Eternal Security: What do you do with James 2?

[Pilgrimshope]

Does it really make that much difference? Some say God and some say others and some say both. Believers are shown to be righteous by works. We show our faith by our works. (James 2:18)

yep I apologize I wasnt grasping your posts

 

[mailmandan]

So what happens if a Christian doesn’t do the works set before us? What. Becomes of them are they also saved by grace?

I think we probably agree

Christians do not perform works in order to become saved, but because they are saved. There is not a specific amount of works a Christian must do in order to be saved by grace. The apostle Paul accomplished a numerous amount of works during his ministry, yet the thief on the cross died soon after his conversion. He only had time to rebuke the other thief and ask Jesus to remember him when He comes into His kingdom, demonstrating he believed in Jesus unto salvation.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You quoted out of Mark and Galatians. Who is the book of James addressed to? Always consider the audience. "To whom is the passage written to, to whom does this doctrine apply?"

Not all doctrines apply to the body of Christ.

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

To which of the twelve tribes do you belong?

Paul teaching the Gentiles

“That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances;

for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, ( gentile )

and to them that were nigh. ( Jew) For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:12-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jew and gentile are no longer seperated because of the gospel that made all men one in Christ one fold one shepherd

I’m not sure your hearing me that what God says to a Jew in the New Testament he says also to gentile it’s the same now Gentiles have been brought into the kingdom that Jesus preached there is. I more difference

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Christians do not perform works in order to become saved, but because they are saved. There is not a specific amount of works a Christian must do in order to be saved by grace. The apostle Paul accomplished a numerous amount of works during his ministry, yet the thief on the cross died soon after his conversion. He only had time to rebuke the other thief and ask Jesus to remember him when He comes into His kingdom, demonstrating he believed in Jesus unto salvation.

Hi mailmandan When Apostle James wrote that faith without works Is dead was he talking about faith without works was dead to GOD or was he talking about faith without works was dead to men?

 

[John146]

Does it really make that much difference? Some say God and some say others and some say both. Believers are shown to be righteous by works. We show our faith by our works. (James 2:18)

Does not the blood of Christ justify the believer? That’s Christ’s faith in action. I could never do enough to justify my salvation before God.

 

[John146]

like I was saying I’m not looking to get back into the same debate we argued last week . The whole idea of certain epistles being for certain groups is erroneous and just another way to avoid the truth Paul is an apostle so is Peter so is John but Jesus is Lord of all

the New Testament is for any believer lol Jew and gentile make no matter anymore Jew and gentile both face this

“Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

For there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Was Paul not writing to the church ? Because we all gave the same jidgement the gospel is sent out to all to save us beforehand and offer repentance

your stuck on the ot when Jew and gentile were seperated, still applying the New Testament that way but it’s because you want the doctrine of men explaining “there’s nothing to see here “

it’s odd because that’s been satans message from the start God spoke life he comes along and insists that’s not for you …. We should learn eventually where eternal Life is found and it’s not in the imaginary second gospel taught by Joseph prince and Paul Ellis I’m sorry to say

Pauls letters specifically address the body of Christ. James’ letter specifically addresses the twelve tribes of Israel. Throughout scripture, the twelve tribes of Israel is never a reference to the body of Christ, where there is neither Jew or Gentile.

 

[Ogom]

You quoted out of Mark and Galatians. Who is the book of James addressed to? Always consider the audience. "To whom is the passage written to, to whom does this doctrine apply?"

a l w a y s consider the Spirit / spirit. what does this verse speak to me (you / us / me / who ever reads it)?

what does it speak to another? there are many members of the body and each can see different things and / or expound / understand different things -- as the Spirit of GOD reveals -- to EACH.

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

To which of the twelve tribes do you belong?

spiritual Israel (Christians and any / Every follower of the Spirit [whether from a Christian background or not or ever consider ]) are of course all the tribes -- because we / they / us -- are followers of the Spirit -- are Israel -- grafted in to the body of Christ.

 

[mailmandan]

Does not the blood of Christ justify the believer? That’s Christ’s faith in action. I could never do enough to justify my salvation before God.

Yes. Romans 5:9 - Much more then, having now been justified (accounted as righteous) by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. There is a difference between being justified (accounted as righteous) by faith (Romans 4:2-6) and being justified (shown to be righteous) by works. (James 2:14-24)

 

[John146]

Yes. Romans 5:9 - Much more then, having now been justified (accounted as righteous) by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. There is a difference between being justified (accounted as righteous) by faith (Romans 4:2-6) and being justified (shown to be righteous) by works. (James 2:14-24)

What works specifically justify a believer and how much?

 

[mailmandan]

What works specifically justify a believer and how much?

James gives us an example in James 2:15-16. It’s not necessarily about quantity.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Christians do not perform works in order to become saved, but because they are saved. There is not a specific amount of works a Christian must do in order to be saved by grace. The apostle Paul accomplished a numerous amount of works during his ministry, yet the thief on the cross died soon after his conversion. He only had time to rebuke the other thief and ask Jesus to remember him when He comes into His kingdom, demonstrating he believed in Jesus unto salvation.

“Christians do not perform works in order to become saved, but because they are saved.”

Agreed I have never said to not have faith first. I’ve said to hear faith and then do the works your taught by Christ in the gospel that’s salvstion but can you answer my question I’ve posed it three times

what becomes of a professing Christian who doesn’t do the works of faith ? For instance what about baptism ?

God said her baptized for remission of your sins that is now faith so do we then go get baptized because we believe him ? Orrrrr is that unnecessary because we’re already “saved “ ?

I’ve heard the argument baptism is a work not needed what say you ?

I agree also there isn’t a set degree of standard of works , each person is accountable for what they understand having heard it so say a Christian hears about getting baptized for remission of sins a very common and continuos doctrine in the New Testament before and after the cross

so does baptism remit our sins like God said ? Or is it an in necassary work because we’re saved already ?

 

[John146]

James gives us an example in James 2:15-16. It’s not necessarily about quantity.

If I provide clothes for someone, I’m justified?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Pauls letters specifically address the body of Christ. James’ letter specifically addresses the twelve tribes of Israel. Throughout scripture, the twelve tribes of Israel is never a reference to the body of Christ, where there is neither Jew or Gentile.

ueah this was my point nothing anyone says or quotes from the Bible will deter you . That website and those teachings I was duped by also many years ago , the. I read a bit of scripture myself and our down the glorious grace book

you know how your taught not to confess your sins and just thank Gid your righteous ? That is this far off , you are being taught to pray as a Pharisee

“Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭18:10-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that subject that guy teaches about your “ sin consciousness “ is a prime example of false doctrine Christians are taught this to clear thier conscience if they have sinned

“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:8-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

whe. He teaches people to not acknowledge thier sins doesn’t it bother you that it’s opposite of the New Testament ? Again I was duped by the guy also years ago before he became popular but just a short biblical study shows him to be a deceiver selling 500 million dollars worth of books explaining the scriptire isn’t really for you and Jesus words will condemn you ect

I’m sorry to disagree with the core of your arguments always but I just do because of what scripture says and what you continually say

God is no respector of men in other worlds bieng a Jew or gentile doesn’t make any difference in any way , what matter. Or is what you do according to faith built from the gospel and Gods word

 

[rayzor]

If I provide clothes for someone, I’m justified?

John146 At that moment depending on motive.There is a passage that talk about gentiles that died without the law = the bible .How there conscience accuse's them or excuse's them.Their conscience being their guide.Despite the hell thing there's different levels of punishment.Every good action makes a difference.

 

[mailmandan]

“Christians do not perform works in order to become saved, but because they are saved.”

Agreed I have never said to not have faith first. I’ve said to hear faith and then do the works your taught by Christ in the gospel that’s salvstion but can you answer my question I’ve posed it three times

what becomes of a professing Christian who doesn’t do the works of faith ? For instance what about baptism ?

God said her baptized for remission of your sins that is now faith so do we then go get baptized because we believe him ? Orrrrr is that unnecessary because we’re already “saved “ ?

I’ve heard the argument baptism is a work not needed what say you ?

I agree also there isn’t a set degree of standard of works , each person is accountable for what they understand having heard it so say a Christian hears about getting baptized for remission of sins a very common and continuos doctrine in the New Testament before and after the cross

so does baptism remit our sins like God said ? Or is it an in necassary work because we’re saved already ?

So you believe that we are saved through faith + water baptism? Are you referring to Acts 2:38 as your proof text for baptism?

 

[mailmandan]

If I provide clothes for someone, I’m justified?

James 2:15 - If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

This would be an act of love and in 1 John 4:7, we read - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. Providing food and clothing out of love is not going to justify you in the sense of being accounted as righteous, but in the sense of being shown to be righteous, according to James.

 

[John146]

ueah this was my point nothing anyone says or quotes from the Bible will deter you . That website and those teachings I was duped by also many years ago , the. I read a bit of scripture myself and our down the glorious grace book

you know how your taught not to confess your sins and just thank Gid your righteous ? That is this far off , you are being taught to pray as a Pharisee

“Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭18:10-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that subject that guy teaches about your “ sin consciousness “ is a prime example of false doctrine Christians are taught this to clear thier conscience if they have sinned

“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:8-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

whe. He teaches people to not acknowledge thier sins doesn’t it bother you that it’s opposite of the New Testament ? Again I was duped by the guy also years ago before he became popular but just a short biblical study shows him to be a deceiver selling 500 million dollars worth of books explaining the scriptire isn’t really for you and Jesus words will condemn you ect

I’m sorry to disagree with the core of your arguments always but I just do because of what scripture says and what you continually say

God is no respector of men in other worlds bieng a Jew or gentile doesn’t make any difference in any way , what matter. Or is what you do according to faith built from the gospel and Gods word

What you are saying is all God’s commands in the Bible are for the body of Christ? Do you not recognize audience?

 

[John146]

James 2:15 - If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

This would be an act of love and in 1 John 4:7, we read - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. Providing food and clothing out of love is not going to justify you in the sense of being accounted as righteous, but in the sense of being shown to be righteous, according to James.

If I don’t do these things, would that give justification that I’m not saved?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

So you believe that we are saved through faith + water baptism? Are you referring to Acts 2:38 as your proof text for baptism?

You can’t answer straight forward huh ?

so I was understanding you before. Where does faith come from in your estimation ? I’m saying this

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s what God said right ?

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬


so what would faith do with Gods word about something as simple as baptism which Jesus Christ tied to salvation ? Does faith reject it and answer question with question or does faith believe a gods word ?

it should be this reaction this is faith working in action

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. Praising God, and having favour with all the people.

And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-39, 41-42, 47‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I think o did understand you before and the wyd the issue with that circular argument of no works no works faith no works

even something as simple as Gods own promise of remission of sins becomes an in necassary work yet faith comes from believing the word of God not rejecting it as in needed and making an argument for some different faitb

And I was actually pointing to the fact that every example in scriptire includong Paul’s conversion was accompanied with baptism for remission of sins not just that example. But I’m seeing your position more now

 

[Pilgrimshope]

What you are saying is all God’s commands in the Bible are for the body of Christ? Do you not recognize audience?

Lol comon man we went through this before

“The law and the prophets were until John:

since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:16‬ ‭

everything Jesus Christ preached in the flesh after his baptism is for anyone who believes