How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church
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You keep raising up this straw man of two returns of Christ when it has already been explained that there is only one Second Coming of Christ to earth. You can call it a "return" if you wish. But Christ does NOT return to earth at the Resurrection/Rapture. He does come for His saints, whether you wish to believe that or not.
But the tribulation we have in this world since pentecost is not the same which we will find in the time of the great tribulation.
Even when Christians in all time have a heavy time of persecution.
Except, as I (a pre-tribber) discussed with you back in April, the text in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 says,
--"...rest/repose with us IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus from heaven with his mighty angels IN A FIRE OF FLAME INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON those not knowing God and..." - https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/1-8.htm ; NOT merely on "a singular 24-hr day"
--[from a post in June, where I similarly stated...] "I'm saying ALL SEVEN YEARS (SEALS, TRUMPETS, VIALS) are His "IN FLAMING FIRE [see again Lam2:3], INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON..." [2Th1:7-8] and "WRATH" (when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" Isa3:13, Rev5:6, [Lam2:3-4 parallel language to 2Th2:7b-8a],...);"
--...where the parallel language I just mentioned ^ says (in each):
- "[Lam2:3, and notice also the words "like a flaming fire"] he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy" (i.e. withdrawing His restraint, and letting the "enemy" have at it!)--this passage not referring to events merely of "a singular 24-hr day";
- "[2Th2:7b-8a] the one restraining at present, will restrain, UNTIL out of the midst he be come [/come to be], AND THEN [kai tote] shall that Wicked be revealed..." (he is revealed at the START of those "7 years," not at its MIDDLE, and certainly not at its END--COMPARE 2Th2's BEGINNING / MIDDLE / END events with Dan9:27a/b/c[26b]'s SAME BEGINNING[of 7 yrs] / MIDDLE / END, to see that Paul is NOT covering merely one small aspect of these [as most incorrectly see him referring only to the "3.5 yrs," here--namely, from the time of 2:4's event])
--it is an assumption that 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 is referring merely to the "singular 24-hr day" of Christ's "RETURN" to the earth at Rev19, rather than to INCLUDE (at the very least) the "7 Trumpets" and "7 Vials" (where "7 angels" PARTICIPATE in the initiating of those various JUDGMENTs--by their "sounding" the 7 Trumpets and "pouring" the 7 Bowls/Vials... which, altogether, take substantial TIME prior to His "return" to the earth);
--Rev1:1 [/1:19c / 4:1] language "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (speaking of the "future" aspects of the Book, i.e. from 4:1 to end of chpt 19--equaling SEVEN YEARS) is parallel to the wording in Luke 18:8 "AVENGE IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" ("in quickness" found also in Rom16:20) ALSO referring to a TIME-PERIOD (rather than merely a "singular 24-hr day," the 24-hr day of His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19);
--those being the ones of whom the "INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON those who..." occurs (per 2Th1:7-8) are the SAME persons (AND time-period) that 2Th2:10-12 states "God SHALL SEND TO THEM great delusion SO THAT THEY should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI..." where it is speaking of the SAME TIME PERIOD that was referred to in chpt 1 (i.e. the TRIB YEARS, FOLLOWING "our Rapture / THE Departure"--Paul, in these 2 chpts, is telling of the TWO CONTRASTING "beliefs" ppl WILL BE coming to FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (that is, DURING the SEVEN YEARS--a TIME-PERIOD--not "beliefs" they will [disparately] come to ON A SINGULAR 24-HR DAY [the day of His "RETURN" to the earth], see...)
[translating the above post]
2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 is not referring merely to the events on "a singular 24-hr day," the day of His "return" to the earth at Rev19. No.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 is not referring merely to the events on "a singular 24-hr day," the day of His "return" to the earth at Rev19. No.
Hi again, Happy Sunday
. It's good to meet British people here. I sometimes worry about us. I think you'll be alright. I don't want to put you off completely from looking at church doctrines and/or history.
It isn't that study in those areas have nothing of value to offer.
I was from an Irish Catholic family but my mother was born again and I stopped attending mass after I started to read the Bible myself. I think Anglicans are alright, they have managed to remain free of a lot of the pagan clutter we had as Catholics. My church is non-denominational but I have attended an Evangelical church in the past.
I do think Revelation is more like an OT book. It references the OT a lot. Rather than it being a book just for Jews though, I personally believe Jesus & John wanted us to read the former prophets to make sense of what was being taught and become familiar with the rest of scripture. Some of the detail is astonishing.
It's true you don't have to worry about it though.
If the Holy Spirit doesn't draw you to intensive study of eschatology you don't need to feel any pressure to do so.
I have studied it a lot because I find it irresistablly interesting.
"Our rapture" you repeat this short phrase over & over in your posts. (Which I have great difficulty reading, with all the added symbols, caps, no caps, etc!)
But never once do you offer a verse which has the word rapture in it! Let alone "our rapture!" I dare you to use a concordance or Greek lexicon and find this word "rapture" on any Bible except Jerome's 4th century Latin. This is a transliteration mistake.
"Our" is a plural, 1st person possessive pronoun. The genitive in Greek. Where do you find this in the Bible, coupled with rapture? No where, since rapture is not there.
When I see repeated posts by someone, raving about a phrase like "our rapture" with no references from the Bible, I have no choice but to realize this is a man made, non-Biblical term.
Nehemiah also said something about the rapture being our "blessed hope!" But, if there is no rapture, then this phrase has been misread. In fact, the Second Coming is our "blessed hope!
"while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ," Titus 2:13
What is the hope? An event or a person? The false rapture doctrine has ensnared people to look for an event, rather than Jesus Christ. And NO doctrine that takes our eyes off Jesus & onto an event can ever be true!
"Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears,[a] we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure." 1 John 3:2-3
Verse 3 makes it clear that:
"All who have this hope in him" NIV
"And everyone who has this hope focused[n] on him purifies[o] himself, just as Jesus[p] is pure)." NET
"And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure." ESV
This constant emphasis upon the rapture heretical! We do not await an event! We await Christ himself, or his promised Second Coming, which is all about Christ, not a secret special rapture, to escape tribulation, which is all about us. The rapture is a narcissistic, self centred, man-made doctrine!
"Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?” - Revelation 6:15-17
Clearly, the wrath of God is early on, right there in Revelation 6. This is not "Satan's wrath."
The Seal Judgements are followed by the Trumpet Judgements which are followed by the Bowl Judgements. This during the 7 years of tribulation. God's word is truth.
Are you obsessed with making your posts unreadable?
I was a teacher, long ago. I learned that the best way to present something was to keep it simple and clean. Look at logos, which ones stand out? Apple, Google, and all those that have a clean, white background, with simple, readable letters, or a symbol. Any movie that uses Apple computers, for example, all they need to do is pan in on the person using the computer. The Apple Logo in the back of the lap top, is obvious. Advertising without a word!
But, the way you make everything a mess? Impossible to struggle through! Here might be your version of the Google logo!!
[and] G/o [O - the 2nd O,] G L e(final letter! Shows the WORD has an ending!].
How different than:
Sorry I can't do a better job, my phone won't access different sizes, features like bold or font
The first is not readable, the second is. Strive for simplicity. You are putting a lot of effort into writing things almost no one in the forum can decipher!
.
Here is a simple graphical example of the beliefs.
It is not Christ honoring if we attack and belittle each other when we study The Word together. That is not how The Spirit works.
It is not Christ honoring if we preach error with sweetness and kindness - the serpent did that in the Garden.
Our Lord Jesus Christ said the condemned world loves one another and shows kindness to their children
What God wants is for us to love one another in Truth and in His Word.
No one can meet that challenge in the lie of pre-trib. Do you really think the Lord will accept a lie.
"Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?” - Revelation 6:15-17
Clearly, the wrath of God is early on, right there in Revelation 6. This is not "Satan's wrath."
The Seal Judgements are followed by the Trumpet Judgements which are followed by the Bowl Judgements. This during the 7 years of tribulation. God's word is truth.
Perfect chart of breaking the commandment in Revelation 22 :18 -19 when you add to our Lord's Prophecy.
Who was taken away by the flood? Unbelievers & mockers.
Who was saved through the flood? Noah & his family (8 people) and all the animals.
In this example, God sweeps away the evil, while the righteous man and his family/animals are saved to the earth. A good example of no magical taking away of believers. No rapture!
Our Lord is at the Right Hand of the Father - any COMING BACK to this realm whether on Land or the Air constitutes His Second Coming.
Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him—even those who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen. Revelation 1:8
At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. Matt 24:31
There are multiple accomplishments that the Lord will do at His Second Coming.
The FIRST is the RESURRECTION of the dead in Him - AFTER that the Rapture of alive remaining Saints.
This He does in the air - above the earth dwellers who will be judged AFTER He keeps His Promise of RESURRECTION.
This also is clear in scripture. 1 Thessalonians 4 , Matt 24:31 and Revelation 1:8
Do you want to be accountable for lying about two returns of Christ?
The error of pre-trib must be addressed, if you love the Lord, his command is we are to love each other in truth - not religion.
Why do you hate me? Because i tell you the Truth from God, found clearly in His Word - i am not against you my brother.
Search the Early Church Fathers for the Rapture.
As I remember the word Rapture comes from a Latin translation by Jerome.
"
The Latin rapiemur is Saint Jerome's translation of the Greek word ἁρπαγησόμεθα. This is a faithful translation, using a form of the Latin verb rapiō, "to catch up" or "take away". […]
"Rapture" is an English noun derived from the Latin verb rapiō, with a literal meaning of "I catch up" "or "I snatch" (from the infinitive form of the verb rapere, "to catch up"; "rapture" is also cognate to the English words "rapids", "ravish", and "rape").
Bible versions – English Bible versions have translated Jerome's rapiemur ("we shall be caught up") in various ways:
* The Wycliffe Bible (1395), translated from the Latin Vulgate (405), uses "rushed".[9]
* The Tyndale New Testament (1525), and then the Bishop's Bible (1568), Geneva Bible (1587) and King James Version (1611) have "caught up"
* The New English Bible, translated from the Greek uses "suddenly caught up" with this footnote: "Or “snatched up.” The Greek verb ἁρπάζω implies that the action is quick or forceful, so the translation supplied the adverb “suddenly” to make this implicit notion clear.""
https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3151
I'm responding both to the above, as well as to your earlier post-response (where you responded [I think] to my post about Matt24:25,26 ['you'] and v.30 ['they'], relatedly ^ )... just so I'm clear = ) :
--I am not suggesting that ONLY "unbelievers" will exist on the earth at the time of His Second Coming to the earth (NOR that ONLY ISRAEL is who will be affected / impacted by the Trib years);
--where I've said in past posts, that at the time of His Second Coming to the earth (Matt24:29-31 "Son of man coming"; and in parallel with Isa27:9,12-13's "GREAT trumpet"), there will exist on the earth BOTH "believers" AND "unbelievers"; the "believers" existing on the earth during the Trib years are those who will have come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (and ALL of Matt24:3-end of chpt 25 is speaking of what takes place FOLLOWING "our Rapture");
--when I speak of the word "tribe / tribes / kindred" as referring specifically to those of the 12 tribes of Israel, I am in no way saying that [unbelieving] Jews [/Israel] are the ONLY PPL existing on the earth or being impacted... I'm simply saying that the sentences (or parts of sentences) referring to "tribe / tribes [/kindreds] of the earth" are speaking specifically of those of the "12 tribes"; for example, the "Sheep and goats" OF THE NATIONS (speaking of the SAME TIME-SLOT) are not speaking of "Israel," but of the "nations [plural]" Matt25:31-34 and its context;
--so where Rev1:7 says:
- AND every eye shall see Him,
- AND they which pierced Him [shall see Him], [the "and" here can mean "even," grammatically, like saying "'additionally' [them]"]
- AND all the kindreds [/tribes] of the earth SHALL WAIL/MOURN because of Him
[again note, as I've pointed out in past posts, the verses where more than just "tribes / kindreds" is LISTED along with that word, like say in Rev5:9]
____________
BTW, no pre-tribber is saying "Revelation" (Book of) is ONLY for the JEWS / ISRAEL.
As the bulk of it IS describing the "future, specific, LIMITED time-period" [i.e. the "7 yrs"] leading UP TO His Second Coming to the earth [and FOLLOWS "our Rapture" (Rapture of the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY)], many people will be coming to faith IN / DURING / WITHIN that time period (none of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" will be existing on the earth during those 7 years)...
...but as I said, "our Rapture" will be a PRIMARY IMPETUS that God uses to turn Israel to faith in their Messiah (Jesus Christ), and it is THEY who will be DOING the "INVITING TO" the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age (aka "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER") and IS WHO Daniel 12:1-4,10 is calling "THE WISE" (i.e. "THE WISE [of Israel, per CONTEXT]")...
...it is THEY who "SHALL UNDERSTAND" v.10...and it is THEY who will be LEADING THE WAY in aiding OTHERS (the Gentiles who weren't saved BEFORE "our Rapture" either) in "UNDERSTANDING" just what is unfolding [at that time], and all of the "connecting" passages (btwn OT and Rev) that PUTS IT ALL TOGETHER for them (IF they will but "believe it" and "HEED"--however, we know many will NOT) during a time period [the "7 yrs"] OF GREAT DECEPTION
[...including "THE WISE" UNDERSTANDING the very precise time-stamps woven throughout Revelation JUST LIKE AN EXACT CALENDAR! THEY WILL "UNDERSTAND" coz they--now having come to faith [I'm not saying 100% of them will, mind you! But those who DO come to faith]--will have the unique ABILITY to grasp the details in ways that the Gentiles (also only now coming to faith DURING the Trib years) won't be so inclined [/equipped] to be able TO DECIPHER (in a short time), if you get what I'm trying to say... ]
There is only one Second Coming - Scripture cannot lie
Today, right now where is our Lord Jesus?
Answer from Scripture:
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 16:7
and regarding righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you no longer are going to see Me;
When our Lord Jesus Christ Returns at His Second Coming - "every eye shall see Him" - in the Clouds......
Everyone must repent from adding to and taking away from God's Word.
Less you be judged as a liar.......
I did not see any proof of your claims friend. This is a quote of the Didache that shows what they did teach.
"
CHAPTER 16
16:1 Watch concerning your life; let not your lamps be quenched or your loins be loosed, but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour at which our Lord cometh.
16:2 But be ye gathered together frequently, seeking what is suitable for your souls; for the whole time of your faith shall profit you not, unless ye be found perfect in the last time.
16:3 For in the last days false prophets and seducers shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate;
16:4 and because iniquity aboundeth they shall hate each other, and persecute each other, and deliver each other up; and then shall the Deceiver of the world appear as the Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands; and he shall do unlawful things, such as have never happened since the beginning of the world.
16:5 Then shall the creation of man come to the fiery trial of proof, and many shall be offended and shall perish; but they who remain in their faith shall be saved by the rock of offence itself.
16:6 And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first the sign of the appearance in heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet, and thirdly the resurrection of the dead
16:7 -- not of all, but as it has been said, The Lord shall come and all his saints with him;
16:8 then shall the world behold the Lord coming on the clouds of heaven.
{The End of the Didache}"
The early church went through persecution, why should anyone believe God will not allow us not to go through that too.
Rev 7
13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and whence have they come?” 14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Revelation 6:9
New International Version
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.