the standard of righteousness

[Pilgrimshope]

Did you read my post regarding the importance of 12 men as witnesses? It really is elementary.
Also, the body of Christ is in heaven and on the earth today. Commissioned by revelation and the laying on of hands IS a commission from the Lord personally. This is the body of Christ in the earth.

“For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.”

The “coming in the flesh” is the flesh of men not just the single person of Jesus: believers, corporately, carry the Spirit of the Lord in themselves as the body of Christ. To say otherwise, to limit the authenticity of the work of the Lord to His 3 year terrestrial ministry, is antichrist. It denigrates Him to a philosopher and in nullifies the reality of His body in the earth.

Paul was commissioned and released as an apostle (as was Barnabas) after fasting and prayer and the laying on of hands by the saints. Without this, his encounter with the Lord is of no consequence. If Paul had not prepared to be an apostle the Lord would have never directed them to released him.

The laying on of hands in an elementary principle.

yeah my point remains what I was saying

“And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:10-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬


I’m sure a lot of folks name themselves apostles , and others call them apostles as luke refered to Barnabus

my point is pretty clear to myself , Christ chose twelve men in the same way and promised them something he never promised anyone else first they were all Jews of the tribes of Israel including Paul

“Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭3:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

No I don’t really study peoples teachings I’m only here for discussion about scripture and to seek deeper understanding of what Gods written and witnesses word has proclaimed for all to believe

the apostles sprang from Israel’s tribes the reason he chose twelve is just that the ot promises are revealed in the new

so Gentiles today claiming they are apostles hey if you are using just the word apostle I suppose there are hundreds and thousands who claim it my point is Jesus chose twelve.

but those true 12 apostles that Jesus appeared to in glory and called to be his chosen witnesses to all the world jew and gentile they are the foundation of the witness of Jesus Christ in the nations of earth

can I ask are you lds? To y also have the belief that there are 12 parked on earth still but Thy thing is thier doctrine let’s from the truth

 

[Pilgrimshope]

My point out the old revealed in the new is isreal is actually born through through the 12 apostles just as they had been in the ot through the twelve sons of Jacob

the ot term of the ot always holds true in the revelation of the new just like Jacob had 12 sons that became the foundation of the ot , Jesus had 12 apostles who are the foundation of the new to bring Abraham’s promises to pass for not israel the nation but for all nations who Abraham was promised to father

the names of the twelve tribes and the twelve apostles are going to be written here and are already is my point

“But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

which was of course this word

“How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the apostles set the New Testament forward in the earth it’s never going to change and there is no more left to be revealed it’s now about hearing and believing the word God has spoken into all nations

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The other brother is correct--there are more than 12 or 13 apostles, called and chosen by God. The 12 apostles had a specific calling as apostles in connection with Israel, although like the rest, they were also sent out into other nations. Their jobs were to start in Israel. Paul's job did not start in Israel, although he did start with the Jews first, in other countries.

The names of the 12 apostles are written on the New Jerusalem not because they are the only apostles, but because they were apostles called to represent the testimony of Jesus to the 12 tribes, otherwise known as the Jewish People. By that time, all 12 tribes had coalesced and amalgamated into a single ethnicity, the Jewish People.

But all 12 represented the fact that inherent in the Jewish People were the descendants of all 12 tribes, thus fulfilling the promises God made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The promise made to Jacob obviously included his 12 sons, which became the 12 tribes. And all 12 tribes were given a place, under the Law, in the inheritance of faith.

But clearly, there were other apostles, whose job it was to testify to the fundamental truths of the Gospel, establishing churches everywhere, in other nations. The fact that all 12 tribes were represented in the New Jerusalem, by the12 apostles called 1st to Israel, indicates the model of God's faithfulness to the original, prototypical nation, Israel. If so, then all other nations can have hope too.

they don’t represent each other the twelve tribes were the only access to God in the ot that was mediated by angels

“And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s the Old Testament folks exclusively for the tribes it’s how these folks got there

“And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

12 times 12 the complete number of Israel

but the 12 apostles sent out to all nations with the gospel

“And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

are how these folks appear together with Israel’s chosen

“After this ( after the old covenant ) I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬


These are the New Testament believers of the gospel it’s why they are praising the lamb along with God because the gospel had come forth and was sent to all other nations also

there are twelve sons of Jacob that establish the ot promises and there are 12 apostles of Jesus Christ that established the New Testament

there are no other names chosen by Christ to be his apostles and there are no other 12 going to sit here

“And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭19:28‬ ‭KJV‬

the 12 apostles will judge the 12 tribes israel


now if the question is what does the term apostle mean , there are many , but if you are saying Jesus has more than the twelve apostles he chose in person after his resurrection I would just ask you why has Jesus set apart only the twelve names and set only twelve thrones up in eternity ?

there are twelve apostles of Jesus Christ , recognized by him 12 according to the patterns God has always shown forth through Israel

 

[randyk]

Did you read my post regarding the importance of 12 men as witnesses? It really is elementary.
Also, the body of Christ is in heaven and on the earth today. Commissioned by revelation and the laying on of hands IS a commission from the Lord personally. This is the body of Christ in the earth.

“For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.”

The “coming in the flesh” is the flesh of men not just the single person of Jesus: believers, corporately, carry the Spirit of the Lord in themselves as the body of Christ. To say otherwise, to limit the authenticity of the work of the Lord to His 3 year terrestrial ministry, is antichrist. It denigrates Him to a philosopher and in nullifies the reality of His body in the earth.

Paul was commissioned and released as an apostle (as was Barnabas) after fasting and prayer and the laying on of hands by the saints. Without this, his encounter with the Lord is of no consequence. If Paul had not prepared to be an apostle the Lord would have never directed them to released him.

The laying on of hands in an elementary principle.

This teaching is actually rather strange. I can agree that there were more than 12 apostles mentioned in the NT Scriptures, but I wouldn't go as far as you, using language that applied to Jesus to apply to the whole Church. When the Word became flesh, Jesus was born--not the Church. In a sense, Jesus' own spiritually comes to be owned by us, as well. But I wouldn't use language that confuses Christ's coming with our purpose.

Nor would I say that Laying on of Hands is "elementary doctrine" in the sense you seem to apply it. You seem to think it automatically confers on men "apostleship," which wasn't even the purpose of the early apostles. Their purpose was to establish Christian doctrine and to found churches that carry that doctrine into the future. The foundation of the apostles was already built.

In some sense you might say there are modern apostles, who reconnect with original doctrine, bring about reformations and revivals, and found churches with this doctrine, but that can get confusing. There isn't a practice of "Laying on of Hands" that establishes apostleship in this way.

Laying on of Hands was a sending forth of men called by God to stand behind them in their ministry. This is elementary doctrine. What Hebrews talks about is the need to mature in character and in faith--not learn how to add new rituals to the church, nor to add new doctrine to the church.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

This teaching is actually rather strange. I can agree that there were more than 12 apostles mentioned in the NT Scriptures, but I wouldn't go as far as you, using language that applied to Jesus to apply to the whole Church. When the Word became flesh, Jesus was born--not the Church. In a sense, Jesus' own spiritually comes to be owned by us, as well. But I wouldn't use language that confuses Christ's coming with our purpose.

Nor would I say that Laying on of Hands is "elementary doctrine" in the sense you seem to apply it. You seem to think it automatically confers on men "apostleship," which wasn't even the purpose of the early apostles. Their purpose was to establish Christian doctrine and to found churches that carry that doctrine into the future. The foundation of the apostles was already built.

In some sense you might say there are modern apostles, who reconnect with original doctrine, bring about reformations and revivals, and found churches with this doctrine, but that can get confusing. There isn't a practice of "Laying on of Hands" that establishes apostleship in this way.

Laying on of Hands was a sending forth of men called by God to stand behind them in their ministry. This is elementary doctrine. What Hebrews talks about is the need to mature in character and in faith--not learn how to add new rituals to the church, nor to add new doctrine to the church.

do a quick study of lds doctrine and compare it they believe many plain and precious parts “ of the Bible were taken away doctrines like “ laying on of hands “ that there will always be twelve apostles living in earth , they believe things like this reference

“Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:29‬ ‭

they think there is a full doctrine about being baptized for those who died beforehand that you can get baptized for the remission of a dead persons sins. Their belief is God took away the truth from the world and then later restored it through an angel pleading to the ancient Americans and then Joseph smith , was called in the 1800s to restore all the “ missing plain doctrine that was taken away “ before the end comes

it sounds like lds thinking to me .

 

[randyk]

they don’t represent each other the twelve tribes were the only access to God in the ot that was mediated by angels

I don't know what you personally mean by quoting "mediated by angels?" However, you might want to take a look at my most recent post on this, because I realized that there is more to this conversation than I realized?

By "mediated by angels" I understand that angels are given to be the arbiters of who is in compliance with a covenant or not, just as angels kept fallen mankind out of the garden of Eden, and away from the Tree of Life. The point was, God made a covenant with Israel, by Law, which was not mediated by men, but from heaven, by angels.

“And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s the Old Testament folks exclusively for the tribes it’s how these folks got there

“And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

12 times 12 the complete number of Israel

but the 12 apostles sent out to all nations with the gospel

“And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

are how these folks appear together with Israel’s chosen

“After this ( after the old covenant ) I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬


These are the New Testament believers of the gospel it’s why they are praising the lamb along with God because the gospel had come forth and was sent to all other nations also

there are twelve sons of Jacob that establish the ot promises and there are 12 apostles of Jesus Christ that established the New Testament

there are no other names chosen by Christ to be his apostles and there are no other 12 going to sit here

“And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭19:28‬ ‭KJV‬

the 12 apostles will judge the 12 tribes israel


now if the question is what does the term apostle mean , there are many , but if you are saying Jesus has more than the twelve apostles he chose in person after his resurrection I would just ask you why has Jesus set apart only the twelve names and set only twelve thrones up in eternity ?

there are twelve apostles of Jesus Christ , recognized by him 12 according to the patterns God has always shown forth through Israel

Much of what you say I would agree with, and I've already said so. There is a danger when Christians begin to proclaim new apostles, eg Mormonism. Some Charismatics today like to identify certain leaders as "apostles," as well, because they are searching for new truth, as if new truth brings spiritual revival. It doesn't. Old truth put into practice brings spiritual revival.

12 apostles were chosen because the program of international salvation began with one nation, Israel. And Israel began with 12 tribes. This shows the multifaceted character of a nation--it is not monolithic, but diverse.

And so, God chosen 12 apostles, to represent the 12 tribes of Israel, since Israel began the ministry of salvation of many nations, beginning with Israel. So there were 12 specific apostles that Jesus himself taught. But as you know, Jesus had to go to heaven, and had to trust his Church to carry on.

As such, other apostles were called by the Holy Spirit to be in this ministry, as well. And this was the ministry of carrying Jesus' teaching to the nations. It had to begin with people specially selected to bring true doctrine to the international Church. Clearly, other apostles were named, besides the 12. But like you, I'm leery when people today want to identify modern apostles. Very, very suspicious!

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I don't know what you personally mean by quoting "mediated by angels?" However, you might want to take a look at my most recent post on this, because I realized that there is more to this conversation than I realized?

By "mediated by angels" I understand that angels are given to be the arbiters of who is in compliance with a covenant or not, just as angels kept fallen mankind out of the garden of Eden, and away from the Tree of Life. The point was, God made a covenant with Israel, by Law, which was not mediated by men, but from heaven, by angels.



Much of what you say I would agree with, and I've already said so. There is a danger when Christians begin to proclaim new apostles, eg Mormonism. Some Charismatics today like to identify certain leaders as "apostles," as well, because they are searching for new truth, as if new truth brings spiritual revival. It doesn't. Old truth put into practice brings spiritual revival.

12 apostles were chosen because the program of international salvation began with one nation, Israel. And Israel began with 12 tribes. This shows the multifaceted character of a nation--it is not monolithic, but diverse.

And so, God chosen 12 apostles, to represent the 12 tribes of Israel, since Israel began the ministry of salvation of many nations, beginning with Israel. So there were 12 specific apostles that Jesus himself taught. But as you know, Jesus had to go to heaven, and had to trust his Church to carry on.

As such, other apostles were called by the Holy Spirit to be in this ministry, as well. And this was the ministry of carrying Jesus' teaching to the nations. It had to begin with people specially selected to bring true doctrine to the international Church. Clearly, other apostles were named, besides the 12. But like you, I'm leery when people today want to identify modern apostles. Very, very suspicious!

yes there are no other apostles but consider the Bible made clear to us many false doctrines would permitted the church now I ask if I can convince someone I’m an apostle, isn’t that the perfect position to have authority over then and exalt my own self parting from the apostles doctrine ? I myself only have what I believe and my foundation is that it won’t change from what Jesus said just as creation will never part his word of life and death

yes the mediation of angels is a pretty deep Thing until you see it in scripture if you wish to know what i was getting at consider

“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when you see the twelve gates there bearing the names of Israel’s tribes , notice there’s is an angel at the door ? It’s because of this truth that Stephen was killed for revealing

“And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands. Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭7:41-42‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭7:53-54‬ ‭

what he is saying is because of what they did in the desert at the foot of Sinai God left then tonthe angels to mediate Gods word , through this disposition rather than Christ

“Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭23:20-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God handed them over because they shattered his covenant when they broke the first commandment and worshipped the idol calf of Egypt and gave his thier deliverer and true God a , glory to the works of thier hands

at that point everything changes being broken and Moses law is then added by the angels disposition and isn’t Gods word through Christ that was to come with the messiah who is greater than angels

the ot being mediated was God spoke from heaven , the angels spoke to Moses , Moses spoke to the people but it was coming through the disposition of the angels this disposition

“Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him”

so we understand why this type is law and judgement is present in the law of Moses

“And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.

And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.”
‭‭Numbers‬ ‭15:32-33, 35-36‬ ‭

remember the angel without forgiveness was given the lords “name “ and authority over them but we know that Christs disposition is this offering forgiveness through repentance but the angel demanded both killing by the people of God , witnessing against one another , and by their hands killing one another for sin they all were guilty in death for the sinner by the hands of the other sinners isnt jesusnjudgement we understand this perfectly

“Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭55:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

looking at the ot we have to realize there is a dark veil hiding God from the earth and in Christ there is no veil ot is Bod presenting himself in plain sight revealing his own true judgements for eternity

the reason I used that from revelation is not shows israel entered in by the mediation of angels they are at the feted of Israel standing at the gates where the tribes entered in

but the glory of the gospel is that we aren’t having to come to God through angels mediation because of Israel’s transgression at Sinai we have something far greater

“Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭6:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul’s mystery was that jew first and then gentile would become fellow heirs and members of the same kingdom of God , the same body of Christ and revelation is also showing us this ne word we that was coming forth in johns epic vision of pure spiritual understanding in revelation

 

[randyk]

yes there are no other apostles but consider the Bible made clear to us many false doctrines would permitted the church now I ask if I can convince someone I’m an apostle, isn’t that the perfect position to have authority over then and exalt my own self parting from the apostles doctrine ? I myself only have what I believe and my foundation is that it won’t change from what Jesus said just as creation will never part his word of life and death

yes the mediation of angels is a pretty deep Thing until you see it in scripture if you wish to know what i was getting at consider

There were other "apostles" mentioned, besides the 12 apostles, in the NT Scriptures. But clearly, the foundational doctrine was based on the testimony of the 12 apostles of Israel. That is clear from the revelation of the New Jerusalem.

The ministry of the Law by angels is an interesting subject, but I am growing a little weary today. Suffice it to say that angels are heavenly judges who determine that only the sinless may enter the Kingdom of heaven. They guard sinful mankind from the Tree of Life, and they ensured that Israel conformed to the Law. If they didn't, they brought heavenly judgment upon those who thought they could sin in secret.

Angels are interested in Christ's atonement because it seems to contradict the notion that only the perfect get into the Kingdom of heaven. But it is resolved by the transformation of the saints by grace, which is what interests the angels.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

There were other "apostles" mentioned, besides the 12 apostles, in the NT Scriptures. But clearly, the foundational doctrine was based on the testimony of the 12 apostles of Israel. That is clear from the revelation of the New Jerusalem.

The ministry of the Law by angels is an interesting subject, but I am growing a little weary today. Suffice it to say that angels are heavenly judges who determine that only the sinless may enter the Kingdom of heaven. They guard sinful mankind from the Tree of Life, and they ensured that Israel conformed to the Law. If they didn't, they brought heavenly judgment upon those who thought they could sin in secret.

Angels are interested in Christ's atonement because it seems to contradict the notion that only the perfect get into the Kingdom of heaven. But it is resolved by the transformation of the saints by grace, which is what interests the angels.

uhh yes I have read about barnabus but it doesn’t change my point barnabus never had the apostle experience like Paul and the other eleven I’m not denying that barnabus and Matthias are called apostles “ messengers” I’m saying there’s a difference in calling someone an apostle even if like said it ,or if Peter chose the apostle before the spirit was given …. and then being one of the twelve apostles of Jesus Christ set forth and approved and also names eternally in heaven by himself in the same way as Paul and the rest of the twelve

but this also is true and relevant warning

“For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭11:13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we should stick to the twelve and those doctrine at least that’s my own thinking rest well brother

 

[rayzor]

No!Think Please one fell away:The doctrine was based on the testimony of the 12 apostles.[It is written in the old testament the 11 stars]Acts Matthias was chosen buy lot to replace him. Paul seems to have replaced him at least in the bible tho not a apostle 1:23

 

[Pilgrimshope]

No!Think Please one fell away:The doctrine was based on the testimony of the 12 apostles.[It is written in the old testament the 11 stars]Acts Matthias was chosen buy lot to replace him. Paul seems to have replaced him at least in the bible tho not a apostle 1:23

one was written to have fallen away to fulfill prophecy and indeed Judas was cut out by the lord intentionally and Paul was brought in also intentionally Paul is the twelfth apostle agreed

Matthias was not chosen by Jesus , but by Peter before the Holy Spirit came and then after the soirit came Paul was shortly chosen after having the apostles experience as the prior eleven which is indeed tied to Joseph’s dream of the eleven stars in the dream the stars represent Jacob being the sun , his wife the moon and the eleven stars his eleven sons , Joseph the one who was set apart in a foreign land d suffered in captivity but all the others ended up where Joseph was of the ruler in Egypt d all bowed before him or made obesience to him as recorded

it’s a pattern and foreshadow of the gospel and the eleven apostles with our seperated at the first , and brought back together later in the number of 12

and then Paul penned the most of the New Testament reaching the foreign lands as Joseph had been cast out by his. Brothers just as Paul was cast out by the Jews , and also as Paul opposed first the message of the eleven and began to persecute them as Joseph’s brothers persecuted him before they were brought together as 12 and all this came before the mosaic law was ever introduced through angels so we understand what it is is a foretelling of the coming truth

 

[randyk]

No!Think Please one fell away:The doctrine was based on the testimony of the 12 apostles.[It is written in the old testament the 11 stars]Acts Matthias was chosen buy lot to replace him. Paul seems to have replaced him at least in the bible tho not a apostle 1:23

I think we get hung up because only 12 were chosen out of Israel. But that is because the mission began with Israel, and Israel had, initially, 12 tribes. It is a purely symbolic number.

There is no reason to suppose that others wouldn't be chosen, outside of this initial 12. Of course, the Apostle Paul and Barnabas may be the only two. They were called and sent two by two, and not just as a single emissary of God. When Paul and Barnabas split, may we assume that Paul acquired another apostle or not?

Dare we exclude Paul and Barnabas from the Twelve written on the foundation of the New Jerusalem? Obviously, the word "apostle" had a more generic meaning than that applied to "The Twelve." And yet, the original foundation for the Church was laid by the Twelve Apostles. Paul and Barnabas came later, but certainly contributed to laying the foundation for the Church.

Nevertheless, it was so important to confine them to Twelve plus Two that Paul had to explain how and when he fit in. He came in later as one "untimely born" And so, we should confine "apostleship" to the Early Church, and to Twelve plus Two perhaps?

Here are the other relevant passages, which seem to indicate apostleship transcended the Twelve. But this is arguable, since those counted as accepted by the apostles may not have been designated actual apostles, but only those accepted by the apostles as trustworthy.

Acts 14.14 But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this...

Paul and Barnabas were clearly apostles!

Acts 15.22 Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, men who were leaders among the believers.

Are we to assume Judas and Silas were determined to be apostles as well? I don't know.

Rom 16.7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

Were Andronicus and Junia apostles? Probably not, since Junia was likely a female. But perhaps Andronicus was?

1 Thes 2.6 We were not looking for praise from people, not from you or anyone else, even though as apostles of Christ we could have asserted our authority.

Who are "we" that Paul is referring to?

Heb 3.1 Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, whom we acknowledge as our apostle and high priest.

Here is a generic use of the word "apostle," and indicated it did not have to have a technical application to the Twelve alone.

Gal 1.19 19 I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother.

This may or may not indicate James was an apostle. But I don't see how it cannot be assumed, since James had such a high standing that I can hardly see the apostles as standing above him, and not including him?

There are questions about some of these references. We'll just have to decide for ourselves. But the Gospel message the Twelve brought, and Paul and Barnabas brought, and Paul and his co-workers brought, must not change. That is the point.

 

[rayzor]

no randyk the 11 because Judas fell away and the rest did not really get started until Jesus ascended to heaven.
Gen 37:9 and the 11 stars

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I think we get hung up because only 12 were chosen out of Israel. But that is because the mission began with Israel, and Israel had, initially, 12 tribes. It is a purely symbolic number.

There is no reason to suppose that others wouldn't be chosen, outside of this initial 12. Of course, the Apostle Paul and Barnabas may be the only two. They were called and sent two by two, and not just as a single emissary of God. When Paul and Barnabas split, may we assume that Paul acquired another apostle or not?

Dare we exclude Paul and Barnabas from the Twelve written on the foundation of the New Jerusalem? Obviously, the word "apostle" had a more generic meaning than that applied to "The Twelve." And yet, the original foundation for the Church was laid by the Twelve Apostles. Paul and Barnabas came later, but certainly contributed to laying the foundation for the Church.

Nevertheless, it was so important to confine them to Twelve plus Two that Paul had to explain how and when he fit in. He came in later as one "untimely born" And so, we should confine "apostleship" to the Early Church, and to Twelve plus Two perhaps?

Here are the other relevant passages, which seem to indicate apostleship transcended the Twelve. But this is arguable, since those counted as accepted by the apostles may not have been designated actual apostles, but only those accepted by the apostles as trustworthy.

Acts 14.14 But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this...

Paul and Barnabas were clearly apostles!

Acts 15.22 Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, men who were leaders among the believers.

Are we to assume Judas and Silas were determined to be apostles as well? I don't know.

Rom 16.7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

Were Andronicus and Junia apostles? Probably not, since Junia was likely a female. But perhaps Andronicus was?

1 Thes 2.6 We were not looking for praise from people, not from you or anyone else, even though as apostles of Christ we could have asserted our authority.

Who are "we" that Paul is referring to?

Heb 3.1 Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, whom we acknowledge as our apostle and high priest.

Here is a generic use of the word "apostle," and indicated it did not have to have a technical application to the Twelve alone.

Gal 1.19 19 I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother.

This may or may not indicate James was an apostle. But I don't see how it cannot be assumed, since James had such a high standing that I can hardly see the apostles as standing above him, and not including him?

There are questions about some of these references. We'll just have to decide for ourselves. But the Gospel message the Twelve brought, and Paul and Barnabas brought, and Paul and his co-workers brought, must not change. That is the point.

“There is no reason to suppose that others wouldn't be chosen, outside of this initial 12. Of course, the Apostle Paul and Barnabas may be the only two.”

there is though and it connects us to Paul directly


“And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

look at his the twelve apostles were chosen and seperated from other disciples in the four gospels he often set them apart and taught them revelation he didn’t give others

Matthias choosing isn’t the same as the other eleven were told this

“And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:49‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:8‬ ‭

Peter as he sometimes did took a step before he was told to

“And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,) Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.

And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:15-17, 23-25‬

and they cast lots to receive thier answer to prayer that’s not what Jesus told them they were praying outside of the Holy Spirit and hadn’t waited for him to come and choose the replacement which is Paul the only other man chosen by Jesus in person. It through prayer like barnabus was anointed or Matthias was chosen but only Paul received the same encounter of seeing in person Jesus the risen lord and having that chosen vessel label as e other eleven tomoresch the gospel to the world in revelation of Christ

there are only 12 men in the Bible receiving that same encounter with Jesus Christ the risen lord Judas died before he was resurrected and Matthias was chosen without the authority of the Holy Ghost .

barnabus was anointed for a specific purpose as Paul’s companion by a group of believers to deliver the particular message to the particular area accompanied by Paul

the thing that sets the 12 apart is the encounter of seeing the lord in person after he rose , and also receiving the commission of an apostle which required Jesus to choose and enable and appoint them to carry on his witness .

it’s why there are twelve names only and there are twelve men who had that same encounter as Paul and the other 11

Apostle is one who carries Jesus revelation his doctrine and understanding of it , who Jesus taught more than others and then empowered them to reveal it to all the rest

many are chosen in Christ to dofferent appointments it’s the same as if a man is a prophet , it’s a specific gift and title for specific purposes appointed by God to share his message with the others who hear it

All are called in general to witness but not all are apostles l are
Messengers in some shape but not all are apostles but 12 are eternal apostles of Christ. The rest are being made into a priesthood for the heavens within those walls held up by and named for the twelve apostles


If you look at the page before barnabus is loosely referenced as apostle you see he was sent on a mission with Paul by the church and not having the encounter of an apostle of Christs choosing and appointment it’s different because Christ word is what is forever

 

[Aaron56]

My point out the old revealed in the new is isreal is actually born through through the 12 apostles just as they had been in the ot through the twelve sons of Jacob

the ot term of the ot always holds true in the revelation of the new just like Jacob had 12 sons that became the foundation of the ot , Jesus had 12 apostles who are the foundation of the new to bring Abraham’s promises to pass for not israel the nation but for all nations who Abraham was promised to father

the names of the twelve tribes and the twelve apostles are going to be written here and are already is my point

“But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

which was of course this word

“How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the apostles set the New Testament forward in the earth it’s never going to change and there is no more left to be revealed it’s now about hearing and believing the word God has spoken into all nations

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

There is also Timothy, Titus, and Silvanus.

Furthermore, Paul refers to Peter and the eleven (Matthias included) as “the Twelve.”

Also, the Holy Spirit separated Barnabas and Paul to be apostles. The Spirit only speaks what Christ speaks. “He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.”

Christ is still speaking, and, among the teachers and prophets who confirmed Paul and Barnabas, how is the Lord’s direction, speaking through the Spirit to men, any less valid than His own words? It is not. It is His own words: spoken by Christ, heard by the Holy Spirit, and spoken to men. Paul confirmed Timothy in such a way: heard from the Spirit and laid hands on him to confirm his calling.

You are a good student of the scriptures. Surely you can find the references of the things I write to you.

 

[randyk]

no randyk the 11 because Judas fell away and the rest did not really get started until Jesus ascended to heaven.
Gen 37:9 and the 11 stars

That prophecy was fulfilled in Joseph's time. He and his brother were the 11th and 12th sons of Jacob. All 11, when they went down into Egypt, had to honor Joseph as ruler under Pharaoh.

 

[randyk]

“There is no reason to suppose that others wouldn't be chosen, outside of this initial 12. Of course, the Apostle Paul and Barnabas may be the only two.”

there is though and it connects us to Paul directly


“And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

look at his the twelve apostles were chosen and seperated from other disciples in the four gospels he often set them apart and taught them revelation he didn’t give others

Matthias choosing isn’t the same as the other eleven were told this

“And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:49‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:8‬ ‭

Peter as he sometimes did took a step before he was told to

“And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,) Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.

And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:15-17, 23-25‬

and they cast lots to receive thier answer to prayer that’s not what Jesus told them they were praying outside of the Holy Spirit and hadn’t waited for him to come and choose the replacement which is Paul the only other man chosen by Jesus in person. It through prayer like barnabus was anointed or Matthias was chosen but only Paul received the same encounter of seeing in person Jesus the risen lord and having that chosen vessel label as e other eleven tomoresch the gospel to the world in revelation of Christ

there are only 12 men in the Bible receiving that same encounter with Jesus Christ the risen lord Judas died before he was resurrected and Matthias was chosen without the authority of the Holy Ghost .

barnabus was anointed for a specific purpose as Paul’s companion by a group of believers to deliver the particular message to the particular area accompanied by Paul

the thing that sets the 12 apart is the encounter of seeing the lord in person after he rose , and also receiving the commission of an apostle which required Jesus to choose and enable and appoint them to carry on his witness .

it’s why there are twelve names only and there are twelve men who had that same encounter as Paul and the other 11

Apostle is one who carries Jesus revelation his doctrine and understanding of it , who Jesus taught more than others and then empowered them to reveal it to all the rest

many are chosen in Christ to dofferent appointments it’s the same as if a man is a prophet , it’s a specific gift and title for specific purposes appointed by God to share his message with the others who hear it

All are called in general to witness but not all are apostles l are
Messengers in some shape but not all are apostles but 12 are eternal apostles of Christ. The rest are being made into a priesthood for the heavens within those walls held up by and named for the twelve apostles


If you look at the page before barnabus is loosely referenced as apostle you see he was sent on a mission with Paul by the church and not having the encounter of an apostle of Christs choosing and appointment it’s different because Christ word is what is forever

The trouble with this is, all your points are made by speculation, and not by the Scriptures themselves. Nothing indicates that the choice of Barnabas, or the choice of Matthias, was uninspired. This is completely judgmentalism on your part--nothing in the Scriptures explicitly says this!

Naturally, the Twelve were special apostles, chosen as those who were trained directly by the Lord himself. Faulty men had to actually live with and listen to Jesus, as he repeated his messages, until they could reliably share these things with others, without critical errors being passed on. The Twelve were very important for this reason, which is why they are designated as the Twelve.

On the other hand, Jesus also sent out 70 to share his Gospel, even while Israel was still under the Law. Many more than the Twelve were trained by Jesus and sent out to represent him as ambassadors of his soon coming Kingdom.

I find no reason to delegitimize Barnabas, who joined Paul on his early missionary trips, and who also was referred to as an "apostle." Leaving your judgmentalism aside, and your speaking for the Scriptures, we are left with the fact there were twelve special apostles, specially trained by the Lord, and very close to him, living with him. And there were a few others designated as apostles contributing to the foundation of the Church, including Paul and Barnabas, and possibly James and a few others.

 

[rayzor]

That prophecy was fulfilled in Joseph's time. He and his brother were the 11th and 12th sons of Jacob. All 11, when they went down into Egypt, had to honor Joseph as ruler under Pharaoh.

dynamic equivalence the 11 & randyk y can't it be both? that 12 stars?

 

[randyk]

That prophecy was fulfilled in Joseph's time. He and his brother were the 11th and 12th sons of Jacob. All 11, when they went down into Egypt, had to honor Joseph as ruler under Pharaoh.

dynamic equivalence the 11 & randyk y can't it be both? that 12 stars?

In context, the vision Joseph had concerned his future relationship with his family in Egypt. Yes, Joseph is a type of Christ. How you see him as a type of Christ controls how you might interpret this. I don't believe the 12 sons of Jacob were symbolic of the 12 apostles of Christ. But I do believe the 12 apostles of Christ were called to represent, symbolically, the 12 tribes of Israel.

 

[rayzor]

Pilgrimshope There where 70 just like the old testament. In some translations that where not of the inner cicle.There where more of course remember the one they rebuked for casting out demons,Jesus said rebuke him not.