Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[brightfame52]

This is what I asked for:
FreeGrace2 said:
Please quote the exact verse that shows that election is to salvation, from ANY book in the Bible. I won't limit you to just Romans.

But since you claim Romans 9 is about election to salvation, prove it with clear verses, please.

Do you have any verses that clearly state that election is for salvation?

I gave you scripture, I cant make you believe scripture, that's Gods prerogative.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I gave you scripture, I cant make you believe scripture, that's Gods prerogative.

You didn't. But, let's pretend you did and I lost it.

So, could you give it to me again? Thanks.

If you are not willing to give it to me "again" then I and the rest of the thread will know that you really DON'T have such a verse.

 

[brightfame52]

You didn't. But, let's pretend you did and I lost it.

So, could you give it to me again? Thanks.

If you are not willing to give it to me "again" then I and the rest of the thread will know that you really DON'T have such a verse.

I did give you scripture !

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
You didn't. But, let's pretend you did and I lost it.

So, could you give it to me again? Thanks.

If you are not willing to give it to me "again" then I and the rest of the thread will know that you really DON'T have such a verse.

I did give you scripture !

This kind of response proves that you don't really have any Scripture that says election is to salvation. Or you would have GLADLY given it.

Jut saying "I already did" is a cop-out. It shows that your hands are empty.

So, thanks for the heads-up. Now we all know what you don't have.

I'm always amazed when posters respond like this. When I have the truth, I don't care how many times someone asks me for my evidence, I'm very happy to share it.

 

[brightfame52]

FreeGrace2 said:
You didn't. But, let's pretend you did and I lost it.

So, could you give it to me again? Thanks.

If you are not willing to give it to me "again" then I and the rest of the thread will know that you really DON'T have such a verse.

This kind of response proves that you don't really have any Scripture that says election is to salvation. Or you would have GLADLY given it.

Jut saying "I already did" is a cop-out. It shows that your hands are empty.

So, thanks for the heads-up. Now we all know what you don't have.

I'm always amazed when posters respond like this. When I have the truth, I don't care how many times someone asks me for my evidence, I'm very happy to share it.

Just read my posts. Thats what they are for !

 

[FreeGrace2]

Just read my posts. Thats what they are for !

OK, thanks. You've just admitted that you don't have any verses.

If you did, you'd be very happy to quote them as many times as requested.

I love nothing more than sharing the truth of Scripture.

But, as you have just shown, you don't have any verses that say what you claim.

Thank you very much.

 

[brightfame52]

OK, thanks. You've just admitted that you don't have any verses.

If you did, you'd be very happy to quote them as many times as requested.

I love nothing more than sharing the truth of Scripture.

But, as you have just shown, you don't have any verses that say what you claim.

Thank you very much.

I just admitted I have plenty of verses you have ignored in many of my previous posts.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I just admitted I have plenty of verses you have ignored in many of my previous posts.

Why aren't you reading my posts? I lost the verses. Why won't you just share them again?

Why are you stalling?

If you have them, you would share them again. Without any arm twisting.

But, you are acting like so many others who make claims but don't share verses that they say support their claims. All they do is repeat that they have shared verses.

For example, one poster made a claim and I asked for a verse that says what he claimed. He kept saying he had and shared them. Then he claimed he had shared them many times already. However, all he had done is claim many times that he had shared them. But he never shared any.

So, you are doing what that other poster kept doing. Making claims but showing NO verses that support what you claim.

Again, thanks for the transparency.

That's the difference between us. I am always happy to share truth. You seem happy to avoid sharing your truth yet claiming that you have been sharing truth.

 

[brightfame52]

Why aren't you reading my posts? I lost the verses. Why won't you just share them again?

Why are you stalling?

If you have them, you would share them again. Without any arm twisting.

But, you are acting like so many others who make claims but don't share verses that they say support their claims. All they do is repeat that they have shared verses.

For example, one poster made a claim and I asked for a verse that says what he claimed. He kept saying he had and shared them. Then he claimed he had shared them many times already. However, all he had done is claim many times that he had shared them. But he never shared any.

So, you are doing what that other poster kept doing. Making claims but showing NO verses that support what you claim.

Again, thanks for the transparency.

That's the difference between us. I am always happy to share truth. You seem happy to avoid sharing your truth yet claiming that you have been sharing truth.

Ive read your posts, claiming I haven't showed scripture for my view ! I have showed scripture. The bible is crystal clear that some men are unconditionally elected or chosen to Salvation before the foundation, not based upon a persons works.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Ive read your posts, claiming I haven't showed scripture for my view ! I have showed scripture. The bible is crystal clear that some men are unconditionally elected or chosen to Salvation before the foundation, not based upon a persons works.

Prove it! Quote the verse that actually says that. That's what I'm trying to get you to do.

Why do you refuse to quote the verse but keep saying you've "showed scripture"?

Every time you do this you prove that you don't have any such verse.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Faith is not of work yet it works.

Their faith had nothing to do with it, it was all of grace.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith

 

[brightfame52]

Prove it! Quote the verse that actually says that. That's what I'm trying to get you to do.

Why do you refuse to quote the verse but keep saying you've "showed scripture"?

Every time you do this you prove that you don't have any such verse.

Like I said, I have proved it.

 

[brightfame52]

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith

And ?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Like I said, I have proved it.

So easy to prove. Just repeat the verse. Or at least cite it so I can see it.

But, NO. You won't do that. Instead, all you've proven is that you DON'T have any verse. Again and again.

Those who have, DO.

Those who don't have, CAN'T.

You know the category you are in. You can't.

 

[justpassinthrough]

I must reiterate that election unconditionally in Christ before the foundation has absolutely nothing to do with ethnicity.

Then why do you keep referring to the elect, as being saved according to “unconditional election”?


Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10

• the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus

Paul’s desire was for the elect to also obtain salvation.


“Also“ being the word that clearly teaches that the elect are “also” in need of salvation.


We can conclude that the elect does not refer to being elected unconditionally for salivation.


We can conclude that there is another group besides “the elect” that is saved and Paul desires to see “the elect” obtain this same salvation which is in Christ Jesus.


We can further conclude that the doctrine of Unconditional Election is not from God.







JPT

 

[brightfame52]

Then why do you keep referring to the elect, as being saved according to “unconditional election”?


Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10

• the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus

Paul’s desire was for the elect to also obtain salvation.


“Also“ being the word that clearly teaches that the elect are “also” in need of salvation.


We can conclude that the elect does not refer to being elected unconditionally for salivation.


We can conclude that there is another group besides “the elect” that is saved and Paul desires to see “the elect” obtain this same salvation which is in Christ Jesus.


We can further conclude that the doctrine of Unconditional Election is not from God.







JPT

I think you bought up a valid point with the word also, however it poses no problem. Paul meant by that, that they also in addition to himself and other elect vessels of mercy, may obtain the Salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. It actually solidifies the truth that the Salvation in Christ is solely for Gods elect ! So theres no other group, but the bringing in of other Sheep into the fold. Like when Jesus said Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

 

[brightfame52]

The bible explicitly affirms that God has blessed His Chosen people according to the truth He chose them to be holy and blameless before the foundation of the world, because in themselves they were not holy nor blameless. He also predestinated them, not according to their will, but according to the good pleasure of His Will, that it would be to the PRAISE of the GLORY of HIS GRACE minus their works, unconditionally. Eph 1:3-636

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

 

[justpassinthrough]

I think you bought up a valid point with the word also, however it poses no problem. Paul meant by that, that they also in addition to himself and other elect vessels

Paul referred to the elect as needing to obtain salvation.


Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10



The elect therefore in this passage is a reference to Jews.





JPT

 

[cv5]

Its crystal clear that the scriptures teach election, even unconditional election in salvation. Most people will agree that election is taught in scripture, but very few agree that its unconditional, and totally by grace and Gods sovereign good pleasure, not outside of Himself. Even the OT scripture indicates Gods sovereign prerogative in election and having mercy on whomever He will Ex 33:19

And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. In this discriminatory fashion God exhibits His Glory

Now Paul alludes to this scripture in his treatise on unconditional election in Rom 9:11-16

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

We learn that there is what Paul terms "the purpose of God according to election" This is a salvaic purpose,. its answering the seeming dilema as to why so many jews in national israel are being lost Rom 9:1-6

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,​

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2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.​

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3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:​

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4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;​

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5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.​

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6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:​

Click to expand...​

Its from this background that Paul develops his treatise on the doctirne of unconditional election, or "the purpose of God according to election"

Now let us look at what Rom 9 tells us: By writer of godsonlygospel.com "election is just not fair.

Speaking of Jacob and Esau, the sons of Isaac and Rebecca, Paul the apostle states: "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, THAT THE PURPOSE OF GOD ACCORDING TO ELECTION MIGHT STAND, not of works but of Him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (Rom. 9:11-13). What a passage to confound the free willer! No wonder the Arminian minister prefers to conveniently shy away from this chapter in Romans and hide these things from his listeners. These verses show clearly that God made choice between Jacob and Esau before they were even born! God made choice between them as to which He would love and which He would hate. This was done, the Scriptures say, so that the purpose of God according to election might stand, an election which obviously could not have been based on any deeds, actual or foreseen, good or bad, that man had done or would do. The saved are those who are elected by grace through faith, not by anything they have done, that none should boast. The good works they do were appointed, or prepared, for them to do and they were not elected because of any good works they were foreseen would do:​

I do differ with the author regarding his statement "The saved are those who are elected by grace through faith, "

I believe the saved are those who are elected by Grace, minus the faith, but Faith being the consequent of election by grace.

However the main point is, the elect are not elected based upon any foreseen actions or deeds , good or bad, that man has done or will do, because the election of grace was made before they were born to do any actions whatsoever, thats the Apostles point.

This treatise by Paul should forever eliminate the false idea that election is based upon anything foreseen in or of the sinner. Its totally unconditional ! Its totally of Sovereign prerogative !

The doctrine of election has at least two corollaries in earthly society:
-being adopted into a family not your own by a different father
-Being selected out of a group of slaves being auctioned at the slave market by a new master

I believe this is a foundational precept of the Scripture: God is fully sovereign. In fact this is the core issue with the fall of Adam and his sin. Adam rejected God's sovereignty (as Lawgiver and Lord) over him by rebellion against his authority. As did the fallen angels.

God graciously offers us a second chance by the second Adam the Lord Jesus Christ. We are saved (and justified!) by His act of faithful obedience to the Father. We as beneficiaries are reconstituted to renewed fellowship into God's family as servants and Sons to the Father by our one act of obedience: Obeying the command of the Father to receive the gospel of the free gift of salvation (by faith through grace) by believing on the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Let me hasten to add that I also believe that Scripture teaches that every man has a choice either to believe or reject the gospel. To us, who are presently trammeled in this limited plane of existence, this appears to be a paradox. But this so-called paradox is doubtless fully reconciled in the mind of the just and Holy God. As for us we only have to rest on His wisdom grace and justice.

 

[phil36]

We as beneficiaries are reconstituted to renewed fellowship into God's family as servants and Sons to the Father by our one act of obedience: Obeying the command of the Father to receive the gospel of the free gift of salvation (by faith through grace) by believing on the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

As Paul says..

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.


Just be careful you are not boasting in your obedience!