Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[FreeGrace2]

The scriptures show the benefits for those who are in Christ.

These benefits are not given to everyone. Only those in Christ.

I've never said differently. Why do you presume that I am a universalist?

This is kindergarten sunday school stuff. Did you go to sunday school as a kid?

Aside from your snarkiness, what are you trying to get at here?

How can you argue against Scripture regarding who Christ died for?

Show me any verse that clearly indicates that Christ didn't die for everyone or that He died ONLY for some. I don't care about specific wording, but the concept must be clear.

While you are at it, I'll share some verses for you to try to refute.

John 1:29 - The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
Prove from context that John meant "Only the world of the elect".

John 4:42 - They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”
Prove from context that these Samaritans were Calvinists and meant "ONLY the world of the elect".

2 Cor 5-
14 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
Prove from context that "all" here cannot refer to everyone in humanity.

2 Cor 5:19 - that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
Prove from context that "the world" means "ONLY the world of the elect".

Heb 2:9 - But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

1 Tim 4:10 - That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe. Here, Paul says that Christ is the Savior of everyone, but effective for those who believe.

1 Tim 2-
4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.
Prove from context that "all people" doesn't mean everyone in humanity.

1 John 2:2 - He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins (believers), and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world (unbelievers).
Prove from context that "whole world" cannot mean everyone in humanity, or only means "whole world of the elect".

Well, that's just from the top of my head. I'm sure there are other clear verses as well.

 

[phil36]

Sorry bro, the elect refers to the Jews in the verse I quoted.



Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10

• the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation

Paul is commenting that the elect also need salvation.




JPT

Hi justpassingthrough,

You are reading into the text.. that 'they also' are jews.

Paul refers to himself, he is suffering for the Gospel of Christ (v8-9), therefore Paul endures all this suffering (v9-10) so that the elect may also come to salvation through the gospel proclaimed.. CF. V2. these are the people who hear and believe... from all people.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

So if the benefits of Christ Jesus is only for believers then why was it necessary for Him to do anything since they were already saved.
His death and resurrection was of no valve to them as it was the lost that Christ Jesus came to save.

Your theology needs a serious rethink.

The Lord Jesus doesn't save unbelievers. Only believers.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

You completely disregarded the point brought up by Justified.

If, as you claim, the "elect" are already saved, there is no need for Messiah the Redeemer.

Also, at one point in his/her life, the person who "believeth on Him" was not a "believer":

John 3:

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.



Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die ...

 

[justpassinthrough]

Hi justpassingthrough,

You are reading into the text.. that 'they also' are jews.

Paul refers to himself, he is suffering for the Gospel of Christ (v8-9), therefore Paul endures all this suffering (v9-10) so that the elect may also come to salvation through the gospel proclaimed.. CF. V2. these are the people who hear and believe... from all people.

I think we can agree that Paul plainly stated that the elect were in need of salvation.


I see the context…


Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel, for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained. Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:8-10


Here is what we can conclude:


The elect is a distinct people group.
The elect is also in need of salvation






JPT

 

[phil36]

I think we can agree that Paul plainly stated that the elect were in need of salvation.


I see the context…


Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel, for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained. Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:8-10


Here is what we can conclude:


The elect is a distinct people group.
The elect is also in need of salvation






JPT

As I said you are reading into the text that 'they' are jews.

Paul is pointing out that Jesus is indeed the seed of David and raised from the dead.. what follows? Paul says 'this is my Gospel'. This gospel, the one gospel message goes out to all men. Paul suffers for the gospel for the sake of the elct that they may also be saved like him and Timothy etc etc.



Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3 regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David, 4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. 5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake. 6 And you also are among those Gentiles who are called to belong to Jesus Christ. Romans 1:1-7


Do you see the point. Paul is referring to his gospel. and this gospel MMMMm who did Paul mainly take it to?

 

[John146]

I think we can agree that Paul plainly stated that the elect were in need of salvation.


I see the context…


Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel, for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained. Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:8-10


Here is what we can conclude:


The elect is a distinct people group.
The elect is also in need of salvation






JPT

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

 

[phil36]

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

Amen to that.. and

It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Romans 9:6

What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says in Hosea:
“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,” Romans 9:22-25.

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love Eph 1:4

Election simply means choosing.. the people God chooses.

 

[John146]

Election simply means choosing.. the people God chooses.

Choosing for service, not salvation. Jesus Christ was God's elect. Certain angels are elect. The nation of Israel was God's elect nation. All were chosen to carry out a particular service for God.

 

[phil36]

Choosing for service, not salvation. Jesus Christ was God's elect. Certain angels are elect. The nation of Israel was God's elect nation. All were chosen to carry out a particular service for God.

And christians are God's elect also. Chosen, both jew and gentile alike.

It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Romans 9:6

What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says in Hosea:
“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,” Romans 9:22-25.

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love Eph 1:4

Election simply means choosing.. the people God chooses.

 

[FreeGrace2]

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love Eph 1:4

Election simply means choosing.. the people God chooses.

No, there is always a purpose in God's election. Read Eph 1:4 above. "He chose us (believers)...to be holy and blameless.

This is an election to service.

Acts 9:15 - But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.

This is an election to service.

1 Cor 1:27,28
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,

Clearly, these choices are for service.

What isn't in the Bible is anyone being elected to salvation.

 

[brightfame52]

The Eternal Election of and in Grace is essential to being saved by Grace! If we take away discriminating Election of Grace, we take away salvation by Grace, and we corrupt the Gospel of God's Grace Acts 20:24

24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

 

[Justified]

The Lord Jesus doesn't save unbelievers. Only believers.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Well if Christ Jesus does not save sinners then who does He save? Since we are all sinners, and according to you He does not save them then we are all toast.

But wait what do I see here
Luk 19:10 for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."
1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
Mat 9:13 But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE MERCY AND NOT SACRIFICE.' For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance."
Luk 5:32 I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance."

And in-case you missed it that includes all of us
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Actually unbelievers are the only ones that Christ Jesus can save as we are all sinners in need of a saviour. And this may shock you but even after we are saved we still need a saviour. If and when you stop knowing you need a saviour then you are lost and then are truly in need of a saviour.

 

[brightfame52]

justified

Actually unbelievers are the only ones that Christ Jesus can save as we are all sinners in need of a saviour.

True, He just doesnt save all sinners, only a remnant, His Elect !

 

[FreeGrace2]

The Eternal Election of and in Grace is essential to being saved by Grace!

There is no mention of election involved in salvation.

If we take away discriminating Election of Grace, we take away salvation by Grace, and we corrupt the Gospel of God's Grace Acts 20:24

please show any verse that mentions "election of grace".

24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

There is no mention of election in this or any other verse about salvation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

True, He just doesnt save all sinners, only a remnant, His Elect !

Please show any verse that says Christ only died for the elect.

 

[cv5]

Sorry bro, the elect refers to the Jews in the verse I quoted.



Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10

• the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation

Paul is commenting that the elect also need salvation.




JPT

Hardly...

Rom 11:7 - What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Col 3:12 - Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering;

 

[cv5]

Sorry bro, the elect refers to the Jews in the verse I quoted.



Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10

• the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation

Paul is commenting that the elect also need salvation.




JPT

1 Thes 1:4
Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we should always thank God for you, brothers who are loved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning to be saved by the sanctification of the Spirit and by faith in the truth.

Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness,

Jews only?....hardly.

 

[cv5]

No, there is always a purpose in God's election. Read Eph 1:4 above. "He chose us (believers)...to be holy and blameless.

This is an election to service.

Acts 9:15 - But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.

This is an election to service.

1 Cor 1:27,28
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,

Clearly, these choices are for service.

What isn't in the Bible is anyone being elected to salvation.

No person will EVER serve God in the heavenly realm unless he first receives salvation FIRST.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No person will EVER serve God in the heavenly realm unless he first receives salvation FIRST.

No one would argue with this. But it still misses the whole point. Election is NOT to salvation, and neither nor anyone else has ever proven that.

You need to get over the Calvinist claim about their doctrine. It is NOT to salvation. It is to SERVICE, as I've been proving from Scripture.

 

[phil36]

No one would argue with this. But it still misses the whole point. Election is NOT to salvation, and neither nor anyone else has ever proven that.

You need to get over the Calvinist claim about their doctrine. It is NOT to salvation. It is to SERVICE, as I've been proving from Scripture.

How is one enabled to serve?

If you say one is elected to serve, then election is dependent on mans sovereign will (according to your view). Because no one can serve unless regenerated. And according to your view this is wholly dependent upon man.

Plus, isn't service part of salvation?