Why do Christians believe in a place of torment called Hell?

[49]

Somewhere it says if you do not forgive others God will not forgive you.

Not sure you understood my questioning his post...

 

[Tinkerbell725]

The bible never speaks of any transformation because it doesn't happen. Angels were created with bodies that look human but are of a different type of flesh.

Jesus said spirits have no flesh and bone. Spirits and angels, including fallen angels, cannot die. Annihilation doctrine now debunked.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus said spirits have no flesh and bone. Spirits and angels, including fallen angels, cannot die. Annihilation doctrine now debunked.

That's false.

Matthew 25:41 says the devil and his angels go to the lake of fire:

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Revelation 20:14-15 says the second death is being thrown into the lake of fire:

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Death itself is destroyed in the lake of fire:

1 Corinthians 15:26
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

The devil is destroyed in the lake of fire:

Hebrews 2:14
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Ask yourself if this is true. Does destroyed mean destroyed? Does death mean death? If it's literal then yes it's true. If it's not literal then that would mean it isn't going to actually happen.

Either way, the Bible doesn't give any room for a literal eternal torment. I believe we need to make sure the Bible is understood free of contradiction. Annihilationism solves a myriad of problems that those who teach eternal torment can't answer.

 

[ewq1938]

Wrong.

Jesus said spirits have no flesh and bones.

And he was speaking of ghosts not angels.

The angels can appear in human or animal form.

I've never read anything about angel;s appearing as animals. Also, they already naturally look human so there is no need to "appear" that way.

Your annihilation doctrine is now debunked. Satan cannot cease to exist because he is a spirit with no body to become ashes.

Your eternal torture doctrine has long been debunked bible teaches annihilation for all unsaved and satan.

But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Luke 24:37‭-‬39 KJV

lol, they didn't think he was just an angel. They thought he was a ghost because they doubted resurrection.

 

[1ofthem]

Link
Even though Satan is a spirit being, God is going to “destroy” the influence and power that the devil has had over mankind. Christ’s death facilitates this action. As the writer of Hebrews explains, “Through death He [Christ] might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil” (Hebrews 2:14).

Even though Satan will not die, God will render him useless in his efforts to deceive humans by restraining him along with his angels.Again, the word destroy in this passage does not mean to destroy in the sense of do away with or make nonexistent. The word translated “destroy” is from the Greek word katargeo, meaning “to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative; to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency; to deprive of force, influence, power” (The New American Standard Greek Lexicon).

Even though Satan will not die, God will render him useless in his efforts to deceive humans by restraining him along with his angels. As Jude confirms, “And the angels who did not keep their proper domain [the responsibilities God originally assigned to them], but left their own abode, He [God] has reserved in everlasting chains [some spiritual means of restriction] under darkness for the judgment of the great day” (Jude 1:6).

 

[ewq1938]

Link
Even though Satan is a spirit being, God is going to “destroy” the influence and power that the devil has had over mankind. Christ’s death facilitates this action. As the writer of Hebrews explains, “Through death He [Christ] might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil” (Hebrews 2:14).

Even though Satan will not die, God will render him useless in his efforts to deceive humans by restraining him along with his angels.Again, the word destroy in this passage does not mean to destroy in the sense of do away with or make nonexistent. The word translated “destroy” is from the Greek word katargeo, meaning “to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative; to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency; to deprive of force, influence, power” (The New American Standard Greek Lexicon).

That only provides part of the meaning of word:

G2673
καταργέω
katargeō
Thayer Definition:
1) to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
1a) to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
1b) to deprive of force, influence, power
2) to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
2a) to cease, to pass away, be done away
2b) to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one
2c) to terminate all intercourse with one
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G2596 and G691
Citing in TDNT: 1:452, 76

We know this part is what is intended because of this:

Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

 

[1ofthem]

I just thought the highlighted part of my previous post was interesting. If it is true that destroy is translated from the Greek word katargeo and that is the meaning...then it doesn't seem that destroy means to kill or annihilate.

I don't know for sure because I haven't look it up yet, but plan on it.

 

[1ofthem]

That only provides part of the meaning of word:

G2673
καταργέω
katargeō
Thayer Definition:
1) to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
1a) to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
1b) to deprive of force, influence, power
2) to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
2a) to cease, to pass away, be done away
2b) to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one
2c) to terminate all intercourse with one
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G2596 and G691
Citing in TDNT: 1:452, 76

We know this part is what is intended because of this:

Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Well, thanks...now I don't have to look it up.

But it seems that according to the definition it could be either/or.

Then you have quoted some scripture from the OT, and then we also have scripture where it says the devil will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 20:10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

 

[Ahwatukee]

That only provides part of the meaning of word:

G2673
καταργέω
katargeō
Thayer Definition:
1) to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
1a) to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
1b) to deprive of force, influence, power
2) to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
2a) to cease, to pass away, be done away
2b) to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one
2c) to terminate all intercourse with one
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G2596 and G691
Citing in TDNT: 1:452, 76

We know this part is what is intended because of this:

Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

"And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

The above is very clear in its meaning and can't be circumvented or distorted.

 

[ewq1938]

Well, thanks...now I don't have to look it up.

But it seems that according to the definition it could be either/or.

Then you have quoted some scripture from the OT, and then we also have scripture where it says the devil will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 20:10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Scripture has used the same language about fire and burning where forever and ever was not literal:

Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Isa 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
Isa 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

Isaiah uses the same language concerning Edom and Edom is not still burning and people do pass through that area yet the verse says none shall pass through that area forever and ever. This is an intentional exaggeration and should be understood in that way just as Rev 20:10 should be.

Another example:

Exo 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

Not literally forever of course. It simply means "a long time", ie: the rest of his life, an intentional exaggeration.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Sodom and Gomorrha are not still burning therefore this eternal fire does not imply the target burns eternally but that this fire exists eternally whether it has something to burn or not and since God is a consuming fire it makes sense that it is eternal because God is eternal.

 

[Runningman]

Link
Even though Satan is a spirit being, God is going to “destroy” the influence and power that the devil has had over mankind. Christ’s death facilitates this action. As the writer of Hebrews explains, “Through death He [Christ] might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil” (Hebrews 2:14).

Even though Satan will not die, God will render him useless in his efforts to deceive humans by restraining him along with his angels.Again, the word destroy in this passage does not mean to destroy in the sense of do away with or make nonexistent. The word translated “destroy” is from the Greek word katargeo, meaning “to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative; to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency; to deprive of force, influence, power” (The New American Standard Greek Lexicon).

Even though Satan will not die, God will render him useless in his efforts to deceive humans by restraining him along with his angels. As Jude confirms, “And the angels who did not keep their proper domain [the responsibilities God originally assigned to them], but left their own abode, He [God] has reserved in everlasting chains [some spiritual means of restriction] under darkness for the judgment of the great day” (Jude 1:6).

Katargeo looks like it can be used in a variety of ways, but destroy is not an invalid definition.

It might help you to cross-reference G2673 with how it's used in other places in the Bible.

Here's some examples:

Romans 6:6-7
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7For he that is dead is freed from sin.

1 Corinthians 6:13
13Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.

1 Corinthians 15:26
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

2 Thessalonians 2:8
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

And there are many, many, more examples of how this word can be used. It occurs 26 times in the New Testament.

 

[Icedaisey]

Do angels have teeth?

Gummy bears, gummy worms, .....gummy angels?

 

[1ofthem]

Katargeo looks like it can be used in a variety of ways, but destroy is not an invalid definition.

It might help you to cross-reference G2673 with how it's used in other places in the Bible.

I did a search on these verses and there are a few books written about them. It won't let me cut and paste the passages unless I download them...and I don't really want to read the complete books.

But anyhow, one book said that destroyed was used in the older versions such as the KJV when most newer versions use the word rendered powerless or lost its power. It said six of the times that Katargeo was translated in KJV and older versions as destroyed that it should have actually been translated.... as rendered powerless or to lose its power.

Romans 6:6-7
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7For he that is dead is freed from sin.

I can see how rendered powerless could also be used in this verse.

And then we also have the word "dead" being used... knowing we aren't actually physically/naturally dead. We are dead to sin and alive to God having our spirit regenerated/born again through Jesus Christ.

This seems like it is spiritual to me. Just like those who are spiritually dead aren't physically dead, yet they are separated from God through sin and their spirit is considered dead.

 

[1ofthem]

Scripture has used the same language about fire and burning where forever and ever was not literal:

Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Isa 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
Isa 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

Isaiah uses the same language concerning Edom and Edom is not still burning and people do pass through that area yet the verse says none shall pass through that area forever and ever. This is an intentional exaggeration and should be understood in that way just as Rev 20:10 should be.

Another example:

Exo 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

Not literally forever of course. It simply means "a long time", ie: the rest of his life, an intentional exaggeration.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Sodom and Gomorrha are not still burning therefore this eternal fire does not imply the target burns eternally but that this fire exists eternally whether it has something to burn or not and since God is a consuming fire it makes sense that it is eternal because God is eternal.

Thanks for the references. Exo. 21:6 does seem to be an over-exaggeration of the word forever. I guess that should mean the rest of his life...idk.

However, there are many that say that both Isaiah 34 and Ezekiel 39 refer to the judgment that will take place at Armageddon.

With Jude 1:7 I think that is referring to their fate. The people of Sodom and Gomorrha were burned to death and yes, that fire went out a long time ago, yet they are in hell right now awaiting the judgment at which time they will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

 

[ewq1938]

Thanks for the references. Exo. 21:6 does seem to be an over-exaggeration of the word forever. I guess that should mean the rest of his life...idk.

However, there are many that say that both Isaiah 34 and Ezekiel 39 refer to the judgment that will take place at Armageddon.

With Jude 1:7 I think that is referring to their fate. The people of Sodom and Gomorrha were burned to death and yes, that fire went out a long time ago, yet they are in hell right now awaiting the judgment at which time they will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

Well, to sum up the point I wanted to make. Eternal fire does not mean something will burn eternally. The fire will simply never stop existing but what you burn with it will. Forever and ever doesn't always mean literally forever and ever. It is sometimes used in scripture as a figurative period of time, not actually forever. Some things like eternal life is forever and ever but the wicked being burned is not literally forever and ever.

There is one verse that speaks of devil and says he will be tormented forever and ever. The beast and false prophet are mentioned in verse as being in same place but that doesn't equal that they share same exact fate. The bible does speak of a "greater damnation" for some so they could burn and die quickly while devil suffers longer. That same verse also does not mention anyone else so it would be incorrect to say the average unsaved person will be "tormented forever and ever" because no verse says that about regular humans who face damnation at the great white throne judgement.

Meanwhile, there are a HUGE amount of verses saying the wicked will not exist, be no more, be destroyed and consumed into smoke, and will be dead not alive. The evidence for annihilation is overwhelming. The evidence for eternal torment is two maybe 3 verses and do not carry meaning most think they do. I used to believe in thaty doctrine but I switched in face of the overwhelming evidence for annihilation.

 

[verdant]

I've just glanced thru this thread. I notice when then there is arguing or accusing (Satan is the great accuser) , then it means a person is coming from their own ideas and not from a place of seeking to glorify God (and there is a difference between accusing and defending the gospel--Paul did this firmly but respectfully). We are called to 'speak the truth in love.' One Christian writer noted that Christian fanaticism comes from the isolation of verses. The bible is one WHOLE--it cannot be broken up into pieces. Some things in prophecy such as Revelation can be difficult to understand, so we must look in context of the rest of scripture. Revelation is a book filled with symbols and the angel explains what the symbols are. for example he says the dragon IS (represents)__________. The seven heads and 10 crowns ARE__________The many waters ARE__________. The lake of fire IS the second DEATH. It plainly says it REPRESENTS death. It is nonsensical to take the lake of fire literally when we see the pattern of representation/symbolism in Revelation and then what it means explained. Also there are many problems with this. First of all the bible from Genesis to revelation says the "wages of sin is DEATH." The wicked will PERISH. Whosoever believes in Christ will not PERISH. Angels and Satan are thrown into the lake of fire and so are DEATH and HELL--none of these are physical matter, therefore cannot be burned. Also the smoke of their torment is for those who worship the beast--we can see repeated over and over again in prophecy that literal fire will rain down on the earth at the end of the age just as it did on Sodom and Gomorrah. Also, if you do not believe Jesus paid the penalty by dying on the cross, that would mean you don't believe he is currently ruling and reigning in heaven, but instead is suffering eternal torment in hell--if THAT is the punishment for sin. Jesus always spoke in parables and figurative language--eternal destruction and eternal punishment are DONE deals look up the definition of these words--they mean to be NO MORE. There is a host of problems with this belief another being the pagan idea that men are immortal when they bible repeatedly says man is MORTAL. There are so many more arguments I could make based on scripture, but I don't even know if this will be read. Please do a search on DEATH--especially Romans. It is crystal clear that the punishment for sin is DEATH. There will be no more day or night and there will be "no more sorrow and no more tears." --ANYWHERE.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I've just glanced thru this thread. I notice when then there is arguing or accusing (Satan is the great accuser) , then it means a person is coming from their own ideas and not from a place of seeking to glorify God (and there is a difference between accusing and defending the gospel--Paul did this firmly but respectfully). We are called to 'speak the truth in love.' One Christian writer noted that Christian fanaticism comes from the isolation of verses. The bible is one WHOLE--it cannot be broken up into pieces. Some things in prophecy such as Revelation can be difficult to understand, so we must look in context of the rest of scripture. Revelation is a book filled with symbols and the angel explains what the symbols are. for example he says the dragon IS (represents)__________. The seven heads and 10 crowns ARE__________The many waters ARE__________. The lake of fire IS the second DEATH. It plainly says it REPRESENTS death. It is nonsensical to take the lake of fire literally when we see the pattern of representation/symbolism in Revelation and then what it means explained.

You are correct in that, there is much symbolism in Revelation. However, we need to discern between what is to be interpreted literally and symbolically. We can't just assign symbolism to everything. The context will bear this out. That said, I can assure you that the lake of fire, everlasting fire, the second death is a real place of torment in flame and not symbolically representing something else.

Also there are many problems with this. First of all the bible from Genesis to revelation says the "wages of sin is DEATH." The wicked will PERISH. Whosoever believes in Christ will not PERISH. Angels and Satan are thrown into the lake of fire and so are DEATH and HELL--none of these are physical matter, therefore cannot be burned.

This is also a false assumption on your part. Just because angels are spirit, does not mean that they cannot be affected by the torment in the lake of fire. God knows how to punish! At the great white throne judgment, the righteous will receive indestructible resurrected bodies mete for their punishment in the flames, which is what is meant by "the smoke of their torment rising up forever and ever." But besides that, the world of God is clear in that the beast, the false prophet Satan and all of his angels and everyone's whose names is not found written in the book of life, will be tormented day and night forever ever and ever in the lake of fire. To say otherwise is to plainly ignore the many scriptures which proclaim this.

 

[verdant]

Hi Ahwatukee,

I agree--we can't say all of scriptural is symbolic. However, I have presented a logical argument in stating the fact that Revelation is indeed SYMBOLIC. John sees a vision and the angel explains the symbols/representations. I believe you were too quick to respond with what you've been taught in your denomination instead of carefully as the Bereans did 'examining the scriptures to see if what Paul (or any teacher) is saying is true. The Protestants got the idea of a place of eternal torment from the Roman Catholics and they in turn from the pagans. There are numerous literal verses stating the wages of sin is DEATH. Beginning in Genesis. "In the day you eat of it, you shall surely DIE."

 

[TheLearner]

forgot what I did

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hi Ahwatukee,

I agree--we can't say all of scriptural is symbolic. However, I have presented a logical argument in stating the fact that Revelation is indeed SYMBOLIC.

No, it is not. The very first verse of Revelation says the following:

"This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soona come to pass."

That said, the majority of the Revelation is given to God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which are all plagues of wrath which will take place literally.

John sees a vision and the angel explains the symbols/representations. I believe you were too quick to respond with what you've been taught in your denomination instead of carefully as the Bereans did 'examining the scriptures to see if what Paul (or any teacher) is saying is true. The Protestants got the idea of a place of eternal torment from the Roman Catholics and they in turn from the pagans. There are numerous literal verses stating the wages of sin is DEATH. Beginning in Genesis. "In the day you eat of it, you shall surely DIE."

I am never too quick to respond, but have been living in Revelation for over 45 years. So, it is not a quick response, but it is because I know the answer as soon as I read it. In addition, this all comes from my own studies, not someone else.

The Protestants got the idea of a place of eternal torment from the Roman Catholics and they in turn from the pagans.

Really? Did Roman Catholics write the word of God, because that is where I am getting the information from, not from Rome.

Jesus appeared as a man in order to represent us as a human beings, being of the same nature, so that by believing in Him we could be credited with His righteousness and save us from condemnation in everlasting fire, real everlasting fire. Did Roman Catholics write the following or is it the word of God:

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

Now before you say it, the word there "destroy' is translated from "apollumi" which is defined as 'complete loss of well being, ruination, to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" ; cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end."

The word comes from apoleia and olethros, which states right in the definition that it does not imply annihilation/nonexistence.

Furthermore, one would have to be existing in order for the smoke of their torment to rise up and be tormented day and night forever and ever. The words 'day and night, forever and ever, everlasting, eternal, no rest,' are all descriptive words to seal in the meaning of never ending punishment in the lake of fire. But somehow, you and others seem to still circumvent them.

The correct way to read the word of God and especially Revelation is:

"If the literal sense makes good sense, then don't seek any other sense."