Documentary—7 Pretrib Problems and the Prewrath Rapture

[rayzor]

What part is like in the days of Noah?everything seem normal.Then there the rev things where all hell breaks lose?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[HELPS Word-studies] apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

synonyms for the word "[a] leaving [NOUN]":

[quoting from WordHippo]

"[Leaving] Noun
▲
The act or state of leaving

departure exit parting withdrawal retreat exodus leave-taking going away exiting retirement going farewell departing leave adieu quitting evacuation decamping decampment outgo egression walking out egress goodbye flight valediction pull-out lighting out escape separation more ❯ "


[end quoting; underline mine]

-- What is another word for leaving? | Leaving Synonyms - WordHippo Thesaurus

 

[GaryA]

This is an excellent documentary on the rapture. It's a little long (2 hours 16 min.), but it's worth watching. It's a very professional production with graphics and illustrations throughout. It takes the pre-wrath position and does a very thorough job of comparing that with pre-trib. Enjoy!

I watched it.

I disagree with certain things the video production assumes; however, I like some of the arguments they make against pretribulationism.

"shoots it down very directly and quickly"

Every 'pre-tribber' would probably do well to watch the whole thing with sincere interest.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ I watched the OP video back in December and made posts regarding it (as I mentioned in my Post #141: https://christianchat.com/threads/documentary—7-pretrib-problems-and-the-prewrath-rapture.200942/post-4636438 )... and from what I recall, within the first 10 minutes of the video, they show the [supposed] 4 ways that the phrase "the day of the Lord" is used by the "4 viewpoints [of the Rapture timing]" (though, if I recall correctly, they seem to disregard that "the day of the Lord" ALSO INCLUDES the entire 1000-yr reign of Christ on/over the earth).

I addressed the "ARRIVAL" of the day of the Lord time-period (per the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; per 1Th5:2-3 and Matt24:4/Mk13:5, parallel with SEAL ONE at the START of the "7 yrs) in other posts of this thread (and the thread I linked in that post ^ ).

And that was just covering the first "10 mins" of the vid... (I addressed some of its other points also). = )

 

[GaryA]

And only a fool would deny that God allowing Satan and the Antichrist total control for 3 1/2 years is not a part of His wrath.

For 1260 years the HRE/RCC "ruled" the earth and "had its way" with the saints - torturing and killing multi-millions of them in the most horrible ways.

Was all of that part of the Wrath of God?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Rondonmon said: Likewise, God has a bride in Israel he married long ago, Jesus has a bride in the Church he will marry during the 70th week in Heaven. He even tells us there are many mansions in his Father's house, and that he will come back and receive us to himself [for the wedding].

Those resurrected in Rev. 20:4 are the Martyrs who die during the 70th week, not the Church who are in Heaven.

Most of your comment was just hot air and no substance, so let me sort through that for you.
1. I take it you're saying that the marriage supper of the lamb occurs pre-trib per Revelation 19. That doesn't make sense since that would exclude members of the church such as the two witnesses and the tribulation saints. No member of Jesus' church is excluded from His supper. You've got that wrong.

[I'm not sure if Rondonmon views it the same as I do...]

...but NOTICE... he made no mention of "the marriage SUPPER" in his post that you quoted (and responded to)...

Rondonmon was speaking of "the wedding" itself ("for the wedding" and "he will marry")... which [idea] is completely distinct from "the marriage SUPPER" [the "FEAST" or "G347 - MEAL"] (which in my view IS "the earthly Millennial Kingdom age" which commences upon His "RETURN FROM the wedding" Lk12:36-37,38 [i.e. His "RETURN" to the earth (Rev19)]... whereas "the MARRIAGE" itself IS and DOES NOT [is NOT the earthly MK and does NOT occur on the earth]).

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

... and from what I recall, within the first 10 minutes of the video, they show the [supposed] 4 ways that the phrase "the day of the Lord" is used by the "4 viewpoints [of the Rapture timing]" (though, if I recall correctly, they seem to disregard that "the day of the Lord" ALSO INCLUDES the entire 1000-yr reign of Christ on/over the earth).

To be more accurate, the image on the screen (of the 4 views of "the day of the Lord") is at the 14:44-min mark.



[note: this means THEIR view ("pre-wrath rapture") is that "the day of the Lord" does not commence until about "most of the way through the 7 years"--which, as I pointed out, the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" of 1Th5:2-3 at its "ARRIVAL," completely negates such a notion]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Notice in the video at the 51:51-min mark... his "pink" and "green" markings (used to supposedly "explain" the point about "apostasia" meaning "departure/RAPTURE," as we point out) COMPLETELY OVERLOOKS and BYPASSES the Subject OF VERSE 2!!

Why is this?!?!



That is exactly the point we're saying should NOT be done!

And this is done to supposedly "prove the point" that pre-tribbers would be making it to say "the rapture cannot happen until the rapture happens first," which is exactly NOT what we are saying, by our pointing that out!



[his green "v.3a" should CONNECT back to v.2c!!]

 

[Absolutely]

The Jewish people celebrate three Festivals of harvests every year, Th Barley Harvest, the Wheat Harvest, and the Grape Harvest. These are SHADOWS of the coming Harvests by God. All have First-fruits of course. Remember how Jesus told the Disciples about the parable of the What and the Tares? Israel is a part of the Wheat harvest, the Wheat grows TOGETHER with the tares until the very end. The Gentile Church and Messianic believers are the Barley Harvest which is harvested before the Wheat.

THREE MAIN HARVESTS OF THE SOUL

I will give you rains at the right season; the land will produce crops, and the trees of the field will produce their fruit. Your threshing will continue until the grape harvest, and your grape harvest will continue until it is time to plant. Then you will have plenty to eat and live safely in your land. ~ Leviticus 26:4-5, NCV

God can use a metaphor better than the most gifted writers. For example, He takes the Old Testament’s annual two grains and one fruit agricultural harvests and develops them into well-defined metaphors that describe the New Testament’s spiritual harvests of souls—those saved believers who enter into the Kingdom of God (see the rich harvest imagery in Matthew 9:36-38; John 4:35-36).

Now, in order to understand His metaphors, the three spiritual harvests of souls, believers first need to understand the significance of God’s three mandated major festivals that He situates within aforesaid agricultural harvests. The three agricultural-related mandated feasts that all Jewish men who, more than likely, are 20 years of age and older, had to attend are the Passover Feast, the Feast of Pentecost, and the Feast of Tabernacles (cf. Exodus 23:14-17; Deuteronomy 16:16). Moreover, the two different grain harvests and the one fruit harvest that are compared to three spiritual harvests of souls are the Barley Harvest, Wheat Harvest, and Grapes Harvest—these harvest metaphors depict God’s harvest times as a time of opportunity in the here and now, and a time of final judgment.

It is important to note here that every crop of grain and fruit will have first fruits (the grain and fruit of every crop that ripens early), and every crop of grain and fruit will experience a time of separation. When the crop is ripe, it is harvested by separating the chaff or the refuse. Thus, mature barley goes through a time of separation or winnowing. Using a wooden fork or “fan,” winnowers throw the gathered barley against the wind so that the wind can separate the chaff (husk) from the grain. On the other hand, mature wheat goes through a time of separation or crushing/threshing. Using a tribulum, a wooden board with holes in it, or using a wooden sled, both of which oxen often pull, threshers stand or sit on the board or sled as it is drawn over the grain that is laying on the threshing floor, causing the grain to be separated from the husk (chaff) and straw.

Because barley and wheat still will have certain amounts of chaff, little stones, and/or some tares mixed in them, these grains must go through an additional time of separation or sifting (sieving). The sifters sit on the floor and shake the sieve, which contains the grain, until the chaff begins to appear on the top. Then the sifters blow away the chaff by using the power from their breath. Shifting, thus, is necessary before the grain can be ground into meal.

Lastly, the mature grapes also go through a time of separation or crushing (treading). Using a winepress, treaders crush the grapes until the grapes’ juice is separated from the grapes’ skins, which results in the pressed juice running into the vats.

Having said that, here, in a nutshell, are the three main spiritual Harvests of Souls:

FIRST HARVEST — BARLEY HARVEST (@first FRUITS FEAST)

See ~ Ephesians 5:27; ~ 1 Thessalonians 5:23, NCV; ~ 2 Peter 3:14, NCV

The Barley Harvest represents the overcomers. These are the saints whose hearts are tender—the repentant on-fire believers, whose body, soul, and spirit are without spot or blemish; completely sanctified unleavened lives driven by the Wind of the Holy Spirit. Like Christ Jesus, they too are Firstfruits; they are the Bride of Christ; they are the redeemed, resurrected, never-to-die again, glorified sons and daughters of God, and they are the FIRST PHASE of the spiritual Harvest of Souls who participate in the 1st resurrection. Furthermore, some of them will be the resurrected dead in Christ AND some will be the raptured alive in Christ (see 1 Corinthians 15:51- 54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

More important, these overcomers have been winnowed, which means they did not need to be harvested by using a “TRIBULUM” (Latin word from which comes the English word, Tribulation). In other words, the Barley Harvest of Souls will NOT have to go through the seven-year TRIBULATION, of which the last 3½ years are going to be the time of great distress and great pressure that this world has never seen before, and will never see again.

SECOND HARVEST — WHEAT HARVEST (@FEAST OF PENTECOST)

See ~ Matthew 3:11-12; ~ Matthew 13:38-39; ~ Revelation 14:14-16, NCV

The Wheat Harvest represents all the rest of the believers—the left behind hardhearted and/or carnal believers who were not ready when the Bride of Christ was raptured. These believers must endure the seven-year Tribulation, and for them, the Great Tribulation (the last 3½ years) is a judgment that can be compared to the most severe action of Wheat threshing that is done in order to make the Wheat easier to separate (easier to winnow) away from the chaff. The Wheat Harvest, thus, represents those believers who are asleep, in the spiritual sense (see Matthew 13:25). Furthermore, the Firstfruits of this Wheat Harvest will be the martyred (beheaded) saints who are the SECOND PHASE of the spiritual Harvest of Souls who participate in the 1st resurrection, and the remaining mature Wheat will be those surviving Tribulation saints—the left-behind believers who have been thoroughly purged; see Revelation 7:13-14).

Also mixed in with this left-behind Harvest of Wheat are many left behind evangelized unbelievers (Jews and Gentiles) who, during the seven-year Tribulation, finally will accept Jesus the Christ as their personal Savior! Together with the surviving Tribulation’s left-behind believers, these Tribulation converts will be those Tribulation survivors biblically described as “…a great multitude, which no man could number…” (Revelation 7:9).

THIRD HARVEST — GRAPES HARVEST (@FEAST OF TABERNACLES)

See ~ Revelation 14:17-20; ~ Revelation 19:15

The Grapes Harvest represents the unbelievers who, for the most part, will be part of the massive crop of unbelievers who are in the 2nd resurrection—those centuries of unbelievers who will be judged according to their works (see Revelation 20:11-13). Moreover, many of these Grapes are Tribulation unbelievers who have heard the Gospel but made a choice to not make the Gospel a part of their lives—they chose not to accept Jesus the Christ as their Lord and personal Savior. These Grapes, thus, are the Tribulation’s unspiritual Harvest of Souls who have been thrown in the great winepress of God’s wrath, which thoroughly extracts juice (life) from “crushed” Grapes (see Revelation 14:19). Put differently, the Grapes and their seeds are UTTERLY and TOTALLY CRUSHED!

In contrast, the Firstfruits of the Grapes Harvest are the 144,000 last days’ redeemed unmarried translated/raptured Messianic Jews (see Revelation 14:3-4). These blameless, undefiled, and faithful followers of Jesus the Christ are the THIRD PHASE of the spiritual Harvest of Souls who participate in the 1st resurrection, because just like the alive Bride of Christ these 144,000 saints will be raptured (redeemed or resurrected; raised up) alive!

Are you breathing? Then a word to the wise should be sufficient!!!


https://gone-fishin.org//?s=Three+Harvests&search=Go

Another dynamic to that is that ruth meets boaz at the barley harvest.
Ruth represents the gentile bride and boaz represents Jesus.
Naomi comes in through redemption/family/property.
(Ruth is also redeemed, but becomes the wife of boaz and is in the lineage of king david.)

 

[Absolutely]

It happen in Moses time God wrath on agypt it didn't mean Israel not protected

It happen in Moses time God wrath on agypt it didn't mean Israel not protected

we can all see israel is ushered away. I dont see anyone making that an issue.

 

[Absolutely]

I started watching this and it starts off with some stuff about Margaret MacDonald, a 12 year old girl to whom the pre-trib theory supposedly can be be traced. I did some research and this is patently false. From what I remember this video seemed pretty good at the time but I'll have to watch it again. I used to like the preacher who preaches in it but have seen some other videos of his that leave a lot to be desired.

Lol
Mcdonald believed the church had to go through the trib for purification.

You dont check things out do you?????

Ironically postribs attempt to ascribe wackyness to their own doctrine
Too funny

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Lol
Mcdonald believed the church had to go through the trib for purification.

You dont check things out do you?????

Read his post carefully.

He said, "I did some research and this is patently false." [his second sentence]



Please give credit where credit is due.

 

[Absolutely]

I started watching this and it starts off with some stuff about Margaret MacDonald, a 12 year old girl to whom the pre-trib theory supposedly can be be traced. I did some research and this is patently false. From what I remember this video seemed pretty good at the time but I'll have to watch it again. I used to like the preacher who preaches in it but have seen some other videos of his that leave a lot to be desired.

Ok i may be wrong about you checking out the mcdonald postrib poster girl.

Not sure what you are ascribing "false" to.
Sorry if i misunderstood.

 

[Absolutely]

Read his post carefully.

He said, "I did some research and this is patently false." [his second sentence]



Please give credit where credit is due.

Ok i went back and fixed it.
Thanks dwm.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Do you mean:

--it is not EVER used in such a sense?

--it is not used IN SCRIPTURE, elsewhere, in such a sense?


If I am recalling rightly, Flavius Josephus used the word "apostasia" in the sense of "the departing of a boat from a dock" (and didn't he live between 30-100ad?--the general era of the language we're talking about here...);

Yes, I'm saying never, whether in the Bible or any other Greek literature. If you have a reference for Josephus I'd like to see it.

Look here https://biblehub.com/greek/646.htm. It doesn't say anything about a departure from one place or another. It does say a departure from a previous standing or state.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Ok i went back and fixed it.
Thanks dwm.

No prob, abs. = )



[and it kinda serves to make my other point I've been making... about how "overlooking / bypassing / jumping over and past / ignoring that MIDDLE (and VITAL) sentence" (which completely CHANGES the ENTIRE THING being conveyed, in its entirety) is a VERY COMMON THING to do!! ... Ppl do it with this 2Th2:1-(2)-3 passage ALL THE TIME!! lol]

 

[Absolutely]

Yes, I'm saying never, whether in the Bible or any other Greek literature. If you have a reference for Josephus I'd like to see it.

Look here https://biblehub.com/greek/646.htm. It doesn't say anything about a departure from one place or another. It does say a departure from a previous standing or state.

No
Apostacia literally translates "from standing".
0r...." A departure"
" from the faith" is what some will imply( correctly or incorrectly).

It is speculation and really serves neither side.
neither a departure from the faith or the ac revealed ,in any way, detracts from the pretrib rapture model.
Not even a sliver.

 

[Absolutely]

No prob, abs. = )



[and it kinda serves to make my other point I've been making... about how "overlooking / bypassing / jumping over and past / ignoring that MIDDLE (and VITAL) sentence" (which completely CHANGES the ENTIRE THING being conveyed, in its entirety) is a VERY COMMON THING to do!! ... Ppl do it with this 2Th2:1-(2)-3 passage ALL THE TIME!! lol]

Yes sir
I agree

 

[Runningman]

[I'm not sure if Rondonmon views it the same as I do...]

...but NOTICE... he made no mention of "the marriage SUPPER" in his post that you quoted (and responded to)...

Rondonmon was speaking of "the wedding" itself ("for the wedding" and "he will marry")... which [idea] is completely distinct from "the marriage SUPPER" [the "FEAST" or "G347 - MEAL"] (which in my view IS "the earthly Millennial Kingdom age" which commences upon His "RETURN FROM the wedding" Lk12:36-37,38 [i.e. His "RETURN" to the earth (Rev19)]... whereas "the MARRIAGE" itself IS and DOES NOT [is NOT the earthly MK and does NOT occur on the earth]).

My point still stands, if the marriage of the Lamb occurs upon His return to the earth pre-trib then the two witnesses and the tribulation saints will remain unmarried. There's no mention of more than one wedding supper and marriage.

The only neat fit for the supper/marriage is post-trib. This way the totality of Christ's church is included.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[ @ResidentAlien 's Post #195]... To try to answer your question, here's what I've put in other threads in the past:

[quoting from old posts]


From Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon (1889) -

apostasia [says: "LATE FORM OF "apostasis" / "LATER FORM FOR apostasis (see below)] -

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0058:entry=a)postasi/a


[so THAT entry says...]

apostasis - http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0058:entry=a)po/stasis


--"ἀπόστασις [apostasis] ἀφίσταμαι

a standing away from, and so,

1.a defection, revolt, ἀπό τινος or τινος Hdt., Thuc.; πρός τινα Thuc.

2.departure from, βίου Eur.

3.distance, interval, Plat.

Liddell and Scott. An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon. Oxford. Clarendon Press. 1889.



[note: "Strong's Concordance first published 1890."]


[end quoting from that particular old post]

____________



[the abbreviations (as in the above ^ ) of sources from this site are shown listed here: Greek and Roman Materials (tufts.edu) --so does that mean that "Eur" ^ (under 2, above) refers to "Euripides [480-406bc]"??? (speaking of the same [but "earlier"] word: "apostasis"--whereas "apostasia" is the "LATER FORM FOR apostasis," as the L&S entry states also, above)]


____________


Other posts would be here:

Page 1 of a different thread (several posts of mine there, but see especially Post #9 where I covered a quote saying this "apostasia [/apostasis]" word was used in that era to refer to "the departing [noun] of a boat from a dock" etc... ; and Post #8 where an important article on the same subject is provided) - Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums

[note: in my previous post here in this thread, I believe I was perhaps conflating how Josephus used the term, with how another used the term according to the above entry at Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon ^ (and not merely under number "2" which I bolded, above), as well as the phrasing (shown in Post #9 at link) about the boat/dock thing--Still, I think there is enough info provided in these various places/sources (including Posts #8 & #9 at link) to show how it was used in that general era]







Hope that helps you see my perspective, somewhat. = )