Doctrine of Unconditional Election
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Honestly....you are straining a gnat and swallowing a camel. I have just proved that election/choosing/appointing is to salvation. Service follows. I will qualify this axiom by saying that election to salvation is ALWAYS the case....for Christians in this present Church age. There is no other condition. There is no such thing as being elect to service and NOT salvation. Saying otherwise is a figment of your imagination.
FreeGrace2 said:
Please quote any verse that directly and clearly indicates that God unconditionally chooses anyone for salvation.
How is one placed "in Christ"? Eph 1:13,14 tells us plainly. "having believed". That's how. That's how salvation is obtained.
This is the kind of an answer that shows the person can't defend themselves or their theology.
You know there are NO verses that say that God unconditionally chooses anyone for salvation.
Reading comprehension will prove that election is for service in EVERY verse where a purpose of such election is stated.
Again, NO verses showing that God elects for salvation.
Yet you still have no verses that say so.
To help in understanding, God has chosen believers, those who are His own children, for service.
This isn't difficult to understand. But NO ONE is elected to salvation, and certainly not unconditionally.
To be saved, one MUST believe in Christ. That is a condition.
So, to claim that people are "unconditionally elected" to salvation is to negate the very words of Scripture and Paul's answer to the jailer who asked him what he MUST DO to be saved. Paul said to "believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved".
That is a condition, quite obviously.
Eph 2:8 states the condition clearly: we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. That is a condition.
Please quote any verse that directly and clearly indicates that God unconditionally chooses anyone for salvation.
How is one placed "in Christ"? Eph 1:13,14 tells us plainly. "having believed". That's how. That's how salvation is obtained.
This is the kind of an answer that shows the person can't defend themselves or their theology.
You know there are NO verses that say that God unconditionally chooses anyone for salvation.
Reading comprehension will prove that election is for service in EVERY verse where a purpose of such election is stated.
Again, NO verses showing that God elects for salvation.
Yet you still have no verses that say so.
To help in understanding, God has chosen believers, those who are His own children, for service.
This isn't difficult to understand. But NO ONE is elected to salvation, and certainly not unconditionally.
To be saved, one MUST believe in Christ. That is a condition.
So, to claim that people are "unconditionally elected" to salvation is to negate the very words of Scripture and Paul's answer to the jailer who asked him what he MUST DO to be saved. Paul said to "believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved".
That is a condition, quite obviously.
Eph 2:8 states the condition clearly: we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. That is a condition.
Being debated is a fur piece from being refuted.
Again, the verses you quote don't say what you think or want them to say.
The verses I provide actually DO say what I believe. And what they say refutes what you believe.
You may disagree, but truth can't be refuted. Your claims are refuted from Scripture.[/QUOTE]
Yes, that point can be debated !
Again, the verses you quote don't say what you think or want them to say.
The verses I provide actually DO say what I believe. And what they say refutes what you believe.
You may disagree, but truth can't be refuted. Your claims are refuted from Scripture.[/QUOTE]
Yes, that point can be debated !
Of course the elephant in the room is this.
How can God elect/choose someone for service.. before the person is justified?
To say we are chosen for service is quite true, because its part of being a Christian, But what is forgotten here is that election is not sanctification.
Election is neither Justification or sanctification. Yet both Justification and sanctification proceed from election.
And it is also true that we are chosen in Christ, it would be kind of silly to say otherwise, but we are each individually chosen to be Holy. So the choosing itself, leads to the individual being Holy: "But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do - 1 Peter 1:15." (the individual).
The person elected will be Justified (declared righteous), sanctified and then glorified.
Just as scripture tells us.
The whole purpose of God saving any individual is to transform them into the image of Christ. God chooses to save some people by His saving grace, therefore not giving them what they deserve..Justice! That is grace indeed!
Once God effectual changes the heart of a person, they will respond in love by faith. That's mans dutiful and loving response to God's grace!
So first God elects/chooses to save by His grace and sovereign will, He then justifies, declares those with faith Just.. etc etc.
It's so simple, but the problem is man still see's himself as sovereign. Thankfully, scripture on this point is quite clear:
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. -Romans 8:29-30.
Unconditional election just means that God's choice in choosing individuals is not based on any foreseen actions or merit of man.
How can God elect/choose someone for service.. before the person is justified?
To say we are chosen for service is quite true, because its part of being a Christian, But what is forgotten here is that election is not sanctification.
Election is neither Justification or sanctification. Yet both Justification and sanctification proceed from election.
And it is also true that we are chosen in Christ, it would be kind of silly to say otherwise, but we are each individually chosen to be Holy. So the choosing itself, leads to the individual being Holy: "But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do - 1 Peter 1:15." (the individual).
The person elected will be Justified (declared righteous), sanctified and then glorified.
Just as scripture tells us.
The whole purpose of God saving any individual is to transform them into the image of Christ. God chooses to save some people by His saving grace, therefore not giving them what they deserve..Justice! That is grace indeed!
Once God effectual changes the heart of a person, they will respond in love by faith. That's mans dutiful and loving response to God's grace!
So first God elects/chooses to save by His grace and sovereign will, He then justifies, declares those with faith Just.. etc etc.
It's so simple, but the problem is man still see's himself as sovereign. Thankfully, scripture on this point is quite clear:
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. -Romans 8:29-30.
Unconditional election just means that God's choice in choosing individuals is not based on any foreseen actions or merit of man.
Thanks and I would be looking the link
2 Tim 2:10
We have to understand this "salvation" by its context. Paul here is referring to the suffering young Timothy had to endure or patiently suffer in the ministry. Physical salvation or deliverance from the evil is coined here not the salvation of his soul and sufferings are part agencies for the salvation now and eternal glory hereafter.
2 Thes 2:13
The same, the salvation being referred to in the context is all about Satans deception.
Acts 13:48
It so happens that the verse had nothing to do with "election' to salvation, rather speaks of God's appointment of Paul's ministry to the Gentiles (v.47). The appointment "ordained" to share the gospel are those who have believed and possessed eternal life. I see that in the verse talks of those who "were" not who will.
1 Timothy 5:9 - refers to salvation before the great tribulation and that Christians will be saved from the coming wrath or judment.
2 Tim 2:10
We have to understand this "salvation" by its context. Paul here is referring to the suffering young Timothy had to endure or patiently suffer in the ministry. Physical salvation or deliverance from the evil is coined here not the salvation of his soul and sufferings are part agencies for the salvation now and eternal glory hereafter.
2 Thes 2:13
The same, the salvation being referred to in the context is all about Satans deception.
Acts 13:48
It so happens that the verse had nothing to do with "election' to salvation, rather speaks of God's appointment of Paul's ministry to the Gentiles (v.47). The appointment "ordained" to share the gospel are those who have believed and possessed eternal life. I see that in the verse talks of those who "were" not who will.
1 Timothy 5:9 - refers to salvation before the great tribulation and that Christians will be saved from the coming wrath or judment.
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FreeGrace2 said:
Please quote any verse that directly and clearly indicates that God unconditionally chooses anyone for salvation.
How is one placed "in Christ"? Eph 1:13,14 tells us plainly. "having believed". That's how. That's how salvation is obtained.
This is the kind of an answer that shows the person can't defend themselves or their theology.
You know there are NO verses that say that God unconditionally chooses anyone for salvation.
Yep, when the going gets tough, many fall by the wayside, knowing they can't handle it.
Please quote any verse that directly and clearly indicates that God unconditionally chooses anyone for salvation.
How is one placed "in Christ"? Eph 1:13,14 tells us plainly. "having believed". That's how. That's how salvation is obtained.
This is the kind of an answer that shows the person can't defend themselves or their theology.
You know there are NO verses that say that God unconditionally chooses anyone for salvation.
Yep, when the going gets tough, many fall by the wayside, knowing they can't handle it.
FreeGrace2 said:
Let's not be so dramatic. No one is denying election. What I am denying is the Calvinist claim that election is to salvation. And you STILL haven't shown any verses that say that it is.
Please at least read my post before making this kind of error.
I noted that NO ONE is denying election. And denying the Calvinist spin on election does NOT deny salvation by grace.
Let's not be so dramatic. No one is denying election. What I am denying is the Calvinist claim that election is to salvation. And you STILL haven't shown any verses that say that it is.
Please at least read my post before making this kind of error.
I noted that NO ONE is denying election. And denying the Calvinist spin on election does NOT deny salvation by grace.
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Not an elephant at all. It should be obvious to everyone, because I pointed it out, that the "us" in Eph 1:4 means believers. This is proven by v.19 which says "us who believe". There is no contextual reason to assume/presume that Paul changed what "us" refers to between v.4 and v.19.
It's true because all believers are chosen/elected for service.
Nope. I haven' forgotten. Election requires spiritual growth, which is sanctification.
No, justification precedes God's election for service.
It's a command, of course. btw, we need to understand Eph 1:4. "God chose us (believers) IN CHRIST." The capitalized words are a parenthesis, meaning "who are in Christ". Paul was making clear who he was referring to; those who are in Christ. That would be believers.
It's true because all believers are chosen/elected for service.
Nope. I haven' forgotten. Election requires spiritual growth, which is sanctification.
No, justification precedes God's election for service.
It's a command, of course. btw, we need to understand Eph 1:4. "God chose us (believers) IN CHRIST." The capitalized words are a parenthesis, meaning "who are in Christ". Paul was making clear who he was referring to; those who are in Christ. That would be believers.
Why don't we just get over this snarky kind of attitude. It doesn't benefit your argument in the least.
Well, aren't you just spiffy.
Really? OK, prove that the following verses CANNOT mean everyone, from context.
John 1:7 He (John the Baptist) came for a witness, that he might bear witness of the Light (Christ), that all (pas) might believe through him.
John 1:29 Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.
John 3:16, 17 For God so loved the world, that He gave His uniquely born Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. (17) …not to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.
John 4:42 This One is indeed the Savior of the world.
John 17:21 that they may all be one, even as thou, Father, art in Me, and I in thee, that they also may be in Us: that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me.
Luke 9:55-56
55 But He turned and rebuked them, and said, "You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. 56 For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives but to save them." And they went to another village. No mention of the "elect".
Acts 17:27 God did this (created mankind) so that men would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. (see also Heb 11:6 regarding mankind having the ability to look for God, in contrast to point 1 of Calvinism)
Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now He commands all (pas) people everywhere to repent. See also 2 Pet 3:9
Rom 5:6 In due time, when we were without strength, Christ died for the ungodly. (that’s every human), not just the “elect” per point 3 of Calvinism. Consider Rom 3:23 ‘for ALL have sinned, and come short’
Rom 11:32 For God has bound all (pas) men over to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all (pas). Cf: Rom 3:23, 6:23, Rom 5:6,8 All humans are sinful and Christ died for all of them.
Luke 19:10 "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost." In 5 point Calvinism, elect aren’t really “lost” since they were elected, so just what does this verse mean? Obviously, the entire human race is lost and is in need of a Savior. So the Son of Man came to seek and save the entire human race.
2 Cor 5:14,15 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And He died for all (pas), that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for Him who died for them and was raised again.
2 Cor 5:19 that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone (pas).
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all (pas) men. Everyone
1 Tim 1:15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners-of whom I am the worst. See Rom 3:23, 6:23 All of humanity are sinners!
1 Tim 2:3,4 This is good and pleases God our Savior, who wants all (pas) men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth (Christ-Jn 14:6, Jn 8:32, 12:32) Note the potential: Christ wants all men to be saved. The concept of limited atonement just doesn’t fly in light of this verse.
1 Tim 2:6 Who gave Himself as a ransom for all (pas) men, the testimony given in its proper time.
1 Tim 4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all (pas) men, and especially (malista) of those who believe.
Malista: chiefly, most of all, specially
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, (has not predetermined that) but everyone (pas) to come to repentance.
1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole (holos) world. Holos: all, all together, every whit, throughout, whole
Rev 22:17 Whosoever wishes, (let him) take the water of life freely. [eternal life is a free gift] and it is potential; in other words, man has free will to believe or reject God’s promise of eternal life through Christ.
1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son to be the Savior of the world.
Christ certainly did die for everyone. All these verses make that clear.
Well, aren't you just spiffy.
Really? OK, prove that the following verses CANNOT mean everyone, from context.
John 1:7 He (John the Baptist) came for a witness, that he might bear witness of the Light (Christ), that all (pas) might believe through him.
John 1:29 Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.
John 3:16, 17 For God so loved the world, that He gave His uniquely born Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. (17) …not to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.
John 4:42 This One is indeed the Savior of the world.
John 17:21 that they may all be one, even as thou, Father, art in Me, and I in thee, that they also may be in Us: that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me.
Luke 9:55-56
55 But He turned and rebuked them, and said, "You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. 56 For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives but to save them." And they went to another village. No mention of the "elect".
Acts 17:27 God did this (created mankind) so that men would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. (see also Heb 11:6 regarding mankind having the ability to look for God, in contrast to point 1 of Calvinism)
Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now He commands all (pas) people everywhere to repent. See also 2 Pet 3:9
Rom 5:6 In due time, when we were without strength, Christ died for the ungodly. (that’s every human), not just the “elect” per point 3 of Calvinism. Consider Rom 3:23 ‘for ALL have sinned, and come short’
Rom 11:32 For God has bound all (pas) men over to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all (pas). Cf: Rom 3:23, 6:23, Rom 5:6,8 All humans are sinful and Christ died for all of them.
Luke 19:10 "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost." In 5 point Calvinism, elect aren’t really “lost” since they were elected, so just what does this verse mean? Obviously, the entire human race is lost and is in need of a Savior. So the Son of Man came to seek and save the entire human race.
2 Cor 5:14,15 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And He died for all (pas), that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for Him who died for them and was raised again.
2 Cor 5:19 that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone (pas).
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all (pas) men. Everyone
1 Tim 1:15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners-of whom I am the worst. See Rom 3:23, 6:23 All of humanity are sinners!
1 Tim 2:3,4 This is good and pleases God our Savior, who wants all (pas) men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth (Christ-Jn 14:6, Jn 8:32, 12:32) Note the potential: Christ wants all men to be saved. The concept of limited atonement just doesn’t fly in light of this verse.
1 Tim 2:6 Who gave Himself as a ransom for all (pas) men, the testimony given in its proper time.
1 Tim 4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all (pas) men, and especially (malista) of those who believe.
Malista: chiefly, most of all, specially
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, (has not predetermined that) but everyone (pas) to come to repentance.
1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole (holos) world. Holos: all, all together, every whit, throughout, whole
Rev 22:17 Whosoever wishes, (let him) take the water of life freely. [eternal life is a free gift] and it is potential; in other words, man has free will to believe or reject God’s promise of eternal life through Christ.
1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son to be the Savior of the world.
Christ certainly did die for everyone. All these verses make that clear.
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Election is tied to service.
Jesus Christ is God's elect...to serve God for a particular purpose.
Israel was God's elect nation...to serve God's purpose to bring the promise seed.
Certain angels are elect...to serve God's purpose.
The Church is elect...to be in service to God.
Tribulation witness will be elect...to serve God's purposes during Jacob's Trouble
Jesus Christ is God's elect...to serve God for a particular purpose.
Israel was God's elect nation...to serve God's purpose to bring the promise seed.
Certain angels are elect...to serve God's purpose.
The Church is elect...to be in service to God.
Tribulation witness will be elect...to serve God's purposes during Jacob's Trouble
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Regarding Judas:
Jesus lovingly held open his arms and heart to Judas right to the bitter end. Judas refused to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior by himself and for his own reasons. Judas went his OWN way to his own place. Just like Cain.
God foreordains no man to damnation. Each man recieves full blame for his own damnation, and God gets full credit of glory for all those who He saves.
Acts 1:25
That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
Jesus lovingly held open his arms and heart to Judas right to the bitter end. Judas refused to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior by himself and for his own reasons. Judas went his OWN way to his own place. Just like Cain.
God foreordains no man to damnation. Each man recieves full blame for his own damnation, and God gets full credit of glory for all those who He saves.
Acts 1:25
That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
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FreeGrace2 said:
Nope. I haven' forgotten. Election requires spiritual growth, which is sanctification
With pleasure. Since election is God's choice of every believer for service, the believer must grow up spiritually in order to be maximally effective in his service to God.
Think of it this way: how well does a spiritually immature believer serve God?
Right.
Nope. I haven' forgotten. Election requires spiritual growth, which is sanctification
With pleasure. Since election is God's choice of every believer for service, the believer must grow up spiritually in order to be maximally effective in his service to God.
Think of it this way: how well does a spiritually immature believer serve God?
Right.
Grandpa said:
No, its not too difficult to explain.
Its too difficult for you to understand.
I was being nice with my wording.
Usually, the Calvinist will argue that "all" doesn't always mean everyone, and they indiscriminately use that line of thought in EVERY verse that says that Christ died for all.
However, in EVERY one of those verses, there is no context to support the idea of a subgroup of everyone in humanity. But that doesn't seem to slow them down at all.
No, its not too difficult to explain.
Its too difficult for you to understand.
I was being nice with my wording.
Usually, the Calvinist will argue that "all" doesn't always mean everyone, and they indiscriminately use that line of thought in EVERY verse that says that Christ died for all.
However, in EVERY one of those verses, there is no context to support the idea of a subgroup of everyone in humanity. But that doesn't seem to slow them down at all.