Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[Blain]

I only need one statement from Jesus to know I am saved eternally John10:28-29 …28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand. 29My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”…
We are given eternal life think about the word eternal it is everlasting without limit it doesn't dissapear or go backwards it goes forth without limit
Think of the word salvation it means to be rescued to be found and saved when we were once lost alone and abandoned
in all of my time as a believer I have fallen strayed and fallen short-very short but never once did his presence leave me never once was I alone not a single time did I lose my salvation even though I more than earned that punishment

I am in my eyes the chief of sinners I have wrought filth and sin on my name yet whenever I only see a filthy disgusting worm I feel his gentle hands around me whenever I think I am lower than the earth that the worms eat I hear his voice say to me I am beloved and a beautiful treasure whenever I think I am going to hell his spirit tells me I will reign with kings. trust me if one could lose their salvation I would have lost mine long ago I more than deserve it but that is why I am all the more grateful and amazed by him

 

[fredoheaven]

Hey all, we should have changed the title of the thread into " Work salvationist debunked"

 

[Omegatime]

It is well, It is well with my soul

 

[Gideon300]

There are three legs upon which OSAS stands or falls. Do these verses mean what they supposedly mean, or have they been misunderstood and misapplied? When we examine them next to other scriptures that clearly contradict them will they hold up? Let's see.

First, 1 John 2:19—"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

The OSAS interpretation of this verse says that those who "went out" were never in Christ to begin with; they were never saved. However, I suggest there's another meaning that conforms very well with other scriptures. This view says that those who "went out" were indeed saved and in Christ at one point, but were simply not as committed as the others. It's in this sense that they were not "of us." These are those spoken of in the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:5-6): "Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away." It sprang up, it had life to start with; but it "withered away."

Jesus' explanation of this passage is found in Matthew 13:20-21—"As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away."

Second is 1 John 3:6—"No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him."

This seems pretty cut and dried: if someone turns away back into sin they never knew Him. But we have to understand this in light of other scriptures that contradict it. Those who "never knew Him," never had a proper understanding of Him. This corresponds to the first group in the parable of the sower: "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart." The seed was "sown in his heart," but was snatched away because of this person's lack of understanding.

Third is John 10:28—"I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." I agree with this verse: no one can indeed snatch them out of His hand. However, the person himself can walk away. For this reason I prefer the phrase "forfeit salvation" to "lose salvation."

Now let's look at some scriptures that plainly talk about walking away and falling away. I'm not going to use Hebrews because Hebrews is fiercely objected to by those who advocate OSAS, even though is has many relevant warnings about falling away. But Hebrews isn't necessary—there are plenty of others.

2 Peter 2:20-21—"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them."

This passage clearly illustrates a person who was once in Christ but who turned their back on Him. This shows a conscious action on the part of the one turning back. These verses correspond with Luke 9:26: "Jesus said to him, 'No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.' "

Matthew 24:10—"And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another."

1 Timothy 4:1—"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons."

Matthew 24:13—"But the one who endures to the end will be saved."

Why say that those who endure to the end will be saved? If one cannot forfeit their salvation, why didn't He say "But all who have prayed the sinners prayer will be saved?"

Luke 9:26—"Jesus said to him, 'No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.' "

Already mentioned, Luke 9:26 is a clear warning from the Lord about falling away.

As always, the confusion arises from the definition of salvation. I note that OSAS critics never quote verses that support OSAS, of which there are many. If you want to know what I mean, ask me. I've been over this too many times to be bothered any more. In summary, you are wrong.

 

[Gideon300]

He did use another word, endure. The one who endures to the end will be saved.

Wrong understanding of salvation. Of which there are two. Try using "delivered" instead of saved and think of the initial salvation as being born again.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm not trusting in works.

My hands are clean.

yet you say this?

Of course our salvation depends on our works.[ /quote]

Come on man, In trying to refute my faith you just prove my faith by contradicting yourself

 

[Rondonmon]

There are three legs upon which OSAS stands or falls. Do these verses mean what they supposedly mean, or have they been misunderstood and misapplied? When we examine them next to other scriptures that clearly contradict them will they hold up? Let's see.

First, 1 John 2:19—"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

The OSAS interpretation of this verse says that those who "went out" were never in Christ to begin with; they were never saved. However, I suggest there's another meaning that conforms very well with other scriptures. This view says that those who "went out" were indeed saved and in Christ at one point, but were simply not as committed as the others. It's in this sense that they were not "of us." These are those spoken of in the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:5-6): "Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away." It sprang up, it had life to start with; but it "withered away."

Jesus' explanation of this passage is found in Matthew 13:20-21—"As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away."

Second is 1 John 3:6—"No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him."

This seems pretty cut and dried: if someone turns away back into sin they never knew Him. But we have to understand this in light of other scriptures that contradict it. Those who "never knew Him," never had a proper understanding of Him. This corresponds to the first group in the parable of the sower: "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart." The seed was "sown in his heart," but was snatched away because of this person's lack of understanding.

Third is John 10:28—"I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." I agree with this verse: no one can indeed snatch them out of His hand. However, the person himself can walk away. For this reason I prefer the phrase "forfeit salvation" to "lose salvation."

Now let's look at some scriptures that plainly talk about walking away and falling away. I'm not going to use Hebrews because Hebrews is fiercely objected to by those who advocate OSAS, even though is has many relevant warnings about falling away. But Hebrews isn't necessary—there are plenty of others.

2 Peter 2:20-21—"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them."

This passage clearly illustrates a person who was once in Christ but who turned their back on Him. This shows a conscious action on the part of the one turning back. These verses correspond with Luke 9:26: "Jesus said to him, 'No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.' "

Matthew 24:10—"And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another."

1 Timothy 4:1—"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons."

Matthew 24:13—"But the one who endures to the end will be saved."

Why say that those who endure to the end will be saved? If one cannot forfeit their salvation, why didn't He say "But all who have prayed the sinners prayer will be saved?"

Luke 9:26—"Jesus said to him, 'No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.' "

Already mentioned, Luke 9:26 is a clear warning from the Lord about falling away.

Technically you are correct that you can turn away from Chrisy, but you are also in error by DEFINITION, via the once Saved and Akwats Saved.

IF you wind up in hell, you were NEVER SAVED (LOL, see my point).

It's like Tennesse being ahead of Bama 17-0 at halftime, people would say they are "WINNING" but if they lose 27-17, then they were NECER WINNING, they were losing (AHEAD) 17-0 at halftime, LOL.

So, I agree, people can be of the Lord and then turn from the Lord back unto Satan, but if you do not make Heaven's pearly gates, you were NEVER SAVED.

For European Futbal fans, if Man U. leads Real Madrid 1-0 they were not WINNING 1-0 at the half but LOSING 1-0 if they eventually get beat 3-1.

 

[Magenta]

They were allus dogs and sows
2Peter 2-20
For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ they are again entangled in them and overpowered the last state has become worse than the first
For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.

These words would have suited Judas Iscariot perfectly. Peter echoes Jesu's word it would have been better he had never been born.

Judas was never saved.

Hello Evmur I certainly agree that Judas was never saved... and it somewhat boggles my mind that there are those who argue against that However, Peter does not quite echo Jesus' words, there, as he simply says it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness, though it does seem to be a clear corollary. Moreover, I do very strongly lean toward believing that the people who fall away were never born again in the first place. They are like Judas, with the outward appearance of following, while their hearts have never surrendered to God, in maintaining their allegiance to worldly/sinful matters.

 

[Magenta]

It is well, It is well with my soul

It Is Well

 

[NOV25]

Romans 8:26-30

[26] Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. [27] And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. [28] And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. [29] For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [30] And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Understanding how salvation occurs will help those who struggle with “osas”…

 

[glen55]

There are three legs upon which OSAS stands or falls. Do these verses mean what they supposedly mean, or have they been misunderstood and misapplied? When we examine them next to other scriptures that clearly contradict them will they hold up? Let's see.

First, 1 John 2:19—"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

The OSAS interpretation of this verse says that those who "went out" were never in Christ to begin with; they were never saved. However, I suggest there's another meaning that conforms very well with other scriptures. This view says that those who "went out" were indeed saved and in Christ at one point, but were simply not as committed as the others. It's in this sense that they were not "of us." These are those spoken of in the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:5-6): "Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away." It sprang up, it had life to start with; but it "withered away."

Jesus' explanation of this passage is found in Matthew 13:20-21—"As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away."

Second is 1 John 3:6—"No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him."

This seems pretty cut and dried: if someone turns away back into sin they never knew Him. But we have to understand this in light of other scriptures that contradict it. Those who "never knew Him," never had a proper understanding of Him. This corresponds to the first group in the parable of the sower: "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart." The seed was "sown in his heart," but was snatched away because of this person's lack of understanding.

Third is John 10:28—"I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." I agree with this verse: no one can indeed snatch them out of His hand. However, the person himself can walk away. For this reason I prefer the phrase "forfeit salvation" to "lose salvation."

Now let's look at some scriptures that plainly talk about walking away and falling away. I'm not going to use Hebrews because Hebrews is fiercely objected to by those who advocate OSAS, even though is has many relevant warnings about falling away. But Hebrews isn't necessary—there are plenty of others.

2 Peter 2:20-21—"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them."

This passage clearly illustrates a person who was once in Christ but who turned their back on Him. This shows a conscious action on the part of the one turning back. These verses correspond with Luke 9:26: "Jesus said to him, 'No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.' "

Matthew 24:10—"And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another."

1 Timothy 4:1—"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons."

Matthew 24:13—"But the one who endures to the end will be saved."

Why say that those who endure to the end will be saved? If one cannot forfeit their salvation, why didn't He say "But all who have prayed the sinners prayer will be saved?"

Luke 9:26—"Jesus said to him, 'No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.' "

Already mentioned, Luke 9:26 is a clear warning from the Lord about falling away.

Yea Saul wouldn't and Paul was so its easy to think some are lost by reading like Saul.

 

[glen55]

Paul knew it was all allegory and Imagination was God in man not classic theology Saul and all sons of man are blind about thinking like sons of God in them, Phil 2:5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Not many thinking like Paul, Saul was thinking like sons of man lots do.

 

[mindfulzen]

Hello Evmur I certainly agree that Judas was never saved... and it somewhat boggles my mind that there are those who argue against that However, Peter does not quite echo Jesus' words, there, as he simply says it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness, though it does seem to be a clear corollary. Moreover, I do very strongly lean toward believing that the people who fall away were never born again in the first place. They are like Judas, with the outward appearance of following, while their hearts have never surrendered to God, in maintaining their allegiance to worldly/sinful matters.

Judas was saved. Saved for a short while, after his heart changed when Jesus kissed him and told him that he knew he was the one who betrayed him, and thanked him for it. So Gods will could be done. After that it was all up to Judas how to act. He got faith at that moment. Whatever happened after that, I will not judge. You mention two of the most important figures in Jesus life, who failed Jesus for the word of God to be done. So how can you judge? Jesus was gone when they met their faith, you only have word of man after that. Not their dialogues with Jesus. Do we know their inner monologue? Do we know their hearts after Jesus was gone?

 

[Magenta]

Judas was saved. Saved for a short while, after his heart changed when Jesus kissed him and told him that he knew he was the one who betrayed him, and thanked him for it. So Gods will could be done. After that it was all up to Judas how to act. He got faith at that moment. Whatever happened after that, I will not judge. You mention two of the most important figures in Jesus life, who failed Jesus for the word of God to be done. So how can you judge? Jesus was gone when they met their faith, you only have word of man after that. Not their dialogues with Jesus. Do we know their inner monologue? Do we know their hearts after Jesus was gone?

Jesus knew before Judas betrayed him who it was going to be. He knew the hearts of men and that Judas was doomed to destruction. Don't make stuff up and pretend it is written when it is not. Judas' heart changed? Since when??? Him hanging himself was no act of coming to faith.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Judas was saved. Saved for a short while, after his heart changed when Jesus kissed him and told him that he knew he was the one who betrayed him, and thanked him for it. So Gods will could be done. After that it was all up to Judas how to act. He got faith at that moment. Whatever happened after that, I will not judge.

The Bible gives us all the information to base a judgment on Judas.

John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

The Greek word for "perdition" is from 'appolumi'-
apóleia: destruction, loss
Original Word: ἀπώλεια, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apóleia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-o'-li-a)
Definition: destruction, loss
Usage: destruction, ruin, loss, perishing; eternal ruin.

It is clear Jesus knew he would end in eternal ruin. And He admits He only "lost one", which is Judas.

So, Judas was never saved. Where does the Bible indicate that Judas was "saved for a short while"?

Thanks.

 

[mindfulzen]

The Bible gives us all the information to base a judgment on Judas.

John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

The Greek word for "perdition" is from 'appolumi'-
apóleia: destruction, loss
Original Word: ἀπώλεια, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apóleia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-o'-li-a)
Definition: destruction, loss
Usage: destruction, ruin, loss, perishing; eternal ruin.

It is clear Jesus knew he would end in eternal ruin. And He admits He only "lost one", which is Judas.

So, Judas was never saved. Where does the Bible indicate that Judas was "saved for a short while"?

Thanks.

OK, but I do not see Judas mentioned by name or indicated. And I said that Judas was saved by the kiss, what he did after that, was up to him. Jesus knew how his mortal life would end, of course, In torment, not in ruin. His torment built Gods castle on earth. Judas was not the only one who turned away, remember Peter? Who faought for Jesus after the romans got him? None really, apart from some of the women who could not fight for him physical. Judas response, I do not know, because Jesus was gone after that, but he was offered salvation by Jesus. Judas had a choice, he was offered two chances, that is how much Jesus loved him, toss away the illgotten money and pray forgiveness and it would be granted if the heart is pure.

Nice definition thing, but do the perditionroute. It seems to be Judas, but could be others. And does not change the fact that Judas was offered a chance. Jesus forgave him. He thanked him for it too. Thank you for the job.

 

[mindfulzen]

Jesus knew before Judas betrayed him who it was going to be. He knew the hearts of men and that Judas was doomed to destruction. Don't make stuff up and pretend it is written when it is not. Judas' heart changed? Since when??? Him hanging himself was no act of coming to faith.

That is kind of my point, Jesus forgave, Judas acted wrong after that. Jesus did what he could. Judas chose for himself, what have I made up?

 

[rayzor]

That is kind of my point, Jesus forgave, Judas acted wrong after that. Jesus did what he could. Judas chose for himself, what have I made up?

most of that is not correct.

 

[FreeGrace2]

OK, but I do not see Judas mentioned by name or indicated.

Of the 12, who else could Jesus be referring to, other than the betrayer himself??

And I said that Judas was saved by the kiss

Yes, you did. But how do you come up with that conclusion, based on a kiss? It was that very kiss that betrayed Jesus.

what he did after that, was up to him. Jesus knew how his mortal life would end, of course, In torment, not in ruin.

Jesus referred to Judas as the "son of perdition" in John 17:12.

His torment built Gods castle on earth.

What kind of hype is this? How do you come to your claims?

Judas was not the only one who turned away, remember Peter?[/QUOTE]
It is obvious in the Scripture that immediately AFTER the cock crowed that Peter remembered what Jesus said about him. He didn't lose his salvation over it. And he clearly repented and became one of the most vocal of the apostles. So don't lump Peter and Judas in the same pile.

Who faought for Jesus after the romans got him? None really, apart from some of the women who could not fight for him physicalLY.

Irrelevant.

Judas response, I do not know, because Jesus was gone after that

The Bible reveals he has remorse, but no repentance. Knowing that Jesus was innocent isn't salvation. That's as far as Judas got.

but he was offered salvation by Jesus. Judas had a choice, he was offered two chances, that is how much Jesus loved him, toss away the illgotten money and pray forgiveness and it would be granted if the heart is pure.

I wonder where you get to your conclusions from. 2 chances?? Really? How long was Judas with Jesus and the 11? Nearly 3.5 yrs.

Nice definition thing, but do the perditionroute.

What does this mean?

It seems to be Judas, but could be others. And does not change the fact that Judas was offered a chance. Jesus forgave him. He thanked him for it too. Thank you for the job.

Please show me where Jesus forgave Judas and Judas thanked Him for it. Regardless, none of that equals salvation anyway.

 

[mindfulzen]

most of that is not correct.

How is it not correct that Jesus gave Judas another chance and Judas blew it? Kind of a big point in the bible.