Documentary—7 Pretrib Problems and the Prewrath Rapture
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3107 [e]
6 makarios
6 μακάριος
6 Blessed
6 Adj-NMS
2532 [e]
kai
καὶ
and
Conj
40 [e]
hagios
ἅγιος
holy [is]
Adj-NMS
3588 [e]
ho
ὁ
the [one]
Art-NMS
2192 [e]
echōn
ἔχων
having
V-PPA-NMS
3313 [e]
meros
μέρος
a part
N-ANS
1722 [e]
en
ἐν
in
Prep
3588 [e]
tē
τῇ
the
Art-DFS
386 [e]
anastasei
ἀναστάσει
resurrection
N-DFS
3588 [e]
tē
τῇ
-
Art-DFS
4413 [e] [<--4413... distinct from 4412]
prōtē
πρώτῃ !
first
Adj-DFS [<--ADJECTIVE]
1909 [e]
epi
ἐπὶ
Over
Prep
3778 [e]
toutōn
τούτων
these
DPro-GMP
3588 [e]
ho
ὁ
the
Art-NMS
1208 [e]
deuteros
δεύτερος
second
Adj-NMS
2288 [e]
thanatos
θάνατος
death
N-NMS
3756 [e]
ouk
οὐκ
not
Adv
2192 [e]
echei
ἔχει
has
V-PIA-3S
1849 [e]
exousian
ἐξουσίαν ,
power
N-AFS
[...]
"having A PART IN the resurrection THE FIRST" - Rev20:6 (i.e. "the resurrection OF LIFE" - John 5:29)
Notice this verse is not saying "this is the first time people will be resurrected". No.
Notice also, 1 Corinthians 15:23 "[re: resurrection] but EACH [<--a word meaning 'of more than two'] IN HIS OWN ORDER / RANK"
(MEANING, there doesn't remain ONLY ONE at one point in time; but that there is an ORDER TO IT, i.e. "RANK"--and Rev20:6 agrees with this by its saying "HAVING A PART IN the resurrection the first" [again, NOT saying, "this is the first time ppl will be resurrected"--rather, all those having A PART IN "the resurrection OF LIFE" [the ADJECTIVE "FIRST" means FIRST IN QUALITY--"OF LIFE," see])
____________
"As an adjective, first describes something as being the original, [...]. In regards to importance or rank, first means no other rank is higher or has more authority. A ship captain’s first mate, for example, has the most authority out of all the crew. The opposite of first is last." - dictionary [dot] com
["the resurrection the FIRST [ADJECTIVE]" is "resurrection OF LIFE"]
"first, adjective
English Language Learners Definition of first (Entry 1 of 3)
: coming before all others in time, order, or importance"
--Merriam-Webster
[again, 1Cor15:23 - "[re: resurrection] but EACH in his OWN ORDER / RANK"<--that is not saying it takes place ONLY at a singular POINT-IN-TIME]
6 makarios
6 μακάριος
6 Blessed
6 Adj-NMS
2532 [e]
kai
καὶ
and
Conj
40 [e]
hagios
ἅγιος
holy [is]
Adj-NMS
3588 [e]
ho
ὁ
the [one]
Art-NMS
2192 [e]
echōn
ἔχων
having
V-PPA-NMS
3313 [e]
meros
μέρος
a part
N-ANS
1722 [e]
en
ἐν
in
Prep
3588 [e]
tē
τῇ
the
Art-DFS
386 [e]
anastasei
ἀναστάσει
resurrection
N-DFS
3588 [e]
tē
τῇ
-
Art-DFS
4413 [e] [<--4413... distinct from 4412]
prōtē
πρώτῃ !
first
Adj-DFS [<--ADJECTIVE]
1909 [e]
epi
ἐπὶ
Over
Prep
3778 [e]
toutōn
τούτων
these
DPro-GMP
3588 [e]
ho
ὁ
the
Art-NMS
1208 [e]
deuteros
δεύτερος
second
Adj-NMS
2288 [e]
thanatos
θάνατος
death
N-NMS
3756 [e]
ouk
οὐκ
not
Adv
2192 [e]
echei
ἔχει
has
V-PIA-3S
1849 [e]
exousian
ἐξουσίαν ,
power
N-AFS
[...]
"having A PART IN the resurrection THE FIRST" - Rev20:6 (i.e. "the resurrection OF LIFE" - John 5:29)
Notice this verse is not saying "this is the first time people will be resurrected". No.
Notice also, 1 Corinthians 15:23 "[re: resurrection] but EACH [<--a word meaning 'of more than two'] IN HIS OWN ORDER / RANK"
(MEANING, there doesn't remain ONLY ONE at one point in time; but that there is an ORDER TO IT, i.e. "RANK"--and Rev20:6 agrees with this by its saying "HAVING A PART IN the resurrection the first" [again, NOT saying, "this is the first time ppl will be resurrected"--rather, all those having A PART IN "the resurrection OF LIFE" [the ADJECTIVE "FIRST" means FIRST IN QUALITY--"OF LIFE," see])
____________
"As an adjective, first describes something as being the original, [...]. In regards to importance or rank, first means no other rank is higher or has more authority. A ship captain’s first mate, for example, has the most authority out of all the crew. The opposite of first is last." - dictionary [dot] com
["the resurrection the FIRST [ADJECTIVE]" is "resurrection OF LIFE"]
"first, adjective
English Language Learners Definition of first (Entry 1 of 3)
: coming before all others in time, order, or importance"
--Merriam-Webster
[again, 1Cor15:23 - "[re: resurrection] but EACH in his OWN ORDER / RANK"<--that is not saying it takes place ONLY at a singular POINT-IN-TIME]
^ 1 Corinthians 15:23 "[re: resurrection] but EACH [a word meaning, 'of more than two'] in his own ORDER / RANK"
...what does this mean, as far as you understand it?
[and... why would you say that the "2 Witnesses" are resurrected at the "6th Trumpet / 2nd Woe," at a time-slot DISTINCT from when ALL OTHERS will be??]
...what does this mean, as far as you understand it?
[and... why would you say that the "2 Witnesses" are resurrected at the "6th Trumpet / 2nd Woe," at a time-slot DISTINCT from when ALL OTHERS will be??]
LOL so t
FYI I think you failed the read the introduction of REv found in Daniel. And IF you think those churches were not prophetic too, can you please explain the context of REV chapter one verse Seven:
REV1:7
7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
I guess this happened already too huh?
in addition what was the issue with those seven churches that Jesus HIMself had to address and are you saying there is no Prophectic application for us today? what was the Issue with those Seven churches?
This Writing has no forth-telling and no foretelling? Did nothing say in the first four chapters apply to us today huh?
FYI I think you failed the read the introduction of REv found in Daniel. And IF you think those churches were not prophetic too, can you please explain the context of REV chapter one verse Seven:
REV1:7
7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
I guess this happened already too huh?
in addition what was the issue with those seven churches that Jesus HIMself had to address and are you saying there is no Prophectic application for us today? what was the Issue with those Seven churches?
- The Loveless Church
- The Persecuted Church
- The Compromising Church
- The Corrupt Church
- The Dead Church
- The Faithful Church
- The Lukewarm Church
This Writing has no forth-telling and no foretelling? Did nothing say in the first four chapters apply to us today huh?
"... To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace." - 1 Thess
...so nothing in the Thessalonians epistle is intended to be applicable to believers today??
John 16 -
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
[1Cor2:9-10a,16b is saying that He indeed gave the apostles those further things to record in Scripture, what we find in the NT epistles FOLLOWING His death, resurrection, exaltation]
Some 7x in Rev2-3 it says, "...what the Spirit saith unto the churchES"... note that "the churchES" is made up of both "saints" AND those who come in His name but who are not actually saved / vitally connected with Christ
--https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=what+the+spirit+saith+unto+the+churches&version=KJV
...so nothing in the Thessalonians epistle is intended to be applicable to believers today??
John 16 -
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
[1Cor2:9-10a,16b is saying that He indeed gave the apostles those further things to record in Scripture, what we find in the NT epistles FOLLOWING His death, resurrection, exaltation]
Some 7x in Rev2-3 it says, "...what the Spirit saith unto the churchES"... note that "the churchES" is made up of both "saints" AND those who come in His name but who are not actually saved / vitally connected with Christ
--https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=what+the+spirit+saith+unto+the+churches&version=KJV
1thess is not REV chapters 1-3 but there are many things in 1thessilonians written that church which is most certainly applicable today. Why do I know that? Because God is the Author and His intent was for us to Have HIS word today and live it.
I guess 1thess chapter 4:13-18 happen too?
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen [a]asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
The church in Thessalonica saw verses 16-17 happen huh?
D
Rev.1:7 tells everyone about the second coming of our Lord. Nothing secret about it!
Like many Scripture not directly directed to us, there are many lessons that can be learned from these verses.
What I see in those seven churches, has been present form that time until today, even more so today.
I am just saying that your statement that "the church" not being mentioned after Rev.4:1 is a poor way to support your belief.
Like many Scripture not directly directed to us, there are many lessons that can be learned from these verses.
What I see in those seven churches, has been present form that time until today, even more so today.
I am just saying that your statement that "the church" not being mentioned after Rev.4:1 is a poor way to support your belief.
Indeed, Judaism and true Christianity should be seeing everything the same way but for now, they have the blindness of Moses before their eyes. Israel will be restored and they will weep when they realize they crucified the Lord of Glory. But He shall wipe away the tears and put His Spirit in them, then, they shall know Christ as the Universal Church knows Christ.
However, I cannot agree with your statement about - anyone can become a member of the body of Christ. This is not taught in Scripture. Scripture teaches that certain Elected ones will make up the body of Christ - which is the Universal Church. The nation of Israel, is never seen as members of Christ's body.
While Christ did enter into a new covenant with the Church He is building; the Church is said to be grafted into the Old Covenant made with Israel. It is Israel's by promise and ours by ingrafting.
Finally, I do not see in Scripture, an open invitation to all men. Nor do I see in Scripture, a completed atonement for everyone. Too many Scriptures, limit the idea of an open invitation to Salvation and too many Scriptures, limit the atonement work of Jesus Christ. Since the Scriptures that limit both the scope of and atonement provided for, one must then limit verses that seem to say otherwise. Those verses, that relate to the word "all" for example, can have limits but those verses, which place a limitation on the meaning of the subject, cannot be expanded without causing violence to the sentence. Example:
Mat_26:28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins.
OR:
Mat_20:28 even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
OR:
John_10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
Verses of this nature cannot be expanded beyond there intent. It is "many" not "all" and it is "the sheep", a particular group. Therefore, to keep Harmony in the Scriptures, one must limit words which can be limited. World, does not always mean people. All, does not always mean everyone. By the same token, many, never means "all" and a particular group, never becomes everybody.
However, I cannot agree with your statement about - anyone can become a member of the body of Christ. This is not taught in Scripture. Scripture teaches that certain Elected ones will make up the body of Christ - which is the Universal Church. The nation of Israel, is never seen as members of Christ's body.
While Christ did enter into a new covenant with the Church He is building; the Church is said to be grafted into the Old Covenant made with Israel. It is Israel's by promise and ours by ingrafting.
Finally, I do not see in Scripture, an open invitation to all men. Nor do I see in Scripture, a completed atonement for everyone. Too many Scriptures, limit the idea of an open invitation to Salvation and too many Scriptures, limit the atonement work of Jesus Christ. Since the Scriptures that limit both the scope of and atonement provided for, one must then limit verses that seem to say otherwise. Those verses, that relate to the word "all" for example, can have limits but those verses, which place a limitation on the meaning of the subject, cannot be expanded without causing violence to the sentence. Example:
Mat_26:28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins.
OR:
Mat_20:28 even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
OR:
John_10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
Verses of this nature cannot be expanded beyond there intent. It is "many" not "all" and it is "the sheep", a particular group. Therefore, to keep Harmony in the Scriptures, one must limit words which can be limited. World, does not always mean people. All, does not always mean everyone. By the same token, many, never means "all" and a particular group, never becomes everybody.
Not sure if you were grasping the point of my post.
My post was supposed to be a continuation of my Post #424, in which I was addressing DWR's issues in his Post #423... however, in the time it took me to compose my follow-up post (I see there's something like "17 minutes" between them), several other posters intervened, including yours, which made it seem I was addressing YOUR post, when I wasn't. = )
My post was supposed to be a continuation of my Post #424, in which I was addressing DWR's issues in his Post #423... however, in the time it took me to compose my follow-up post (I see there's something like "17 minutes" between them), several other posters intervened, including yours, which made it seem I was addressing YOUR post, when I wasn't. = )
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[ @BryanPaul 's Post #425 ] "I'm not sure but it reminds me of when Jesus said that in the world to come, “The last shall be first and the first last.”--BP
I looked up the passages with that phrase ^ (in the bold)... "first... last... last... first":
--Matthew 19:30... see also v.28 (in the context): "...in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye [speaking of "the 12"] also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judgING the twelve tribes of Israel" (compare with Matt25:31-34 [for its TIMING], speaking of the time surrounding His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom [aka "the age [singular] to come"]);
--Matthew 20:16 (1-16)... "1 The kingdom OF THE heavenS" (aka the earthly MK age ^ )... "for his vineyard"... "2...in his vineyard"... "4...into my vineyard"... "7...you also go into my vineyard"... "8... the owner of the vineyard"; notice where Isaiah 5:7 says, "For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel...";
--Mark 10:31... where v.30 of the context speaks of, "30...in the age [singular] the one coming" (aka, the earthly MK age ^ );
--Luke 13:30...where v.29 shows the "G347 - will recline [around a table / at a meal]" idea I pointed out earlier in this thread, as speaking of "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age (aka "the kingdom OF THE heavenS," aka "the age [singular] to come," aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER," etc...); parallel Matthew 8:11; (Lk18:30 also speaking of "the age [singular] the one coming"--i.e. the earthly MK age, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19 [NOT "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]," per contexts]); The phrase "weeping and gnashing of teeth" found here in this context, aligns also with other passages having this phrase, speaking also to that same point in the chronology (His Second Coming to the earth Rev19; the earthly MK age commencing following this point in time, of the chronology);
...in view of all this, it provides a little clearer insight into what "first shall be last; and the last shall be first" is referring to
I looked up the passages with that phrase ^ (in the bold)... "first... last... last... first":
--Matthew 19:30... see also v.28 (in the context): "...in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye [speaking of "the 12"] also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judgING the twelve tribes of Israel" (compare with Matt25:31-34 [for its TIMING], speaking of the time surrounding His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom [aka "the age [singular] to come"]);
--Matthew 20:16 (1-16)... "1 The kingdom OF THE heavenS" (aka the earthly MK age ^ )... "for his vineyard"... "2...in his vineyard"... "4...into my vineyard"... "7...you also go into my vineyard"... "8... the owner of the vineyard"; notice where Isaiah 5:7 says, "For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel...";
--Mark 10:31... where v.30 of the context speaks of, "30...in the age [singular] the one coming" (aka, the earthly MK age ^ );
--Luke 13:30...where v.29 shows the "G347 - will recline [around a table / at a meal]" idea I pointed out earlier in this thread, as speaking of "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age (aka "the kingdom OF THE heavenS," aka "the age [singular] to come," aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER," etc...); parallel Matthew 8:11; (Lk18:30 also speaking of "the age [singular] the one coming"--i.e. the earthly MK age, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19 [NOT "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]," per contexts]); The phrase "weeping and gnashing of teeth" found here in this context, aligns also with other passages having this phrase, speaking also to that same point in the chronology (His Second Coming to the earth Rev19; the earthly MK age commencing following this point in time, of the chronology);
...in view of all this, it provides a little clearer insight into what "first shall be last; and the last shall be first" is referring to
That doesn't really explain what I was talking about. Many of the apostles claimed that it was the last days, yet here we are 2,000 years later without fulfillment of many events. As I said, the 2,300 days is from the prophesy of Antiochus Epiphanes when he desecrated the temple. It was a shadow of what will take place when the antichrist has the abomination set up in the holy place. You are mixing prophesies here.
If word of God states that there will be seven years, then it can't be shortened, else it would make the reference to seven years, false.
What the scripture is saying, is that if those days were allowed to go beyond that predetermined time, then no one on earth would survive. It is not saying that the seven years is cut short.
However, you are free to believe your view, as it does not affect one's salvation.
If word of God states that there will be seven years, then it can't be shortened, else it would make the reference to seven years, false.
What the scripture is saying, is that if those days were allowed to go beyond that predetermined time, then no one on earth would survive. It is not saying that the seven years is cut short.
However, you are free to believe your view, as it does not affect one's salvation.
I can sit down and color These are the verses i was referring to in particular from Matthew 19:
"23 And Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” 26 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” 27 Then Peter said in reply, “See, we have left everything and followed you. What then will we have?” 28 Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world,2 when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name’s sake, will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.
To me it means that many of those who think they are the most important (esp. if that is based on worldly wealth or power) may be surprised at the Judgement to find God doesn't share their high opinion of themselves, and that many of those who are seen as least important in worldly terms God may regard as the most important, and will make them highest in the Millennial Kingdom.
"23 And Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” 26 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” 27 Then Peter said in reply, “See, we have left everything and followed you. What then will we have?” 28 Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world,2 when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name’s sake, will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.
To me it means that many of those who think they are the most important (esp. if that is based on worldly wealth or power) may be surprised at the Judgement to find God doesn't share their high opinion of themselves, and that many of those who are seen as least important in worldly terms God may regard as the most important, and will make them highest in the Millennial Kingdom.
Our Lord Jesus Christ knows what He is doing by giving John His Revelation.
Those seven churches are fully applicable to us today - most especially His warning to the church in Laodecia.
It is beneficial to all Believers to read about these seven churches for it has significance for us just as our Lord Jesus Christ said.
Those seven churches are fully applicable to us today - most especially His warning to the church in Laodecia.
It is beneficial to all Believers to read about these seven churches for it has significance for us just as our Lord Jesus Christ said.
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Pre-fibbers hate this truth and they forever have to 'add to and take away ' from Scripture for their idol to stand.
Make no mistake, pre-trib is a false doctrine and a idol in the churches.
Order of Scripture
Woven throughout His Word
Is Clear to See if you bend the knee
Not to me or other men
But to God who Holds the Eternal Pen
Make no mistake, pre-trib is a false doctrine and a idol in the churches.
Order of Scripture
Woven throughout His Word
Is Clear to See if you bend the knee
Not to me or other men
But to God who Holds the Eternal Pen
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