How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[TheDivineWatermark]

About the word "parousia"...

For those who believe the text of 2Th2 chapter is speaking of FUTURE events (I believe I recall "presidente" [member] believes it is now PAST from our perspective)... but for those who believe 2Th2 passage is speaking of FUTURE events, how do you see this word as applied to the "man of sin" (per 2Th2:9a), IOW, what do you believe it means regarding his/the man of sin's "parousia"?


At Bible Hub - (quoting below)
[re: G3952 - parousia (see 2Th2:9a re: the man of sin, and this word used with regard to him)]


HELPS Word-studies
3952 parousía (from parōn, "be present, arrive to enter into a situation") – properly, coming, especially the arrival of the owner who alone can deal with a situation (cf. LS). 3952 (parousía) is a "technical term with reference to the visit of a king or some other official, 'a royal visit' " (Souter) – "hence, in the NT, specifically of the Advent or Parousia of Christ" (A-S).

[3952 (parousía) is "used in the east as a technical expression for the royal visit of a king, or emperor. The word means literally 'the being beside,' thus, 'the personal presence' " (K. Wuest, 3, Bypaths, 33).]

-- https://biblehub.com/greek/3952.htm






...where is he/the man of sin coming to and then leaving back to (and how briefly will he be "on the scene" of what verse 9a is speaking toward?? and its context, of course)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[...] 1 Thessalonians agrees with 2 Thess agrees with [...]

OF COURSE it does...

...and Paul had already stated in 1Th5:2-3 that "the DOTL" ARRIVES... "EXACTLY LIKE" the SUDDEN / UNEXPECTED first "BIRTH PANG [SINGULAR]" that comes upon a woman... (Jesus spoke of those very "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" in His Olivet Discourse!!)...

... but what you are trying to suggest (it seems to me) is that it ("the DOTL") arrives at the END OF ALL OF THOSE.

NOT!






[this is a matter of grasping the CHRONOLOGY]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@presidente

TDW:
"--in scripture, in contexts where the phrases 'the day of the Lord' and 'in that day' are used in proximity, they are referring to the same time-period"

Agree or Disagree? Explain why.

You would have to be more specific-- and not litter the message with bolds, caps, and underlines so I can understand what you are saying.

.....

 

[DavidTree]

OF COURSE it does...

...and Paul had already stated in 1Th5:2-3 that "the DOTL" ARRIVES... "EXACTLY LIKE" the SUDDEN / UNEXPECTED first "BIRTH PANG [SINGULAR]" that comes upon a woman... (Jesus spoke of those very "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" in His Olivet Discourse!!)...

... but what you are trying to suggest (it seems to me) is that it ("the DOTL") arrives at the END OF ALL OF THOSE.

NOT!






[this is a matter of grasping the CHRONOLOGY]

If you are unable to grasp what is Ordered by the Lord, "by the word of the Lord" - how are you going to grasp 'CHRONOLOGY'?

 

[Jamison]

Jesus told us all things. look to his words for an answer. in matt. mark, and Luke he spoke of the beginning of sorrows. But the end is not yet. John also told in Revelations from Johns hereafter, the 4 horsemen. which are the same events that has been happening since. The horsemen went out and will ride until Jesus hour. Then the wrath. in the days of the voice of the 7th trumpet when it shall begin to sound the mystery of God will be finished. Then his kingdom, that is in the hearts of men will be delivered up to God. and so shall we ever be with the Lord. At the last trumpet his kingdom comes, and the 7th vial his will be done, and it will be on earth as it is in heaven. minus the devil, for 1000 years. The second come up hither when the voice from heaven calls the 2 witnesses up. Then the 7th trumpet sounds. and then the harvest in to meet the LORD in the air. The wrath of God also begins at the 7th trump. and Jesus will tread the winepress of the wrath of God. use the Words in the Word of God. Or if you add Words, God will add unto you the plagues that are written in the book of revelation.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[ @DavidTree 's Post #364 ]

I see your MO is "avoidance"... in your completely avoiding addressing the question(s) I posed to you in my Posts #355 and #358.

Have a good day, sir.

 

[DavidTree]

[ @DavidTree 's Post #364 ]

I see your MO is "avoidance"... in your completely avoiding addressing the question(s) I posed to you in my Posts #355 and #358.

Have a good day, sir.

What am i avoiding? the answers you seek are in His Word which i post for you and others to read and believe.

i will look again at your posts #355 and #358 - thank you

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

2 Thess ch 2, same author(the Holy Spirit) with more detail = "our being gathered together in Him....will not come until..."

Until when??? =

For the readers (and DavidTree if he's listening ), the text in this passage does NOT say what the above (in bold ^ ) is saying.

DavidTree is completely skipping back OVER AND PAST [BYPASSING / IGNORING] verse 2's Subject, to explain what v.3a's "that day [will not come until]" is speaking of.




Verse 2 has to do with the msg that the false conveyors were [or could even "potentially" ever be] purporting, "that the DAY OF THE LORD is present / is already here [perfect indicative]"... which is a very lengthy earthly-located TIME-PERIOD which is NOT defined as "Rapture [IN THE AIR]" (PAUL's own v.1 distinct Subject);


When ascertaining what v.3a means by "that day [will not be present, if not shall have...]," we must understand what it was that the false claim IN VERSE 2 was saying "IS PRESENT" (coz it is THIS that Paul starts out speaking of in v.3a--the Subject of the IMMEDIATELY PRECEEDING verse [v.2!], grammatically speaking).

People very often skip back OVER AND PAST v.2 to [incorrectly] define "that day" in v.3a... thus missing what it is that Paul is actually conveying in this text. Note how DavidTree is doing that very thing, in his quote above (bolded). That is not "exegesis"... it's pasting together one's own thoughts regarding the text, instead of letting IT tell US what it's saying (it's NOT saying THAT ^ [his quote])





[again, "Rapture [IN THE AIR]" or "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" (v.1) is NOT the SAME THING whatsoever as "the DOTL" (v.2) which is an earthly-located TIME PERIOD]

 

[DavidTree]

For the readers (and DavidTree if he's listening ), the text in this passage does NOT say what the above (in bold ^ ) is saying.

DavidTree is completely skipping back OVER AND PAST verse 2's Subject, to explain what v.3a's "that day [will not come until]" is speaking of.




Verse 2 has to do with the msg that the false conveyors were [or could even "potentially" ever be] purporting, "that the DAY OF THE LORD is present / is already here [perfect indicative]"... which is a very lengthy earthly-located TIME-PERIOD which is NOT defined as "Rapture [IN THE AIR]" (PAUL's own v.1 distinct Subject);


When ascertaining what v.3a means by "that day [will not be present, if not shall have...]," we must understand what it was that the false claim IN VERSE 2 was saying "IS PRESENT" (coz it is THIS that Paul starts out speaking of in v.3a--the Subject of the IMMEDIATELY PRECEEDING verse [v.2!], grammatically speaking).

People very often skip back OVER AND PAST v.2 to [incorrectly] define "that day" in v.3a... thus missing what it is that Paul is actually conveying in this text. Note how DavidTree is doing that very thing, in his quote above (bolded). That is not "exegesis"... it's pasting together one's own thoughts regarding the text, instead of letting IT tell US what it's saying (it's NOT saying THAT ^ [his quote])

lol x10 this is too funny

 

[DavidTree]

There is One Author - God, who has spoken to us through the Lord and by the Holy Spirit which penned the Word through holy men of God.
knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:20


The same author (the Holy Spirit speaking through the Apostle Paul) speaks of the same exact Second Coming.
Only one and the same Second Coming spoken of in 1 Thessalonians as in 2 Thessalonians .

1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18
Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.
By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
Therefore encourage one another with these words.

The Apostle Paul pens a 'Second' letter to inform His Church at Thessalonica ( and us) with irrefutable detail on the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul writes this 'Second' time to correct false reports/doctrines(pre-trib) and gives to Thess and us more detail/info - again on the Second Coming of Christ.
Therefore, His first letter will be the SAME as the Second Letter but with more detail.

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

SAME message as in 1 Thess = His Second Coming and our "being gathered together in Him".

2 Thess ch 2, same author(the Holy Spirit) with more detail = "our being gathered together in Him....will not come until..."

Until when??? = "until the rebellion occurs and man of lawlessness, the son of destruction is revealed."

The Holy Spirit condemns the lie of pre-trib rapture = "alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come."

These ar ethe various pre-trib errors throughout the years and they continually morph and adapt as each one is exposed.
Pre-trib alleges that there will be a secret rapture/pre-trib rapture/more then one rapture.
Pre-trib teaches some will be 'left behind'
Pre-trib teaches rapture before the first resurrection

The Holy Spirit knowing this, inspired Paul to write and give us a CLEAR definitive timing of our Lord's Second Coming.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 No rapture will take place until the Resurrection.

2 Thessalonians 2
The Resurrection/ 'our gathering together in Him' will not take place until the man of destruction is revealed.

Simple eschatology 101

WARNING: God's Word is for Children - His Children.
Smart people mess it all up and try to fix things by 'adding to and taking away' from His words. Proverbs 30: 5-6

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Nowhere in scripture is "the day of the Lord" DEFINED as "Rapture [IN THE AIR]" or "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM".



No. "The day of the Lord" is ALWAYS "earthly-located".


It was THIS (the Subject of v.2; the FALSE CLAIM's Subject) that Paul's v.3a starts out saying "[it--that TIME PERIOD from v.2!!--i.e. 'that day'] will not be present, if not shall have come..." [if not shall have come ONE THING *FIRST*]

 

[DavidTree]

Nowhere in scripture is "the day of the Lord" DEFINED as "Rapture [IN THE AIR]" or "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM".



No. "The day of the Lord" is ALWAYS "earthly-located".


It was THIS (the Subject of v.2; the FALSE CLAIM's Subject) that Paul's v.3a starts out saying "[it--that TIME PERIOD from v.2!!--i.e. 'that day'] will not be present, if not shall have come..." [one thing *FIRST*]

You are dreadfully confused and are being used by the spirit of error.
Are you a jehovah witness?
For they exhibit the same tendency of 'adding to and taking away' from Scripture to support their religious beliefs.

2 Thessalonians ch 2 is in Revelation starting with the mark

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@DavidTree ,

Please biblically define the phrase "the Day of the Lord" (the SUBJECT that the false conveyors [v.2] were PURPORTING "is present / is already here [perfect indicative]")

What does that phrase (in the bold ^ ) refer to??

Please tell the readers of this thread how you are defining that phrase.


WHAT WAS IT that the "false claim" purported (i.e. what it MEANT for them to SAY this--re: "the Day of the Lord")?


Thank you




[Paul wrote of it in 1Th5:2-3]

 

[DavidTree]

@DavidTree ,

Please biblically define the phrase "the Day of the Lord" (the SUBJECT that the false conveyors [v.2] were PURPORTING "is present / is already here [perfect indicative]")

What does that phrase (in the bold ^ ) refer to??

Please tell the readers of this thread how you are defining it.

Thank you

Scripture cannot lie - Scripture defines itself and corrects false doctrine.
Go find the First Resurrection in Revelation and you will find the Rapture of our being gathered together in Him.

Here is a Clue:
And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”
Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.
Revelation 6: 9-11

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@DavidTree ,

Please biblically define the phrase "the Day of the Lord" (the SUBJECT that the false conveyors [v.2] were PURPORTING "is present / is already here [perfect indicative]")

What does that phrase (in the bold ^ ) refer to??

Please tell the readers of this thread how you are defining that phrase.


WHAT WAS IT that the "false claim" purported [v.2] (i.e. what it MEANT for them to SAY this--re: "the Day of the Lord")?


Thank you




[Paul wrote of it in 1Th5:2-3]

____________


How does the BIBLE ITSELF define that phrase?? "THE DAY OF THE LORD" [v.2]




[I am not asking you to define "Rapture" nor "Resurrection" nor "our gathering-together unto Him". I'm asking you to biblically define "THE DAY OF THE LORD" (v.2)]

 

[DavidTree]

How can you understand the Day of the Lord when you cannot believe His word - 1 Thess and 2 Thess and 1 John and the Gospels and Revelation.

Go find the First Resurrection in Revelation. This will help you unless you twist Scripture again.

All my posts with Scripture are easy to read and understand - no special words needed.

 

[rayzor]

You haven't demonstrated a contradiction. Do you think Scripture contradicts itself?

"The law of the LORD is perfect, restoring the soul" (Ps 19:7)

perfect yes but god is not a book...bibles r perfect but not in the academic sense..The law that's talk about in that scripture is gods spirit....This is a scripture to. The simple believe every word but the wise consider whats said.So you believe that money is the answer to all things just because its written in the bible?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

2 Thessalonians ch 2 is in Revelation starting with the mark

You mean at Rev13 (when "42 months" [roughly 3.5yrs] are yet remaining until Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19)??

I disagree that 2Th2 is only covering that amount.

Paul, in 2Th2, is covering the ENTIRE "7 years" in 2Th2--not merely the "42 mos / 3.5yrs" from the point in time of what 2Th2:4 is pointing to ["who... SITTETH" (and when the "mark" will also begin to be implemented)]
--but Paul (in 2Th2) is covering even way back further than THAT point to when [re: "the man of sin"] the "whose COMING [/ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / parousia]" takes place 2Th2:9a ["IN HIS TIME" v.6]... which at the START of the "7 years" (not at its MIDDLE).

We know this by comparing a number of other passages that I've already pointed out in past posts (so won't fill this post with them--they are many).




[1Th5:2-3 among them... ("IN THE NIGHT / DARK / DARKNESS" time period)]

 

[DavidTree]

You mean at Rev13 (when "42 months" [roughly 3.5yrs] are yet remaining until Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19)??

I disagree that 2Th2 is only covering that amount.

Paul, in 2Th2, is covering the ENTIRE "7 years" in 2Th2--not merely the "42 mos / 3.5yrs" from the point in time of what 2Th2:4 is pointing to ["who... SITTETH" (and when the "mark" will also begin to be implemented)]
--but Paul (in 2Th2) is covering even way back further than THAT point to when [re: "the man of sin"] the "whose COMING [/ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / parousia]" takes place 2Th2:9a ["IN HIS TIME" v.6]... which at the START of the "7 years" (not at its MIDDLE).

We know this by comparing a number of other passages that I've already pointed out in past posts (so won't fill this post with them--they are many).




[1Th5:2-3 among them... ("IN THE NIGHT / DARK / DARKNESS" time period)]

2 Thess 2 - Paul writes about the man of sin, and our Lord confirms this in His Revelation ch 13

Now - did you find the First Resurrection in Revelation?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

2 Thess 2 - Paul writes about the man of sin, and our Lord confirms this in His Revelation ch 13

2Th2:4 "who... SITTETH" (parallel Rev13:5-7) is not the first action (on the world-scene) of the "man of sin / ac"...

... his "whose COMING [/ ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / parousia]" is

(and that is much earlier than the MID-point that Rev13:5-7 is referencing)





[nobody is arguing that Paul writes about the "man of sin" in his MID-point actions (2:4); but his actions (on the world-scene) commence WELL-PRIOR to that point! (2Th2:9a, etc)--Paul is covering THAT point in the chronology ALSO]