Paul's Conversion

[eternally-gratefull]

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims he has faith, but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14)

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the 'sense' in which Abraham was 'justified by works.' He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.”

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3).

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness. Luke 6:45 - A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the 'sense' in which God was 'justified.' He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

Beating the same old dead horse bro. Pray he listens this time

 

[Wansvic]

Just answer the question.

Do you need to be baptised to be saved.

I have said I don't believe you have to be baptised to be saved.

Please just answer my question.
Don't avoid.
If you keep doing so then you have no integrity or credibility.

I will repeat again for me.

Baptism does not save us our sins were forgiven and washed away on the cross.
Removed as far as the east is from the west and buried under the deepest ocean.

It is interesting that you refuse to accept what Ananias told Paul. You do know that without the washing away of one's personal sins they cannot enter heaven, right?

Again, "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Acts 22:16

You must not be reading my entire posts. I have stated many times that I believe what the word states. And the word states one must be water baptized in addition to believing, repenting and receiving the Holy Ghost in order to be saved.

 

[SophieT]

Do you define yourself by your denomination, or do you define yourself as a child of God?
It can't be both.

And i hope you understand that there are no denominations in heaven, there are only born again Christians, God, Christ, and host of Heaven.

Denominations are MAN MADE.......not God Created.
Denominations keep believers apart, and in some cases, that has to be so.

So, you asked me if Charismatics are a cult....

Well......It depends on the specific denomination, and what they teach., as its what is being taught that defines a cult.

The United Pentecostals for example, are a cult.

So, in regards to how Pentecostals approach "SALVATiON"< is usually a real issue, and how they approach their obsession with "tongues" and "the infilling, or the Baptism of the Holy Spirit", can be completely anti-New Testament.

For example, teaching that unless you "speak in tongues" you are not really born again, is incredible heresy.
Or to teach that "there is a 2nd infilling that is the baptism of the holy spirit", is completely the invention of Pentecostals.

So, it just depends on how far out they are, per denomination.........and as i said....the "word of faith" Pentecostals, are in general not caught up in the deeper heresies.

that is really a bit of a dodgy answer

I am well aware of what salvation is and the fact there are no denoms in heaven

I didn't ask you about that though...I asked 2 specific questions...I did not ask for a review of salvation 101

within Pentecostals and Charismatics, there are different types (for lack of a better word) just as with all denoms

you might have noticed I said I am neither Pentecostal or Charasmatic and in the same sense I am not anything but a believer in Christ. I don't like labels as it is

So, you asked me if Charismatics are a cult....

no I did not. I asked you if YOU believed they were a cult because of what you said in your post

here is what you said in yr post 71

And about those Charismatics....
They all teach that you can lose your salvation, so, thats the proof they are all "fallen from Grace'.
See, if you believe you can lose your salvation, then that is because you dont BELIEVE THAT CHRIST keeps you saved.
= "fallen from Grace".
Within this sect or cult, you can find...>"word of Faith" churches, and they are Charismatic, but most are not fallen from Grace.
They know that Salvation is Eternal Life, and that Eternal life is not temporary............ as Jesus who is Eternal Life in IN US.
So, where He is, we are.......and where He goes.........we go.

do you see that? I think you do. you said ALL which is what I objected to

 

[SophieT]

Truth is going to cause division.
That will never change.

so do exaggerations and lumping everyone together as though none had proper understanding

so I guess it seems you believe all Pentecostals are a cult...as you originally stated

I don't think anyone but God Himself can sort out the mess that is Christianity today.

that being said, I do appreciate much of what you say

 

[Wansvic]

Those who lay such heavy burdens on fellow believers will answer for this before Jesus.

Heavy burden? Really? The need to believe in Jesus' death, burial and resurrection, and repent, and submit to being immersed in the water's of baptism is what you consider a heavy burden?

 

[Wansvic]

Listen,

IN The devil's version of the bible, the Douay Rheims, the devil caused the translator to translate...."Born of water,", in John 3, as :

"Born AGAIN by water".

See that change? That is a Satanic mistranslation.

All approved Greek texts and all real bibles, in John 3 say...>>"born of water".....so that you know this is you being born of your Mother when her WATER BREAKS, and out comes the BABY"

See that? That is how you are born of water on EARTH.

Now, .....Jesus then says, you must have a 2nd Birthday......>"Born AGAIN".

See that? Thats your Spiritual birth, performed by GOD's Holy Spirit.

So, the Catholic Devil's bible says......>"Born AGAIN by water"..........and that is teaching that the WATER is the Spirit of God, which denies that God is the Holy Spirit.

Here is the reality.
We are born again, SPIRITUALLY, by the SPIRIT OF GOD........not by water, as the Devil's bible teaches.

So, when a person is teaching that WATER causes the Spiritual Birth, then they are substituting WATER for the Spirit of God, as redemption.
That is an extreme blasphemy.
Make sure you dont teach this blasphemy of "water saves" or "water causes the new birth".....Wansvic.

We were discussing when the bible says Paul's sins were forgiven were we not? Why do you continue to deflect?

"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Acts 22:16

 

[Wansvic]

it's a wonder we aren't told that all of Pharaoh's army were baptized in the Red Sea

I suppose some might say that is really bad humor, but these saved by water threads are enough already

Why not address what the presented scripture actually says?

Acts 22:15-16
For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

 

[Kidron]

that is really a bit of a dodgy answer


do you see that? I think you do. you said ALL which is what I Objected to

You seem nice, but you are now upset as if my post had your name in it, when in fact, i was talking only about the general doctrines of many denominations that i have listed, and what i said is true, as i have researched their "articles of faith", and you have not.

See, I gave no dodgy answer, as you insinuated.......
Also you should not be so sensitive to feel insulted if i speak about a denomination that teaches legalism.
You feel called out, yet, i never named you. I was talking specifically about a teaching that defines the religious organizations that i named, as Legalistic.

Also, i wrote...>"sect or cult".......So, i made the distinction between the Charismatics that are not Legalists, and those who are....

I dont consider all of the Pentecostal/Charismatics denominations to be a Cult. But most of them, are Legalistic.....but not all., as i said.
If you tell me what your particular denomination is called, i will research their Articles of Faith, if they are available, and if they teach that you must "do works to maintain salvation" .. or if they teach "you can lose your salvation if you dont ......", then i will get back with you, and let you know.
I dont mind doing the research, as its always best to know the truth.

See, in no way could i have known that you are a Charismatic/Pentecostal ?????????, which should inform you perfectly, that i was not posting about you, personally,

 

[SophieT]

Why not address what the presented scripture actually says?

Acts 22:15-16
For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

LOL! you do not address what the Bible says. you distort, twist and ADD to it

personal interpretation in conjunction with whatever church you attend

people have covered your objections multiple of multiple times, every verse you have used and every remark you have made

salvation is not about water. I am sorry, truly sorry, that you do not believe you were saved until YEARS after you actually were saved

just about unbelievable!

 

[Wansvic]

I hate to be sarcastic towards anyone but this needs to be said.

Wansvic is so hung-up on water, I wonder if he thinks Pharaoh's chariot army was baptized when the red sea collapsed upon them. Maybe the Earth was baptized in the Great Flood.

Sorry just could not help myself.

Instead of attacking the messenger why not examine the significance of the message:

Acts 22:16
"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

 

[SophieT]

You seem nice, but you are now upset as if my post had your name in it, when in fact, i was talking only about the general doctrines of many denominations that i have listed, and what i said is true, as i have researched their "articles of faith", and you have not.

See, I gave no dodgy answer, as you insinuated.......
Also you should not be so sensitive to feel insulted if i speak about a denomination that teaches legalism.
You feel called out, yet, i never named you. I was talking specifically about a teaching that defines the religious organizations that i named, as Legalistic.

Also, i wrote...>"sect or cult".......So, i made the distinction between the Charismatics that are not Legalists, and those who are....

I dont consider all of the Pentecostal/Charismatics denominations to be a Cult. But most of them, are Legalistic.....but not all., as i said.
If you tell me what your particular denomination is called, i will research their Articles of Faith, if they are available, and if they teach that you must "do works to maintain salvation" .. or if they teach "you can lose your salvation if you dont ......", then i will get back with you, and let you know.
I dont mind doing the research, as its always best to know the truth.

See, in no way could i have known that you are a Charismatic/Pentecostal ?????????, which should inform you perfectly, that i was not posting about you, personally,

good grief I am NOT upset. I speak my mind, that's all. no further explanation needed...actually makes me think you do not want to be misunderstood...while neither do I...but no worries at all. as I said, I do like much of what you state and agree with it

no worries....after years on forums, I do not get upset at much and not insulted either. it's really not personal. there is also always the ignore feature too

good that you do not consider ALL Pentecostals to be a cult...I agree that legalism kills and that church is rife with it

I actually do not have a denom.. I told you that.

thanks

 

[SophieT]

Instead of attacking the messenger why not examine the significance of the message:

Acts 22:16
"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

and who is the messenger? it's actually not you. you are not the Holy Spirit and you do not speak for Him.

as it is, I'm not responding to you again in this thread

it's the same ole worn out nonsense that you have spouted for some yrs now. you really should have your own personal one stop water thread

 

[Wansvic]

My God

It’s Gods mercy not our obedience if it’s our obedience it’s not Mercy it’s a reward

You are neglecting to compare apples with apples again.

God's mercy is seen in His willingness to provide a way of salvation for mankind through the sacrifice of Jesus. God provided man with instructions that all must comply with; belief, repentance, water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus and receiving the Holy Ghost.

 

[Kidron]

We were discussing when the bible says Paul's sins were forgiven were we not? Why do you continue to deflect?

"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Acts 22:16

Paul had to believe, FIRST.
This happened before He met Ananias, as you find that He called Jesus...."LORD".
This happens in the heart, and not in the water., and it happened to Paul before he was baptized in water.
Jesus was Paul's -"LORD"< before Ananias talked to Paul about John the Baptist's water baptism for Jews.

So, what you have, is a Jew, Ananias..... who is talking to Paul regarding the Baptism of John the Baptist.
This Jew knows nothing about Spiritual Baptism, as that was taught by Paul, much later.
He also does not know that "faith is counted as righteousness", or anything about "Justification by faith", as these were taught by Paul, much later.

So, what you have here, is a standard situation that some Apostles had also...., and this is the same issue that Ananias has...

Its this........ "you can't know what you dont know, until you know it".

So, Ananias, is talking to Paul about John the Baptist's water baptism for JEWS, as that is all he knows... to tell Paul.

Later, .......Paul tells us that Christ didn't send Him to water baptize.....so, that isn't a contradiction,. that is the Gentile Apostle, understanding LATER that the Grace of God is to be born again by : SPIRITUAL Baptism......not by water.
Ananias didnt yet have this revelation, as Paul was the one who would much LATER bring this revelation to the Church.

Ananias not knowing anything about the Gospel of The Grace of God, is why he is talking to Paul about John the Baptist's old covenant water baptism that was given only to : JEWS.
This is like Peter, in ACTs 10, not yet knowing that Gentiles can be SAVED.

See, when you dont know something, you can't teach it., and you sometimes find this in the NT, and these that are doing something that isn't "church doctrine"....., are doing only what they know to do, until later, when they learned MORE REVELATION.

 

[Wansvic]

Yes, Paul was given insight, but you have turned a blind eye to the attributes of Paul that God used if that is all you understand.

I do understand the points you made about Paul. I just didn't see there relevance to the topic of the NT rebirth experience being discussed.

 

[Kidron]

I actually do not have a denom.. I told you that.

ummmmmmmm

i never said that Charismatics have a "demon"...

I'll tell you what ive seen......Ive seen Charismatics take children into a room, and try to make them ""speak in tongues"..

I've seen this from 10 feet away, as i was in the room.

They would go to each child in the room......say, 7-12 yrs old, and say....."ok, im going to show you how to do it......now, what you do is just let the spirit lead your mouth........you just start and you dont have to say words, you just allow the spirit to have your tongue.......now, let me show you what you can say that will get it started and then, just let it go.......just let it happen.........say this...........hosta, hosta, hosta, hosta la , hosta la, hosta la shandi.....hosta la shondi ....hosta la shondi........c'mon.....say it.....just say it and then let it go, just let it happen".

Where did i see this?

1.) Assembly of God Church, .. a big one, in the USA.


That's not of God., and will never be, and that is not the only Charismatic Organization that does that to kids.

Do i consider this "demon possession".
I do not.
I consider it STUPID AND IGNORANT AND PRETENTIOUS, AND COMPLETELY FAKE, ... because that is what it is.


Now, do i teach against "gift of the Spirit".........i do not.
But i can smell spiritual fake, as ive been doing what i do, since 1991.


God bless,


-K

 

[Wansvic]

by Peter?

My point was Paul's experience can be seen as a parallel to Peter's initial message given to the Jews at Pentecost, to the Gentiles, and the Samaritans.

Number one, Paul acknowledged Jesus was Lord. He obeyed Jesus instructions and went to Ananias in order to see what was required of him. This shows a willingness to change direction and turn to God. He receives the Holy Ghost and gets baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus in order for his sins to be washed away.

 

[Wansvic]

Christ’s blood washed away my sins not water.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

When did Jesus wash us from our sins in His blood? According to the referenced scripture it is when one obeys the God-given command of water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

This is seen in Acts 2:38 as well:
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

 

[Kidron]

My point was Paul's experience can be seen as a parallel to Peter's initial message given to the Jews at Pentecost, to the Gentiles, and the Samaritans.

Peter was taught the Gospel of the Grace of God by Paul.
Peter didnt even know that Gentiles could be saved, even many years after Christ was back in Heaven. See : Acts 10
Peter is not the apostle to the gentiles, and in fact, later teaches in 2nd Peter that Paul's LETTERS, that he had in his possession, are equal to the TORAH.
So, that is peter saying that Paul's letters, are equal to what Jesus read from, when He was here.

 

[Kidron]

When did Jesus wash us from our sins in His blood?

God gives the Spiritual Baptism when you believe in Jesus, and are born again.

Salvation has 2 parts.

1.) you BELIEVE, and God justifies you by this faith, and applies the BLOOD ATONEMENT to you.... and this makes you "the righteousness of God, in Christ"......instantly.

2.) THEN, God gives you the NEW BIRTH.......>He causes your spirit to be born again INTO His Holy Spirit, by His Holy Spirit. .

What comes next?
Well, you could be water baptized. Thats what Paul did.
I wasn't. I did that 11 yrs after i was born again.
Many do it soon after they are born again.

Those who are deceived, do it instead of being born again, and then come on forums like this one and talk about Water water, water water, as water is their savior,.........which is whey they talk about water.