modern worship stuff." I guess they never read the Book of Psalms.

Waaayyyyyyyy back then, people PARTIED when they praised and worshiped God! Dance, dance, dance, put your hands in the air and wave them just like you don't care...........sing, sing......sing.......PLAY ALL the instruments you have!!!!!!

Basically, Psalm 150 pretty much nutshells praising God in Biblical times.

Yes, thats right. But God condemned the nation later, because they praise Him with their lips, but not with the heart. If I am not wrong.
The heart is the point. We can sing and pray for hours, if it is not an expression of our heart it is worthless on Gods eyes.
And he is the One who knows our heart.

 

[Aidan1]

There are different kinds of prayers. They aren't all formal.
If you never talk to The Holy Spirit that's your choice. He doesn't draw worship to himself.
I do sometimes talk to him. I ask him for his help and I tell him I love him.

Fine, but bible teaches us for to ask and pray in the name of our Lord Jesus to our heavenly father. Jesus gave the so called Lordsprayer. You can read Pauls letter to the ephesians or the philliper. Adressat for the praise is always God the father. No Single example to praise or pray to the Holy Spirit.
Why? It is what God wants so.
If you say you tell the Holy Spirit you love Him, then you dont tell Jesus or the father that you love Him. Thats my impression.

 

[presidente]

At many charismatic churches, praise and worship can last from 30 to 45 minutes or even longer. The supposed purpose of this is to "call down" the Holy Spirit. But does the Holy Spirit really need to be called down, or is this just a way to get people into an emotional state of pleasure and receptivity? Does this sort of thing honor God or are we honoring the creature more than the Creator?

One song that comes to mind is Kari Jobe's "Holy Spirit." The reason I remember it is because the lyrics are clearly an invitation to the Spirit to fall, or come down. Here's the live video.

Virtually every charismatic church and especially megachurches use music to get the audience "in the mood." Maybe we should consider who or what is actually being conjured by this.

As for the title-- no, I do not see this as 'conjuring.' Conjuring sounds like something demonic.

In Acts 11, we read how the Spirit fell upon those gathered at Cornelius house. The idea of the Spirit falling is a Biblical concept. The Psalms have prayers requesting God to do things-- Let God arise and His enemies be scattered. When we pray, we often ask God to do things. That's not unbiblical.

If you want to argue that anything in this video goes against a specific precept of scripture, go ahead.

I believe in spiritual gifts and I am used to music like this as well as older hymns. I have noticed some of the preaching and songs in certain churches do pay a lot of attention to feeling God's presence or things along those lines, more than I see in scripture. So I share a little concern about how much the concept is emphasized, but nothing really to cause me to think this sort of thing is heretical.

I have heard concerns that it may not be appropriate to pray to the Holy Spirit since this is not modeled or taught in scripture, but I cannot think of any line in this song that does that off the top of my head. Maybe East Germanic 'Aryans', if they held to the same confession as Wulfias might have had strong concerns about this. They may have accepted the deity of Christ but not the personhood of the Spirit. Maybe some of the WorldWide Church of God offshoots have an issue with it. But I haven't encountered Pentecostals or Charismatics who deny the personhood of the Spirit.

 

[CS1]

That is not even the issue. Jesus said that where two or three are gathered in His name, there He is in the midst of them. And where Christ is present, the Holy Spirit and the Father are also present. So there is no need to call down the Spirit. Christians need to simply thank God during worship for the fact that Christ -- indeed the triune Godhead -- is ALREADY PRESENT with them.

The Catholics make a big deal out of the "real presence" of Christ in the Eucharist. While the Catholic Eucharist is unbiblical, the real presence of Christ definitely is not, particularly at the Lord's Supper (clearly different from the Eucharist). Acts 4 gives us a glimpse of the presence of the Spirit while Christians were praying earnestly, and Acts 13:1-4 shows us that the Holy Spirit during worship was already present and commissioned Paul and Barnabbas.

1 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. 2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. 3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. 4 So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.

As to how Charismatics and/or Pentecostals worship, that is nobody else's business. If they choose to call down the Holy Spirit, it is up to their pastors and elders to teach them Bible truth. They will give account for their worship as others will for theirs.

but the two or three must worship as you think? SO asking God to come and heal our Land is not ok to pray and ask? Asking the Holy Spirit to Come in your power are your own special way is not acknowledging The Holy Spirit has power and is able to help?


It is sad, that now many are telling us to worship the way they do as an individual expression to God is not having to be controlled.

I am not saying disagree with your comment I know you are a good Child of God, however, there are those ( not You)

who say such things about how one worship yet they approve and try to make every movie and music they like about God as an example :

• Lord of The Rings
• Herry Potter
• Stryper
• phinehas
• The Devil wears Prada
• AntiDemon

I have heard ministers tell the parents as they were having to push back on the Harry Potter crazy to let their kids see the movie when the first one came out because it mentioned Love. And he went on to say that Christians should try to always find God and seek something Good in every situation.

Now we have John Macarthur attacking Christian worship music because they have what he says is theological errors in the music and are taking the Holy Spirit's name in vain. That is a presupposition, Mr. Macarthur. Do YOu now know the intent of the person who sings a song? And judging those who sing songs as they are blaspheming the Holy Spirt? I guess everyone is on their way to hell if they don't worship the way it makes you feel?

Hillsong and Bethel have a movement which I agree on with Mr. Macarthur very well would be a movement without the music, however, when I hear a John Macarthur say such things, when He has the knowledge how to correct and use what God has given to ensure what has done by God is corrected, he chooses to attack it.

Does anyone think that Hillsong has not had God in it, as All movements of God that man and the devil have perverted?

Can you name one movement of God man has not messed up over the years? WE need to come together because I can ensure you that if those Baptist, Pentecostals and every other Christian faith do not and stay divided the church and this nation is through.

The church of the Living God has lost many battles and we have stood by and watched all have that sin. The Baptist, Pentecostals, etc...

Every dynamic teacher has this sin too.

We, I say WE stood by as:

• 62 million babies are murders called abortion
• gay marriage and transgender took over
• watch divorce and welfare break up the family
• as children are shot in the dead in places Like Chicago
• we stood by as Iraq Christian were murdered for their faith

Now, all we do today it talks and circles our wagon around the camp we agree with YET blind to the truth we all are losing another generation. The greatest concern today is the theological error of worship music that one doesn't like.

 

[presidente]

At many charismatic churches, praise and worship can last from 30 to 45 minutes or even longer. The supposed purpose of this is to "call down" the Holy Spirit. But does the Holy Spirit really need to be called down, or is this just a way to get people into an emotional state of pleasure and receptivity? Does this sort of thing honor God or are we honoring the creature more than the Creator?

Why would this be more honoring to the creature more than the creator? That terminology is used in Romans 1 in a passage about idolatry and same-sex behavior. This song is full of praises to God and prayer to become more aware of God's presence. Christian theology traditionally accepts omnipresence mas one of God's attributes. Acts speaks of the Spirit falling.

What does the Bible say about 'emotional states' in relation to praising God? The Psalms commend listeners to rejoice, to praise the Lord, even to dance. Why would this type of practice be associated with idolatry?

Consider these scriptures, quoted from the ESV, bold emphasis mine.

Psalm 5:11
But let all who take refuge in you rejoice; let them ever sing for joy, and spread your protection over them, that those who love your name may exult in you.

Psalm 16:11
You make known to me the path of life; in your presence there is fullness of joy; at your right hand are pleasures forevermore.

Maybe the real question here is if you see a room full of people singing praises and prayers to God, why would you despise or ridicule it? Do you remember the story of David and Micah?

I can watch a choir singing traditional Anglican hymns or a country-style hymns of praise and join in and praise God with those doing it. Shouldn't you be able to do that with more 'contemporary' songs of praise to the Lord?

Where is the warning in the Bible against heightened emotional states in relation to praising God... or anything at all? Where is the warning about music and emotion? Some people have their own fears and concerns that have nothing at all to do with the teaching of the Bible.

Another passage to consider is in II Kings 3. When Elisha was called upon to inquire of the LORD, he called for a minstrel. As the music played, the hand of the Lord came upon him and he prophesied.

 

[SophieT]

The Holy Spirit is God, thats true. But the Adressat for worshipping is God the father or the Lord Jesus! The Holy Spirit came for to translate our prayers to God, not for to be worshipped. I dont know an exampel of the NT time after pentecost where believers are encouraged to worship the Holy Spirit. Maby you can Show me?

and you know all about this because, although you have never participated in a meeting where people do not fall asleep, you are an expert because you think so

typical...just like your opinions in the other thread

 

[SophieT]

The Holy Spirit came for to teach what our Lord Jesus taught. He is here instead of the Lord Jesus.
I dont need to invite somebody who is already there. If the Holy Spirit is living in us. We have company. I dont have to ask him to come.
I ask a friend to have company with me when he is not there. If he is my room already I dont need to ask him. Come to me.

aaaaannnndddd

I rest my case

does not need to follow the biblical method. he has his own. aka as 'it it time to go home yet?'

 

[SophieT]

Yes, thats right. But God condemned the nation later, because they praise Him with their lips, but not with the heart. If I am not wrong.
The heart is the point. We can sing and pray for hours, if it is not an expression of our heart it is worthless on Gods eyes.
And he is the One who knows our heart.

I don't have that problem

as you say, God knows our hearts

does that make you uncomfortable? you cannot tell other people how to worship anymore than you can mandate others to receive poison into their bodies

you said in the other thread people should be forced to have the covid shot

what would you like to force on people here?