Sabbath

[Gideon300]

A combination of faith (belief/trust) and works (obedience to Gods law) in tandem grants righteousness/justification (God's approval). Because we will still fall short and do not deserve this approval, we still require grace (a free gift/pardon) for eternal life.

The sermon on the mount demonstrates that keeping the law is utterly inadequate. The Pharisees did that. We need to obey the inner witness in our spirit man, the living word that the Holy Spirit imparts to us. That is not automatic. It is easy to override that witness. You can't have a relationship with a book or stone. God wants us to be His friends, as Abraham was. Very few have that kind of fellowship with God. I can assure you of this. No one gets that kind of relationship with God by outward obedience to a set of rules. We need to know God as a Person, not as a remote and unapproachable Cosmic cop looking for reasons to punish people.

God is love. He knows all about us and loves us anyway. If we love Jesus, yes, we will obey Him. But that is not just following a set of rules. It's moment by moment, day by day.

Simple example. I wanted another guitar. I looked through the second hand ads online. I saw one that was ideal. The seller lived 5 minutes away. The problem was that the cost was way more than my budget. I told a friend about it. Immediately she said that she would pay the difference. She heard from the Lord Jesus. I bought the guitar and it's been a blessing. You won't find chapter and verse to justify what she did. She was led by the Spirit of God and so demonstrated that she is a child of God. And that is the secret to the Christian life. She had no "legal" obligation to me. She could have told me to lower my sights and buy something within my budget. She knows nothing about guitars. She does know the Lord Jesus.

 

[MalikB]

The sermon on the mount demonstrates that keeping the law is utterly inadequate. The Pharisees did that. We need to obey the inner witness in our spirit man, the living word that the Holy Spirit imparts to us. That is not automatic. It is easy to override that witness. You can't have a relationship with a book or stone. God wants us to be His friends, as Abraham was. Very few have that kind of fellowship with God. I can assure you of this. No one gets that kind of relationship with God by outward obedience to a set of rules. We need to know God as a Person, not as a remote and unapproachable Cosmic cop looking for reasons to punish people.

God is love. He knows all about us and loves us anyway. If we love Jesus, yes, we will obey Him. But that is not just following a set of rules. It's moment by moment, day by day.

Simple example. I wanted another guitar. I looked through the second hand ads online. I saw one that was ideal. The seller lived 5 minutes away. The problem was that the cost was way more than my budget. I told a friend about it. Immediately she said that she would pay the difference. She heard from the Lord Jesus. I bought the guitar and it's been a blessing. You won't find chapter and verse to justify what she did. She was led by the Spirit of God and so demonstrated that she is a child of God. And that is the secret to the Christian life. She had no "legal" obligation to me. She could have told me to lower my sights and buy something within my budget. She knows nothing about guitars. She does know the Lord Jesus.

The Pharisees did not keep the law correctly.... they added their own laws to it, as well as left out the spiritual component of the law in many cases. Abraham did not just have Faith, he also followed the Father's law:


Genesis 26:4-5

4 I’ll cause you to have as many descendants as the stars of the heavens, and I’ll certainly give all these lands to your descendants. Later on, through your descendants all the nations of the earth will bless one another. 5 I’m going to do this because Abraham did what I told him to do. He kept my instructions, commands, statutes, and laws.”


The spiritual component of the law has always existed... mankind just lost sight of it and needed someone to bring it back to the forefront.

It was always here though... there is nothing new under the sun:

The NT says:

Matthew 22:37-40

37 Jesus told him, “‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and most important commandment. 39 The second is exactly like it: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets depend on these two commandments.”


The OT says:

Deuteronomy 6:5

5 You are to love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your strength.

and

Leviticus 19:18

18 “You are not to seek vengeance or hold a grudge against the descendants of your people. Instead, love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.”

 

[TMS]

Thank you for taking the time to reply and the beautiful scriptures you listed.
What you listed reminds me of this scripture:
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments,
because this applies to every person.
Ecclesiastes 12:13

Would you say this is in agreement of your thoughts and post here???
Let me know - thank you

Sorry for the delay. i don't get online every day.
Yes i have quoted Lev 12:13 many times.
Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

We are not saved by keeping the law but we are asked to keep them because it is best for us and those around us. Jesus is the example of perfectly obeying the law. If we want to be like Jesus we should aim to obey the law.

 

[TMS]

How would you define Legalism? and how does that contrast to what you believe?

I said we can not save ourself by our works or by our own righteousness, by faith alone are we saved, faith in the gift that Jesus gives.

Legalism in my words would be to stand before God and believe that you have do everything that is required to be saved.

Legalism trusts in self righteousness (doing the legal requirements by works and deeds) to be saved.
I do not believe this. I can not earn salvation, I can not do anything to be good enough, i need Jesus to be saved and it is only by faith in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus that i can gain salvation.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

My questions were exactly on topic... Im srry if you feel like a "pawn" for answering those questions, but I could say the same thing about your questions. I'm not going to play the game where you ignore my questions and I answer yours because you believe it is being a "pawn".

You said that there was no law at the time of the flood.... but Noah had some info he preached... he knew of unclean animals somehow... So where is the evidence that there was no law before the flood?

We are talking abut the law of moses my friend

Please tell me where anyone before Moses was told they are cursed if they do not bey every wrd

You got mad at me because I could not supply you with an exact quote. Now you refuse to give me a quote in scripture

That makes you a hypocrite my friend.

WHERE WAS THE LAW BEFORE MOSES? AND WHEN WAS NOAH TOLD HE WAS CURSED IF HE DID NOT OBEY EVER WORD?

Your questions are invalid Because the question is NOT about moral knowledge. We know this because Paul said the gentiles who did not have law.!!!!

The law was given to ISRAEL my friend.

It was NOT until moses. That the curse of the law was pronounced to anyone.. The law (moses law) was given to lead them to christ.

Sadly That has gone way over your head

 

[eternally-gratefull]

"Your making yourself look bad" is a childish remark.... and its "you're".

Moses being given law does not mean that law did not exist before moses.... I have defined "law" many times since I have been posting.


I have already shown in scripture the law existing before Moses:


Genesis 26:5

5 I’m going to do this because Abraham did what I told him to do. He kept my instructions, commands, statutes, and laws.”

This is clearly before Moses.

THE LAW is not the MOSAIC LAW

THE LAW YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT DID NOT TELL ANYONE THEY ARE CURSED IF THEY DID NOT OBEY EVERY WORDL

THE LAW IS WRITTEN IN STONES. AND ARE CALLED THE MINISTRY OF DEATH

Since you have a problem understanding what the conversation is about. You are the one hurting yourself.

We are talking about THE LAW.

The laws you are talking about consist of many commands, INCLUDING DO NO EAT OF THIS TREE..

You just keep proving over and ver what I have said, You have no comprehension of what THE LAW IS. And as such, you should not try to be a teacher of THE LAW.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

He who has the Son has the life. I was born again before I knew that there was such thing as a sabbath. How can anyone be unborn again? How can eternal life die? I worked on weekends before I was saved. By your definition, I am condemned to hell forever. Who has obeyed the sabbath perfectly? If you get out of bed, it's work. If you brush your teeth, shower............. need I go on? Your interpretation is unscriptural. You have made the common mistake of ignoring context and not looking at the whole counsel of God. I don't know why people love to put themselves and others under the law. Such people need to be real careful that they are not trampling the blood of Christ underfoot. If we are saved by keeping the law, well, no one does that, except Lord Jesus. Your own words will be your judge. I would not like to be in your shoes on judgement day.

He is too busy about giving God his righteousness which comes by laws. Then bowing down to Gods righteousness which is given by faith.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sorry for the delay. i don't get online every day.
Yes i have quoted Lev 12:13 many times.
Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

We are not saved by keeping the law but we are asked to keep them because it is best for us and those around us. Jesus is the example of perfectly obeying the law. If we want to be like Jesus we should aim to obey the law.

How do we keep them is the question
Do we keep them by the letter

or do we keep them as CHrist said in the spirit. By the law of Love?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I said we can not save ourself by our works or by our own righteousness, by faith alone are we saved, faith in the gift that Jesus gives.

Legalism in my words would be to stand before God and believe that you have do everything that is required to be saved.

Legalism trusts in self righteousness (doing the legal requirements by works and deeds) to be saved.
I do not believe this. I can not earn salvation, I can not do anything to be good enough, i need Jesus to be saved and it is only by faith in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus that i can gain salvation.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Legalism states we are saved by “doing ur best” By “obeying Gods commands”. By following a list of rules.. And if we do not do these things, We can LOSE salvation.

Christian growth is learning to become Christlike. In which we learn to love as Christ loves us. Take our focus of self and trying to obey commands, but serving others by which we do not break commands.

Legalism is about thou shalt not

Christianity is about thou shalt..”love”

 

[MalikB]

We are talking abut the law of moses my friend

Please tell me where anyone before Moses was told they are cursed if they do not bey every wrd

You got mad at me because I could not supply you with an exact quote. Now you refuse to give me a quote in scripture

That makes you a hypocrite my friend.

WHERE WAS THE LAW BEFORE MOSES? AND WHEN WAS NOAH TOLD HE WAS CURSED IF HE DID NOT OBEY EVER WORD?

Your questions are invalid Because the question is NOT about moral knowledge. We know this because Paul said the gentiles who did not have law.!!!!

The law was given to ISRAEL my friend.

It was NOT until moses. That the curse of the law was pronounced to anyone.. The law (moses law) was given to lead them to christ.

Sadly That has gone way over your head

THE LAW is not the MOSAIC LAW

THE LAW YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT DID NOT TELL ANYONE THEY ARE CURSED IF THEY DID NOT OBEY EVERY WORDL

THE LAW IS WRITTEN IN STONES. AND ARE CALLED THE MINISTRY OF DEATH

Since you have a problem understanding what the conversation is about. You are the one hurting yourself.

We are talking about THE LAW.

The laws you are talking about consist of many commands, INCLUDING DO NO EAT OF THIS TREE..

You just keep proving over and ver what I have said, You have no comprehension of what THE LAW IS. And as such, you should not try to be a teacher of THE LAW.

Words mean things...

Sin - Breaking God's law. This means in order to sin there has to be law to break.

Curse - Penalty. This means "curse of the law" is penalties for breaking law.... aka penalties for sinning.


These words and definitions are not limited to Mosaic law...


Genesis 3:14

14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:



Genesis 3:17

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;




Genesis 4:9-11

9 And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;



You may be talking about the "law of Moses".... I'm talkin about the "law of God." This includes, but is not limited to, law given to Moses. I already proved that God's law existed before Moses:


Genesis 26:4-5

4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.


Yes the mosaic law was given to Israel first... they are the chosen people. Do you think God saw something special in these people and just gave them this law to curse them? Of course not. We all have free will.... Just like Adam and Eve, they had a choice. The route to blessings or the route to curses.

Since you just want to focus on the law given to Moses....

Let's just say, that only that set of laws was done away with when the Messiah died.... Does this mean if we find laws in scripture that predate Moses we still are required to keep those??

 

[MalikB]

Legalism states we are saved by “doing ur best” By “obeying Gods commands”. By following a list of rules.. And if we do not do these things, We can LOSE salvation.

Christian growth is learning to become Christlike. In which we learn to love as Christ loves us. Take our focus of self and trying to obey commands, but serving others by which we do not break commands.

Legalism is about thou shalt not

Christianity is about thou shalt..”love”

Being "Christlike" means being like Christ and following him. To follow Christ is to follow his Father. To Follow his Father is to follow his instructions/law.

A big part of the law is about love. Mankind had lost sight of that component and the Messiah brought it back to the forefront.

To be Christlike is to have both components of the law... the spiritual and the physical... the love and the obedience. Not just one.

 

[Grandpa]

I think you have all of the gold medals. All of that I posted and you didn't address a single scripture....just more unsupported claims from your religion.

I didn't need to address your failure at understanding scripture. I already posted 4 scriptures that show that the Lord fulfilled the Law.

Now what about not one jot or tittle falling from the law until ALL is fulfilled? Are you still under the 613 laws of Moses? What about the book of Leviticus?

If your philosophy is that the Law won't be fulfilled until the heavens and earth pass away then what excuses do you come up with for jots and tittles being done away?

 

[MalikB]

I didn't need to address your failure at understanding scripture. I already posted 4 scriptures that show that the Lord fulfilled the Law.

Now what about not one jot or tittle falling from the law until ALL is fulfilled? Are you still under the 613 laws of Moses? What about the book of Leviticus?

If your philosophy is that the Law won't be fulfilled until the heavens and earth pass away then what excuses do you come up with for jots and tittles being done away?

Incorrect. That is not my philosophy. Maybe what I posted went over your head. My position is that you don't know what the word "fulfill" means, and I can see by this post that you are still misusing the word.

You say....

"Now what about not one jot or tittle falling from the law until ALL is fulfilled?"


Scripture says...

Matthew 5:18 for, verily I say to you, till that the heaven and the earth may pass away, one iota or one tittle may not pass away from the law, till that all may come to pass.


This question is a straw man misrepresentation of scripture... You take out "heaven and earth passing away" and make sure you leave in the KJV translation of the word "fulfil" after I made it clear that is not a good translation and is a totally different Greek word than the "fulfil" in verse 17.


If/when you are able to understand these things... and that "fulling the law" does not mean it going away or being replaced... then maybe the conversation could get somewhere.

 

[DavidTree]

I said we can not save ourself by our works or by our own righteousness, by faith alone are we saved, faith in the gift that Jesus gives.

Legalism in my words would be to stand before God and believe that you have do everything that is required to be saved.

Legalism trusts in self righteousness (doing the legal requirements by works and deeds) to be saved.
I do not believe this. I can not earn salvation, I can not do anything to be good enough, i need Jesus to be saved and it is only by faith in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus that i can gain salvation.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

You quoted Paul:
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

i quoted Solomom who said: Let us here the CONCLUSION of the matter........from the Apostle Paul

Romans 7: 1 Do you not know, brothers (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives?
Romans 7:2 For instance, a married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage.
Romans 7:3 So then, if she is joined to another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law and is not an adulteress, even if she marries another man.
Romans 7:4 Therefore, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.
Romans 7:5 For when we lived according to the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, bearing fruit for death.
Romans 7:6 But now, having died to what bound us, we have been released from the law, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Conclusion: Do not commit adultery against the Gospel of God and our Salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ through Grace.

 

[TheLearner]

That sure is a lot of mental gymnastics in order to state that Christ failed at the Cross.

Fortunately, all Christians know you are wrong.


I'm wondering, though, what about all those jots and tittles not falling from the law? The 613 laws of Moses and the entire book of Leviticus?

Not one jot or one tittle will fall from the Law until ALL is fulfilled...


I'm expecting an Olympic level event here...

The context of the jots and tittles relates to the Torah text, not the commandments themselves.


Matthew 5:17-18

The Message



Completing God’s Law
17-18 “Don’t suppose for a minute that I have come to demolish the Scriptures—either God’s Law or the Prophets. I’m not here to demolish but to complete. I am going to put it all together, pull it all together in a vast panorama. God’s Law is more real and lasting than the stars in the sky and the ground at your feet. Long after stars burn out and earth wears out, God’s Law will be alive and working.

 

[TheLearner]

scrolled thru to here. It appears this thread is just going in circles.

 

[DavidTree]

scrolled thru to here. It appears this thread is just going in circles.

This is how religion operates, religious leaders always keep their sheeple going in circles so that no one escapes their 'guidance'.

It is by Grace that we are saved and break free from the ring of circus.
Our Lord did not leave us alone - He gave us the Holy Spirit who is our Guide into all Truth - 'thy Word is Truth' - all of it.

 

[Grandpa]

Incorrect. That is not my philosophy. Maybe what I posted went over your head. My position is that you don't know what the word "fulfill" means, and I can see by this post that you are still misusing the word.

You say....

"Now what about not one jot or tittle falling from the law until ALL is fulfilled?"


Scripture says...

Matthew 5:18 for, verily I say to you, till that the heaven and the earth may pass away, one iota or one tittle may not pass away from the law, till that all may come to pass.


This question is a straw man misrepresentation of scripture... You take out "heaven and earth passing away" and make sure you leave in the KJV translation of the word "fulfil" after I made it clear that is not a good translation and is a totally different Greek word than the "fulfil" in verse 17.


If/when you are able to understand these things... and that "fulling the law" does not mean it going away or being replaced... then maybe the conversation could get somewhere.

Well that was disappointing.

Since I don't agree with the way you handle scripture or your definitions that means you can just ignore half of Matthew 5:18 and its implications?

Most legalists do evade this portion of Matthew 5:18. I don't think I've found one yet that will address it.

I suppose there is no point in trying to fool someone with silly philosophy when they know in advance it is silly philosophy.


Hebrews 7:18-19
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

 

[Grandpa]

The context of the jots and tittles relates to the Torah text, not the commandments themselves.


Matthew 5:17-18

The Message



Completing God’s Law
17-18 “Don’t suppose for a minute that I have come to demolish the Scriptures—either God’s Law or the Prophets. I’m not here to demolish but to complete. I am going to put it all together, pull it all together in a vast panorama. God’s Law is more real and lasting than the stars in the sky and the ground at your feet. Long after stars burn out and earth wears out, God’s Law will be alive and working.

The Commandments aren't Gods Law.

If the Commandments were Gods Law then they could never be called the Ministration of Condemnation and Death. (2 Cor 3)


The Commandments have a purpose. To bring a person to Christ. Once a person comes to Christ the Ministration of Condemnation and Death has no more authority over them. They have gone on to a better Way. They have gone on to a New Covenant. They have moved forward into Gods Real Law and not the imagination and traditions of legalists who don't understand what Christ has done and what He continues to do.

 

[MalikB]

Well that was disappointing.

Since I don't agree with the way you handle scripture or your definitions that means you can just ignore half of Matthew 5:18 and its implications?

Most legalists do evade this portion of Matthew 5:18. I don't think I've found one yet that will address it.

I suppose there is no point in trying to fool someone with silly philosophy when they know in advance it is silly philosophy.


Hebrews 7:18-19
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

I don't know if you just aren't paying attention to what I'm posting or are intentionally disregarding it.... Pleae tell me what half of Mathew 5:18 I ignored so I can repost the part that you completely missed....