Genesis 4:5

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oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#21
“In the course of time.” Literally, “at the end of days.” What is the end of days suggested by the context? What would contextually mark this particular course of time?

1. Popular options

a. The end of a seven-day period.
b. The anniversary of the end of creation. The problem with both of these theories is that they cannot be arrived from the contents of the context.

2. The only temporal indicator offered by the text is that of the time of harvest. Thus, the course of time from one harvest to the next. We know this because of the type of sacrifice both men are offering. “And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord. And Abel, he ALSO brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof.”
3. Both men are offering the offering the same sacrifice - the offering of first-fruits, one of the flock and one of the earth. Both are legitimate sacrifices. Cain, being a tiller of the ground naturally offers the first-fruit of his crop. Being a keeper of the flock, Able offers his first-fruit of the flock. What implications can we generalize from Able offering up the fat portions of his sacrifice?

a. That the offering of sacrifice had already been regulated by both time and procedure.

* It was offered at the proper time - “at the end of days.”
* There is no separation of the fat from the sacrifice. It was offered up as a whole sacrifice.

b. That sacrifices were a matter of instruction. How did they know to offer these sacrifices and how these sacrifices were to be offered in such a way that would be acceptable to the Lord? This instruction had to be revealed instruction. Even if they received the practice from their father, Adam still had to have received it from the Lord.
c. Clearly, this was not their first sacrifice.
d. This also offers the possibility that other types of animal sacrifices were also being offered that did not require the separation of the fat portions.

4. There are no indicators from the text that the sacrifice of Able had any connection to atonement or even contrition. In other words, this is not a sin sacrifice.

a. There is no sprinkling of blood mentioned.
b. There is no removal of the intestines or the refuse mentioned.
This is a sacrifice of thanksgiving. Cain offered his first-fruits as a matter of thanksgiving. This is the nature if any first-fruit offering. The text says that Able ALSO of his first. Both men are offering the same sacrifice. Why then was Cain's sacrifice not accepted? This rejection seems to stem from Cain's relationship with his brother.
 

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
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#22
This is a sacrifice of thanksgiving. Cain offered his first-fruits as a matter of thanksgiving. This is the nature if any first-fruit offering. The text says that Able ALSO of his first. Both men are offering the same sacrifice. Why then was Cain's sacrifice not accepted? This rejection seems to stem from Cain's relationship with his brother
Abel could have offered up the best of the wool he gathered from his sheep...

But he didn't...

That was what would have been expected...he went beyond...way beyond.
 

Diakonos

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2019
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#23
This would be going beyond what is written and going beyond the "common knowledge" of the era and culture that the scriptures were written in.
“By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous" (Hebrews 11:4, NASB95)

It was a matter of faith that distinguished Abel's offering from Cain's.
Abel's offering was by faith, Cain's was not.
 

Katia

Active member
Aug 29, 2021
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#24
“By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous" (Hebrews 11:4, NASB95)

It was a matter of faith that distinguished Abel's offering from Cain's.
Abel's offering was by faith, Cain's was not.
It is doubtful to me that we actually know those things about Cain and Abel.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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#25
I'm sorry, I get overcome by emotion at times and can not think straight. I love God and his work but I am not God and frequently what is going on around me is beyond my understanding. At these times I feel like weeping in sorrow for the lost.
sister we all have many flaws , the only difference is you are honest about it and many hide it to project themselves as righteous and complete

We all have emotions they overcome us at times , and that’s human it’s not as if Jesus doesn’t get that your flawed at certain points and the thing is he loves you anyways like you haven’t a flaw upon you

you know what ? Of we weren’t all pretty flawed Jesus would not have come and died for us he only did that because every one of us is and he wants us anyways .

that’s what makes Jesus the one true God he doesn’t tell us to climb to heaven and then we can be saved , he jumped into Our mess with us and does for the things we weren’t able to do right and still struggle with as we start walking after him

no ones worthy , apart from him and that to me is a very encouraging hope God loves us not because we’re worthy but because he’s that good , to love us at our worst and love us to our best

you are exactly where I am and many others don’t care to acknowledge a sister in the lord and beloved of God

just hear him and forget the other voices and he’ll do the rest God bless and keep you in Jesus name ❤️
 

Diakonos

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2019
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#26
It is doubtful to me that we actually know those things about Cain and Abel.
In case you didn’t notice, what I have described are the fundamental principles that outline faith and offerings of faith. The Bible distinguishes Abel’s offering from Cain’s offering as one that was done “by faith”.

My description of Cain’s offering is that it lacked the component of faith.
To establish common ground, would you agree with that?
 

Katia

Active member
Aug 29, 2021
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#27
In case you didn’t notice, what I have described are the fundamental principles that outline faith and offerings of faith. The Bible distinguishes Abel’s offering from Cain’s offering as one that was done “by faith”.

My description of Cain’s offering is that it lacked the component of faith.
To establish common ground, would you agree with that?
I obey God because of who he is and I am accepting that I will not always understand his actions. I am going to go read that story, and pray to see if it feels better.
 

Katia

Active member
Aug 29, 2021
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#28
I did read the incident and still do not understand it. I am not questioning God. I am not God.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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#29
I did read the incident and still do not understand it. I am not questioning God. I am not God.
what part are you struggling with ?

“And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof.

And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering: But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭4:4-8‬ ‭

Cain rejected Gods word and followed sin instead and killed his brother God foresaw it in cains heart is why he warned him
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#30
In case you didn’t notice, what I have described are the fundamental principles that outline faith and offerings of faith. The Bible distinguishes Abel’s offering from Cain’s offering as one that was done “by faith”.

My description of Cain’s offering is that it lacked the component of faith.
To establish common ground, would you agree with that?
Without faith it is impossible to please God :)
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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#31
Without faith it is impossible to please God :)
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭4:6-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 

Katia

Active member
Aug 29, 2021
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#32
what part are you struggling with ?

“And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof.

And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering: But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭4:4-8‬ ‭

Cain rejected Gods word and followed sin instead and killed his brother God foresaw it in cains heart is why he warned him
The slaying of Abel was way beyond the pale. Perhaps Cain gave gleanings rather than the best of the crop?
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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#33
The slaying of Abel was way beyond the pale. Perhaps Cain gave gleanings rather than the best of the crop?
it could be , but consider this

“Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil,

and his brother's righteous.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what they sacrificed didn’t seem to matter abel was a shepherd so he offered of his flock , Cain was a farmer so he offered of his crops

the thing with God we learn from the law about sacrifice is that if we are doing wickedness and in rebellion against Gods ways our sacrifices are an offense to him , but if we are in repentance and turn to his ways he will accept them with pleasure and approval.

in my own thinking (and it doesn’t mean that I’m right out it ) it seems like Cain was in rebellion in his heart and God told him if he wanted to be accepted all he had to do was repent and do good like Abel.

instead his way was to eliminate the only other son of man on earth , and he’s be the only one left. So he went his own way following sin rather than accepting Gods word of correction and blessing and acceptance.

I think of Israel after many years of rebellion thiers sacrifices became abhorrent to God an offense and he ended them because the people constantly rebelled against his word.

but that’s only my thought I think our heart is where he is looking and if it’s with him whatever sacrifice we offer is going to be acceptable whether we’re offering something of good and precious diamonds of our wealth or whether we offer two cents from our poverty.

sometimes the lesser offering is more based on the situation but the heart is what makes it acceptable

I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭17:10‬ ‭KJV‬

God bless sister sorry such a long post
 

Katia

Active member
Aug 29, 2021
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#34
it could be , but consider this

“Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil,

and his brother's righteous.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what they sacrificed didn’t seem to matter abel was a shepherd so he offered of his flock , Cain was a farmer so he offered of his crops

the thing with God we learn from the law about sacrifice is that if we are doing wickedness and in rebellion against Gods ways our sacrifices are an offense to him , but if we are in repentance and turn to his ways he will accept them with pleasure and approval.

in my own thinking (and it doesn’t mean that I’m right out it ) it seems like Cain was in rebellion in his heart and God told him if he wanted to be accepted all he had to do was repent and do good like Abel.

instead his way was to eliminate the only other son of man on earth , and he’s be the only one left. So he went his own way following sin rather than accepting Gods word of correction and blessing and acceptance.

I think of Israel after many years of rebellion thiers sacrifices became abhorrent to God an offense and he ended them because the people constantly rebelled against his word.

but that’s only my thought I think our heart is where he is looking and if it’s with him whatever sacrifice we offer is going to be acceptable whether we’re offering something of good and precious diamonds of our wealth or whether we offer two cents from our poverty.

sometimes the lesser offering is more based on the situation but the heart is what makes it acceptable

I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭17:10‬ ‭KJV‬

God bless sister sorry such a long post
Agreed, Thank you.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#35
Farming is hard work...
Before 800-1100 AD farming techniques never really changed. It was after this that advances in farming actually began to feed more people per acre than ever before. Even then before this time it took even more work and more land to feed the same amount of people.

Now in Chapter 3 of Genesis God tells Adam to begin to farm if he wanted to eat. Now anyone who has been on a "mission for God" will tell you...it's an all consuming passion to do exactly as God has said to do. Anyone that is deemed as "not good enough" doesn't get to take part in fulfilling the dictate of what God has said.

So we see that Cain, as the firstborn, got to do all the farming.... Adam likely helped as well as any brothers and sisters that were available...it's a LOT of work. Until it comes to Abel...

In the Ancient Near East only grade school age kids did the shepherding... adults did the other more important chores. It boggles the modern adult's mind when seeing a 6 year old herding 100 sheep or more. But trust me those kids do better than most adults.

Now Abel was an adult but not allowed to farm...he was relegated to shepherding because likely he was thought of as a screwup by his family. So long as he kept the sheep out of the farming area he was fine...but of course sheep wander away and get into the fields...so he kept the title of a screwup.

So when he slaughtered the best sheep he had which produced the best wool...he was continuing the mindset that he couldn't clothe himself with even the best that he could do.

They wore clothes because of sin...
But the best wool Abel produced wasn't good enough to cover himself with...he needed God to do it better than he ever could...

And the Atonement (covering) that Jesus provided us with is the answer to Abel's offering/plea today.
There is no evidence to support the idea that Abel was "relegated" to shepherding, nor that Cain "got to do" all the farming. Applying later norms for rural family dynamics is making an argument from silence and employing the fallacy of anachronism. The narrative tells us nothing about why Abel's offering was accepted and Cain's wasn't.
 

Thewatchman

Active member
Jun 19, 2021
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#36
In the past, I've just read this and not understanding it, passed it up. Does this mean that God likes Cattlemen, and not Farmers? I've heard others confidently offer explanations that made no more sense to me.
No it does not mean that God loves cattelman more than farmers. You haveto back up to the 6th day creation; God creates all these people to be hunters, fisherman, ranchers ... and looks at them and says that they are very good. 7th day God rested. Go to chapter 2 verse 5 the last of that verse says"there was not a man to till the ground." Verse 7 notice the difference for this creation of man and the creation of man on the 6th dayAnd the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. There is a lot that happens between verses 7 and Verse 18 where I want to pick this back up. Here God gives us all the farm animals, cattle ect, birds, chickens, ect. and beasts of the field horses, and other farm work animals; But none were found to be a help mate (wife) for him. Verses 21-23 tell us how Eve came to be.
 

Diakonos

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2019
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#37
In case you didn’t notice, what I have described are the fundamental principles that outline faith and offerings of faith. The Bible distinguishes Abel’s offering from Cain’s offering as one that was done “by faith”.

My description of Cain’s offering is that it lacked the component of faith.
To establish common ground, would you agree with that?
I obey God because of who he is and I am accepting that I will not always understand his actions. I am going to go read that story, and pray to see if it feels better.
I did read the incident and still do not understand it. I am not questioning God. I am not God.
Consider what the Bible says about this story and this principle:

-Abel's sacrifice was done by faith (Hebrews 11:4)
-Cain killed Abel "because his deeds were evil, and his brother’s were righteous" (1 Jn 3:9-13)
-“Behold, as for the proud one, His soul is not right within him; But the righteous will live by his faith.” (Habakkuk 2:4)
-“Say to the righteous that it will go well with them, For they will eat the fruit of their actions.
Woe to the wicked! It will go badly with him, For what he deserves will be done to him
.” (Isaiah 3:10–11)
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#38
I'm not sure that I will ever understand at all, parts of the Scripture.
There are basic things we all understand. We know it takes blood and grace for forgiveness of our sin. We know we can't do this ourselves, it takes the blood shed by Christ. We all understand.

Cain wanted forgiveness, as he sacrificed to the Lord from his own hand. That is clear. Abel wanted forgiveness and he gave the blood of a lamb, symbolic of Christ. That is clear. Works of our hands do not save, the blood of Christ saves. Abel and Cain clearly show this.
 

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
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#39
There is no evidence to support the idea that Abel was "relegated" to shepherding, nor that Cain "got to do" all the farming. Applying later norms for rural family dynamics is making an argument from silence and employing the fallacy of anachronism. The narrative tells us nothing about why Abel's offering was accepted and Cain's wasn't.
Cain's offering was accepted...just not heralded.
AND
Because Abel could have just offered wool instead of the sheep. (Because they were vegetarians at that time according to scriptures)
And anthropology studies of the Ancient Near East are what tell us of the family dynamics. So what I said is believably truth. Regardless of what you want to believe.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#40
Cain's offering was accepted...just not heralded.
AND
Because Abel could have just offered wool instead of the sheep. (Because they were vegetarians at that time according to scriptures)
And anthropology studies of the Ancient Near East are what tell us of the family dynamics. So what I said is believably truth. Regardless of what you want to believe.
What you said is plausible but not truth. There is an important distinction between them. Your snippy closing comment is quite unnecessary.