Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[FreeGrace2]

Third is John 10:28—"I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." I agree with this verse: no one can indeed snatch them out of His hand. However, the person himself can walk away. For this reason I prefer the phrase "forfeit salvation" to "lose salvation."

Now let's look at some scriptures that plainly talk about walking away and falling away.

Falling away and losing salvation are 2 completely different things. In Luke 8:13 Jesus used "fall away" to describe what He meant by "believe for a while". That's all. He said nothing about losing salvation.

And as to John 10:28, His teaching is very clear and straightforward. Those who receive the gift of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH.

So, the only question now is, when does one receive eternal life?

Jesus already answered that in John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes (present tense) him who sent me has (present tense) eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."

The red words are the means of receiving the gift of eternal life. The blue words is the result of believing.

Note the fact that both believing and having are in the same tense. iow, WHEN one believes they do so in the present tense. This proves that from the MOMENT one believes they possess eternal life. And 10:28 tells us that possessors (recipients) of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Jesus taught eternal security in the clearest of words.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Then none of us have any hope.

John, this is ridiculous.

Believe, and bring forth fruit in keeping with repentance, and you have all the hope you could ask for.

You don't have to be perfect, but you can't keep on sinning willingly and expect to be saved. If that's your idea of salvation then truly you have no hope I suppose.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Falling away and losing salvation are 2 completely different things. In Luke 8:13 Jesus used "fall away" to describe what He meant by "believe for a while". That's all. He said nothing about losing salvation.

And as to John 10:28, His teaching is very clear and straightforward. Those who receive the gift of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH.

So, the only question now is, when does one receive eternal life?

Jesus already answered that in John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes (present tense) him who sent me has (present tense) eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."

The red words are the means of receiving the gift of eternal life. The blue words is the result of believing.

Note the fact that both believing and having are in the same tense. iow, WHEN one believes they do so in the present tense. This proves that from the MOMENT one believes they possess eternal life. And 10:28 tells us that possessors (recipients) of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Jesus taught eternal security in the clearest of words.

Keep ignoring the clear teaching of the New Testament at your own peril. My hands are clean—I've sounded the warning.

 

[Runningman]

There are three legs upon which OSAS stands or falls. Do these verses mean what they supposedly mean, or have they been misunderstood and misapplied? When we examine them next to other scriptures that clearly contradict them will they hold up? Let's see.

First, 1 John 2:19—"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

The OSAS interpretation of this verse says that those who "went out" were never in Christ to begin with; they were never saved. However, I suggest there's another meaning that conforms very well with other scriptures. This view says that those who "went out" were indeed saved and in Christ at one point, but were simply not as committed as the others. It's in this sense that they were not "of us." These are those spoken of in the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:5-6): "Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away." It sprang up, it had life to start with; but it "withered away."

Jesus' explanation of this passage is found in Matthew 13:20-21—"As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away."

Second is 1 John 3:6—"No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him."

This seems pretty cut and dried: if someone turns away back into sin they never knew Him. But we have to understand this in light of other scriptures that contradict it. Those who "never knew Him," never had a proper understanding of Him. This corresponds to the first group in the parable of the sower: "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart." The seed was "sown in his heart," but was snatched away because of this person's lack of understanding.

Third is John 10:28—"I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." I agree with this verse: no one can indeed snatch them out of His hand. However, the person himself can walk away. For this reason I prefer the phrase "forfeit salvation" to "lose salvation."

Now let's look at some scriptures that plainly talk about walking away and falling away. I'm not going to use Hebrews because Hebrews is fiercely objected to by those who advocate OSAS, even though is has many relevant warnings about falling away. But Hebrews isn't necessary—there are plenty of others.

2 Peter 2:20-21—"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them."

This passage clearly illustrates a person who was once in Christ but who turned their back on Him. This shows a conscious action on the part of the one turning back. These verses correspond with Luke 9:26: "Jesus said to him, 'No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.' "

Matthew 24:10—"And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another."

1 Timothy 4:1—"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons."

Matthew 24:13—"But the one who endures to the end will be saved."

Why say that those who endure to the end will be saved? If one cannot forfeit their salvation, why didn't He say "But all who have prayed the sinners prayer will be saved?"

Luke 9:26—"Jesus said to him, 'No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.' "

Already mentioned, Luke 9:26 is a clear warning from the Lord about falling away.

The way I understand it is that none of what you just said voids any of the previous promises that were made.

For example, John 3:16 says "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

So whether someone sins, willingly or unwillingly, gets distracted by the difficulties in life, or really anything else, the words of John 3:16, and many other verses, aren't undone. It still stands that if someone has faith in Christ then no matter what they do they have eternal life.

What you need is a post-crucifixion verse that clearly states it's possible to lose salvation in no uncertain terms. If you can find something like that then maybe this can be a discussion. I see a lot of highly interpretive verses you posted, but nothing that directly states something like "And you lose your salvation if you do X thing."

 

[John146]

John, this is ridiculous.

Believe, and bring forth fruit in keeping with repentance, and you have all the hope you could ask for.

You don't have to be perfect, but you can't keep on sinning willingly and expect to be saved. If that's your idea of salvation then truly you have no hope I suppose.

Salvation has zero to do with my works and 100% to do with what Christ has done. If you’re trusting in your works, then that’s another gospel. I’ve sounded the warning.

 

[ResidentAlien]

The way I understand it is that none of what you just said voids any of the previous promises that were made.

For example, John 3:16 says "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

So whether someone sins, willingly or unwillingly, gets distracted by the difficulties in life, or really anything else, the words of John 3:16, and many other verses, aren't undone. It still stands that if someone has faith in Christ then no matter what they do they have eternal life.

What you need is a post-crucifixion verse that clearly states it's possible to lose salvation in no uncertain terms. If you can find something like that then maybe this can be a discussion. I see a lot of highly interpretive verses you posted, but nothing that directly states something like "And you lose your salvation if you do X thing."

There are plenty of them and you know it. Even if I showed you a 1000 scriptures your mind is made up. You'd just rationalize them away.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Salvation has zero to do with my works and 100% to do with what Christ has done. If you’re trusting in your works, then that’s another gospel. I’ve sounded the warning.

I'm not trusting in works. I've never said anything like that. I'll say it one final time and if it still isn't clear then there's nothing more I can say. God will have to reveal it to you. Works are EVIDENCE of our faith in Him. But without works, faith alone is incomplete and insufficient.

"You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was COMPLETED by his works;"—James 2:22

My hands are clean.

 

[mailmandan]

They were always dogs and sows
2Peter 2-20
For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ they are again entangled in them and overpowered the last state has become worse than the first
For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.

These words would have suited Judas Iscariot perfectly. Peter echoes Jesu's word it would have been better he had never been born.

Judas was never saved.

Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.*

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature."

Corruption (Strongs #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution. Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside. (2 Peter 2:20) But genuine believers have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. (2 Peter 1:4)

Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside. Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment.

Judas Iscariot (who was never saved) is a good example of such a person.

 

[mailmandan]

I'm not trusting in works. I've never said anything like that. I'll say it one final time and if it still isn't clear then there's nothing more I can say. God will have to reveal it to you. Works are EVIDENCE of our faith in Him. But without works, faith alone is incomplete and insufficient.

"You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was COMPLETED by his works;"—James 2:22

My hands are clean.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So James does not teach that we are saved by works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

 

[Runningman]

There are plenty of them and you know it. Even if I showed you a 1000 scriptures your mind is made up. You'd just rationalize them away.

You quoted Luke 9:62, putting a hand to the plow and looking back, as an alleged proof for a loss of salvation. However, Luke 9:62 doesn't say they lose salvation. Clearly it's a warning to not look back, but you don't know what it means to be "unfit for the kingdom of God."

Look at the context. The conversation is not about salvation, but about "working the fields" as a laborer in spreading the gospel. Luke 9:62 is about prioritizing self-interests over preaching the gospel, not losing salvation.

If you look at the beginning of the next chapter, it says so in Luke 10:

Luke 10:1-2
1After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come. 2Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.

You really need to be careful to study more before you fly off the handle and start telling people they are losing their salvation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Keep ignoring the clear teaching of the New Testament at your own peril. My hands are clean—I've sounded the warning.

Oh, please stop. I just proved that salvation is permanent.

But one has to believe what Jesus said to agree with this.

With John 5:24 and 10:28, Jesus taught that salvation is permanent. What do you think "shall never perish" means, if not eternal security?

 

[FreeGrace2]

There are plenty of them and you know it. Even if I showed you a 1000 scriptures your mind is made up. You'd just rationalize them away.

Here's the thing. NONE of those 1,000 verses teach what you claim they teach. You simply misunderstand them.

John 5:24 and 10:28 prove your claim is wrong, unbiblical.

Eternal life is received WHEN one believes in Christ per John 5:24 and the result of possessing eternal life is that the recipient shall never perish, per John 10:28.

Now, since you disagree, you need to address each of these 2 very clear verses that anyone can read and understand and show me where my error is.

 

[Evmur]

John, this is ridiculous.

Believe, and bring forth fruit in keeping with repentance, and you have all the hope you could ask for.

You don't have to be perfect, but you can't keep on sinning willingly and expect to be saved. If that's your idea of salvation then truly you have no hope I suppose.

That might seem right to you, to the natural mind it does. But the righteousness of God is different. Deliberate sin may bring chastening, even death but it can never bring damnation.

 

[Evmur]

Of course our salvation depends on our works. If you say otherwise, you're picking what scriptures you want to believe and ignoring the rest. Salvation by faith alone is a different gospel, a demonic one.

"But someone will say, 'You have faith and I have deeds.' Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. You believe that God is one. Good for you! Even the demons believe that—and shudder."—James 2:18-19

"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done."—Revelation 20:12

The disciple asked the Lord
"what must we do to do the works of God" He said "this is the work of God that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent2

We did it, we are like the Phillipian Jailor we rejoice because we have believed on Jesus Christ.

 

[John146]

I'm not trusting in works. I've never said anything like that. I'll say it one final time and if it still isn't clear then there's nothing more I can say. God will have to reveal it to you. Works are EVIDENCE of our faith in Him. But without works, faith alone is incomplete and insufficient.

"You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was COMPLETED by his works;"—James 2:22

My hands are clean.

For what is the believer going to be Judged at the judgment seat of Christ?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

A major error is to define "eternal life" primarily as "living forever". Eternal life is first all a relationship with Jesus (John 17:3). And if a person does not have a relationship with Jesus then they do not have "eternal life." We must use the Biblical concept of "eternal life" and not our own definition. Thus to say that you can't lose "eternal life" because it would not then be "eternal" makes no sense at all. Eternal life will always be a relationship with Jesus that will last forever. But if you don't know Jesus, then you don't have life, and thus you do not have "eternal life."

Jesus himself gives us what it means, When he stated. They will NEVER DIE. We can take these words. Spoken not only in John 3 but also John 6. And conclude that eternal life (which was said in the same context) means they will never die.

And Jesus also told us who will receive this gift of eternal life. Or the gift of never fearing death again. It is those who eat the brad from heaven, Who eat the flesh and blood, the food which endures forever. Or as peter called them, the words f eternal life. Which jesus came to give. Jesus himself explained it also in John 3 as he said as Moses lifted the serpent, so must the son of man be lifted up. That whoever BELIEVES in him will NEVER PERSIH but HAS ETERNAL LIFE.

No place was conditional life mentioned. Only FAITH IN CHRIST

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Of course our salvation depends on our works. If you say otherwise, you're picking what scriptures you want to believe and ignoring the rest. Salvation by faith alone is a different gospel, a demonic one.

"But someone will say, 'You have faith and I have deeds.' Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. You believe that God is one. Good for you! Even the demons believe that—and shudder."—James 2:18-19

"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done."—Revelation 20:12

If salvation is dependent on works. Christ died for nothing, Because we could have paid our own sin debt

 

[eternally-gratefull]

LOL, you said He would've used another word, so I show you another word He used and you still cling to your false doctrine. . .amazing.

He did use another word
Whoever BELIEVES is not condemned

Whoever does NOT BELIEVE is condemned already.

Belief or non beliefe is the deciding factor. Not works..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It's not by God's "whim" as you put it, but by His holy and just discretion. If our salvation doesn't depend on God's discretion, then upon who, or what, does it depend?

His son, And his will. The cross.

Not on your filthy rags.

Not of works of righteousness which we have done, But By Gods mercy (there is another word God uses. MERCY

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Keep ignoring the clear teaching of the New Testament at your own peril. My hands are clean—I've sounded the warning.

Your hands are dirty my friend. When you go proudly proclaim all your works to Jesus. Your not going to like his response.