Saved by Water

[SophieT]

I did not mean to suggest there was anything other than the requirements associated with the NT rebirth as stated on the Day of Pentecost. (Acts 2:38) My point was Jesus gave his apostles commands relevant to the spiritual rebirth while alive on the earth, as well as through the Holy Ghost after his resurrection.

well but you think water baptism is a part of that

 

[SophieT]

One MUST believe what Jesus said about salvation. That's saving faith.

and what was that according to you?

I have posted many verses about salvation and you want to question how I was saved?

you just assume far too much about others while illustrating ignorance of one of the most important doctrines of the Bible

just get off your little 'look at me' soapbox all ready. it's boring

 

[KelbyofGod]

why play hide 'n seek with the Bible? really? you have to 'pray' about whether or not to answer me? God has to 'grant' an answer?

gee....whatever happened to be ready in season and out of season.....

if someone asks you if you are a Christian and you are not sure if they are going to shoot you or not, you going to pray about how to answer? get real

well let's see. I was saved at 5, water baptized as a young teen ager and spirit baptized around 18

so according to you and Blik, I was not saved until I actually was that young teen ager . only no. I was saved at 5

but its even better for Blik...water baptism for her/him (I don't know) came after the other 2, so what kind of tongues were going on if Blik was not even saved? very scary thought and frankly, Blik was also saved before water baptism

but see...I did not ask you if you thought baptism was necessary. I believe we should follow scripture and be water baptized. I asked you if you thought a person was not saved if they were not water baptized. so, you dodge.

Hey listen.....if that is what you think....then OWN IT!



yes we know that. but that is not the discussion and not the reason Blik started their umpteenth thread on water

perhaps Blik has not got past water baptism and is still unsure how to proceed?

1. Do you realize we are speaking in a thread that was not started by Blik?

2. In the time since you were spirit baptized, do you use it much? (Legitimate question, not just filler)

3. I was raised in a church that taught heavy reliance on the catch-all term "saved" as if it only has one meaning. I appreciate some things they taught like reading the bible and believing God is who he says he is and that Jesus died for our sins, etc. But except in word only (doctrine only), I could have said with the Ephesians (in Acts 19:2) "We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost." No matter how much someone believes Jesus died for their sins (which is of course a fact), the bible clearly states "If any man have not the spirit of Christ, he is NONE of his." (Romans 8:9) So as much as they could declare me "Saved" It was impossible for me to be one of God's elect, until and unless I received the Holy Ghost. You were fortunate enough to receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost while still holding on to the reliance on "Saved". That is interesting to me in the idea that I don't think you understand the importance of what you received. God had to do some significant working with me to get me to someone who could expound the word more completely to me (Acts 18:26) regarding Baptism in water and Baptism in the Holy Ghost before I could walk in those truths.

4. It is not unwise to take things to prayer before speaking.

5. You should have asked WHY I said water baptism is the mechanism GOD (not man) established for remission of sins, instead of just saying "that is not true".

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[FreeGrace2]

because it isn't automatic.WEll yea it is.[ but the kingdom of suffer violence and take it by force]Remember the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.]Duality new nature does not sin just as automatic as the flesh

Right. But there is a choice to make regarding to whom we present ourselves, as Paul taught in Romans 6.

So, nothing is "automatic".

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
One MUST believe what Jesus said about salvation. That's saving faith.

and what was that according to you?

Let's start with John 3:16, then move to John 5:24 and arrive at John 10:28.

I have posted many verses about salvation and you want to question how I was saved?

Please read my posts before assuming something that I didn't do.

I asked you about your comment about being "spirit baptized" years after "getting saved". Since the baptism of the Holy Spirit occurs WHEN one gets saved, please explain how that happened.

you just assume far too much about others while illustrating ignorance of one of the most important doctrines of the Bible

Actually, all the assuming is yours. I respond according to what others posts. You need to explain (defend) your belief that the baptism of the Spirit occurs any time AFTER getting saved. Please include clear Scripture.

just get off your little 'look at me' soapbox all ready. it's boring

Your opinions are getting rather tired. How about we just look at Scripture, which is my focus. Can you do that?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

5. You should have asked WHY I said water baptism is the mechanism GOD (not man) established for remission of sins, instead of just saying "that is not true".

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Its not true

It is replacing the work of God with the work of Man.

It places water baptism done by the work of man with spirit baptism done by the work of God.

In laymens terms, its called blasphemy.

 

[Wansvic]

now you guys tell me about infant baptism, OK?
is it any different than just spraying down the wicked with a hose & expecting salvation results?

Infant baptism and baptizing unbelievers is not biblical. Obedience to the command to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus for the remission of sin accomplishes nothing unless accompanied by an absolute belief in the entire gospel message. (Acts 2, Mark 16:15-16)

 

[SophieT]

1. Do you realize we are speaking in a thread that was not started by Blik?

haha too funny. you know this am I thought about whether or not I had used Blik instead of Wansvic

just transcribe the name and the post is the same Blik is big on the commandments...as in keep them as part of salvation

2. In the time since you were spirit baptized, do you use it much? (Legitimate question, not just filler)

very. that being said, there is no guarantee that people who are spirit baptized will all come to the same agreement...but generally I find I have much more in common with those who practice the gifts of the Spirit

3. I was raised in a church that taught heavy reliance on the catch-all term "saved" as if it only has one meaning.

I left off the rest of that paragraph for saving space in this post, but I read it. Well you jumped to some conclusions about me. I was also raised in a church similar to what you describe and 'tongues' were not for 'today. But I always had a hungry heart and God led me in another direction. I simply believed and He filled me with speaking in tongues on the spot...alone in my room as a teenager and yes thank you I certainly do know the import of this. Believe it or not, I have always sought to know God as He is and not as others want to say He is.

4. It is not unwise to take things to prayer before speaking.

well I didn't say it was...however, if you already know where you stand, then just say what you believe. if people are being honest, that should be no problem IMO. now if we are talking about speaking to an unsaved person? or a new Christian? whole other story there

5. You should have asked WHY I said water baptism is the mechanism GOD (not man) established for remission of sins, instead of just saying "that is not true".

I see. I should have asked. I didn't know there was a curriculum involved in answering you. it still isn't true though

 

[Wansvic]

@FreeGrace2 Please provide scripture that confirms your belief that one receives the Holy Ghost the moment they believe in Jesus' death, burial and resurrection.

 

[SophieT]

@FreeGrace2 Please provide scripture that confirms your belief that one receives the Holy Ghost the moment they believe in Jesus' death, burial and resurrection.

I've got him on ignore now. I am so up to here with people trying to say the gifts are not for today. but for some reason, they all seem to think that teaching is their personal gift.

they have John MacArthur syndrome

 

[FreeGrace2]

@FreeGrace2 Please provide scripture that confirms your belief that one receives the Holy Ghost the moment they believe in Jesus' death, burial and resurrection.

Fair enough.

Cornelius is the example:

Acts 10-
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.
46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said,
47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”
48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

This shows that Cornelius and family/household received the indwelling Holy Spirit BEFORE water baptism.

Acts 11 explains in further detail.

15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.
16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”
18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.

Peter and his 6 companions viewed Cornelius and Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit as the sign that they were saved. We know Cornelius and family/friends were saved because of v.17. The gift given to believers is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Just as Gal 3:2 and 5 say. The Holy Spirit is received on the basis of faith, just as salvation is.

2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I've got him on ignore now. I am so up to here with people trying to say the gifts are not for today. but for some reason, they all seem to think that teaching is their personal gift.

they have John MacArthur syndrome

Your comments (snipes) are beyond funny. MacArthur is a Calvinist, which I'm not. Neither Arminian.

It's easier to ignore someone that to have an honest discussion, esp when you know you can't defend your own position. I asked for Scripture that supports your claim that you were Spirit baptized years after "getting saved".

So, now, you don't have to answer my request for biblical support.

Slick.

 

[Wansvic]

Fair enough.

Cornelius is the example:

Acts 10-
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.
46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said,
47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”
48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

This shows that Cornelius and family/household received the indwelling Holy Spirit BEFORE water baptism.

Acts 11 explains in further detail.

15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.
16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”
18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.

Peter and his 6 companions viewed Cornelius and Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit as the sign that they were saved. We know Cornelius and family/friends were saved because of v.17. The gift given to believers is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Just as Gal 3:2 and 5 say. The Holy Spirit is received on the basis of faith, just as salvation is.

2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

My point is receiving the Holy Ghost is not always the first thing that happens when a person believes the entire gospel message. To teach this is a mistake. Why? Because the word says doctrine will always be confirmed by 2-3 witnesses. And, we see from the biblical record that the sequence in receiving the Holy Ghost did differ. And there is always a reason for God doing what he does. Many times God will show us the reason if we are willing to look past our personal bias.

The account in Acts 10 is the only place we see individuals receiving the Holy Ghost immediately after being told of Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. Why? One can conclude that Peter would have hesitated to allow Gentiles to be water baptized for the remission of sin without assurance that God had accepted them to receive repentance unto life. (Acts 11:17-18) This truth is actually expressed in Acts 10, verse 47 where Peter makes this statement, "Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized in water."

You point out Galatians 3:2, 5 as evidence that people receive the Holy Spirit after believing the gospel message. And that is absolutely true. Everyone who believes the gospel message will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit but not always at the exact moment they hear it as proven through scripture.

Lastly, your comment that Peter and his companions viewed the Gentiles as saved because God filled them with his Spirit is your personal opinion and should be expressed as such. I state this in light of the message Peter presented on the Day of Pentecost.

 

[Wansvic]

@FreeGrace2 One point of clarification in reference to a part of post #333:

You point out Galatians 3:2, 5 as evidence that people receive the Holy Spirit after believing the gospel message. And that is absolutely true. *Everyone who believes the gospel message will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit but not always at the exact moment they hear it as proven through scripture.

*Believing the gospel message anticipates obedience to it's commands; repentance, and submitting to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus.

 

[Wansvic]

well but you think water baptism is a part of that

I believe the bible. It states water baptism is a part of it.

 

[HisKid]

Paul's teaching has nothing to do with the requirements of baptism. We must keep elements of scripture in context. There are several, including Acts 2;38 which requires baptism to complete the sin cleansing process.
Any other teaching is changing the Bible meaning and intent and is in violation Rev 22; 18,19 as well as the same repeated in 2 other books of the Bible...that we have no authority to change the Bible meaning and if we do all the wrath of God will be on our heads.

In my experience, the only organizations who believe dipping someone in water actually cleanses someone of sin are man-made religions. Specifically Catholicism.

Can you baptize in water an unrepentant person and they will be cleansed of sin? Answer is no. The water does nothing. Also, you cannot sprinkle water onto an infant and magically they are cleansed of sin. Forgiveness happens when you repent.

 

[HisKid]

I believe the bible. It states water baptism is a part of it.

Matthew 3:11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

 

[SophieT]

I believe the bible. It states water baptism is a part of it.

I know what you believe

I believe what the Bible states also. does not state water baptism saves

does say that water baptism follows salvation as a sign that you are a follower of Christ and you signify your death in His by going under the water and new life by coming out

don't drown. not sure what that would signify

 

[Wansvic]

Matthew 3:11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Both water baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost are required. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6, 22:16) One did not replace the other. In fact water baptism was modified include the name of the Lord Jesus for the remission of sin in associated with Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. This began on the Day of Pentecost as Jesus said it would. (Luke 24:47)

 

[HisKid]

Both water baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost are required. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6, 22:16) One did not replace the other. In fact water baptism was modified include the name of the Lord Jesus for the remission of sin in associated with Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. This began on the Day of Pentecost as Jesus said it would. (Luke 24:47)

No mention of water baptism in Luke 24
44And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48And ye are witnesses of these things. 49And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.