If they agree with me, they agree with the Bible.
So, what's wrong with Arminianism and Calvinism? Why don't they believe the Bible?
Biblical Eternal Security vs 'Calvinistic Eternal Security' -by Gregg Jackson
- Thread starter ChosenbyHim
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So, what's wrong with Arminianism and Calvinism? Why don't they believe the Bible?
OK. One question. You said "and He gives to them eternal life". Where did you find the plural of "give" in v.28?
Jesus actually said, "I GIVE them eternal life".
So, the question: WHEN does Jesus GIVE the gift of eternal life to believers? And what verse says so?
Thanks.
OK. One question. You said "and He gives to them eternal life". Where did you find the plural of "give" in v.28?
Jesus actually said, "I GIVE them eternal life".
So, the question: WHEN does Jesus GIVE the gift of eternal life to believers? And what verse says so?
Thanks.
I'm not speaking on behalf of Chester but the grammatical context was clear enough, well for me anyhow.
Chester was talking in the 3rd person, explaining what Jesus said in the 1st person.
The plural form of give is believe it or not 'give' .
OK. One question. You said "and He gives to them eternal life". Where did you find the plural of "give" in v.28?
Jesus actually said, "I GIVE them eternal life".
So, the question: WHEN does Jesus GIVE the gift of eternal life to believers? And what verse says so?
Thanks.
LOL! The issue is not over "give" or "gives': the issue is over how you define "eternal life".
Good-bye! I will let you to your theologies and doctrines . . .
No it's not. Eternal life is a gift, per Rom 6:23. Is that so hard to define? A gift??
OK, so you aren't able to explain yourself. Whatever.
You know good and well what Jesus said in John 10:28. He was explaining eternal security.
iow, when the gift of eternal life is given, the recipient shall never perish.
So then, we know that eternal security is based on receiving the gift of eternal life.
However one wants to define eternal life. That isn't the issue.
The whole point of v.28 is about eternal security. And Jesus made it very clear. He is the One who determines who gets eternal life.
And on that basis, the recipient shall never perish.
Sure flies in the face of your "man-made doctrine" comment, huh.
Because it is a fact 'Jesus gives eternal life'
Salvation itself is an ongoing reality for the believer. We have been saved, we are being saved and will be saved.
It's part of that 'already, not yet' tension we read in the NT. Here is an example:
We have already been redeemed - Ephesians 1:7
But not yet - Ephesians 4:30
Of course!
Eph 2:8 is clear: we are saved by GRACE, through faith. Sad that so many people want to add works to the equation.
Eph 2:8 is obviously about Jesus.
Here's the issue. There are NO verses that include anything OTHER THAN faith. So it is alone. And it's all GRACE.
What I said is supported by Scripture.
Rom 8-
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,
39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
The blue words clearly indicate that there is NOTHING in the future that can result in being separated from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus.
You are assuming that ceasing to believe results in ceasing to be saved. What Scripture says that? None whatsoever.
Instead we have these verses:
John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
These 2 verses are clear. Condemnation (lake of fire) is for those who "have not believed", meaning NEVER believed.
If a person dies without having ever believed in Christ, they ARE condemned.
Those who HAVE believed in Christ will NEVER be condemned.
What does eternal security have to do with free choice??
You call eternal security a "man-made doctrine". You are only half right.
Jesus said this: "I give them (believers) eternal life and they SHALL NEVER PERISH." John 10:28
But your comments reveal that you do not believe this at all.
Jesus is truly human. And He is also truly God.
You should believe what Jesus said. When He gives eternal life, the recipient shall never perish.
So, when does He give the gift of eternal life?
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
The word "has" shows that from the moment of believing in Christ, the believer HAS eternal life.
So Jesus' promise in John 10:28 is from the moment of believing.
I am going to comment on this part of your post:
You said:
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
The word "has" shows that from the moment of believing in Christ, the believer HAS eternal life.
Your conclusion here does not even have good grammatical sense. This verse clearly states that the one hearing the Word and is believing on the one (The Father) who sent Christ, is proof that they already have eternal life.
Shall we break this verse down rather than just making it say what you want it to say. The verb tenses defined:
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that is hearing (Present Active Participle) my word, and is believing (Present Active Participle) him that sent (Aorist Active Participle) me, is having (Present Active Indicative) eternal life, and comes not (Present Indicative) into judgment, but has passed out (Perfect Active Indicative) of death into life.
So this verse is saying: Because one has passed out of death into life, that one can hear the Word and believe and is in possession of eternal life.
Why do I say this is the proper interpretation? Because the Perfect tense verb was used in that ones "passing from death into life". Since the "Perfect tense" magnifies past action with continuing results, the one now hearing and believing, somewhere in the past, was granted eternal life and with the Perfect tense, was not only granted this life in the past but guarantees that they will continue in the state of being "passed out of" until the end of time. No greater verb tense, is used by the writers, than the Perfect tense.
There is no way of knowing for certain, how far back in the past this verb takes us. It may take us all the way back to eternity but I think it more reasonable, to assume it goes back to the "New Birth" All believers know, that the "new Birth" must take place first, in order to change ones "nature" from darkness and enmity with God, to light and love for God.
Those who teach or who believe that the "New Birth" takes place upon believing, are sadly and grievously misinformed or mistaken. A person will not choose to believe something, that is opposed to his/her very nature. If ones old nature is "darkness" (John 3:19, Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 6:14, Eph. 5:8, Col. 1:13), it will not choose "light", the complete opposite of that nature and it is totally unreasonable and illogical to believe it would. God must alter the fallen nature in order for one to desire to come to the light.
Yes, there are 3 tenses regarding salvation.
We HAVE BEEN saved from the Penalty of sin. Our justification
We ARE BEING saved from the Power of sin. Our sanctification
We WILL BE saved from the Presence of sin. Our glorification
There is no tension in the Bible. There is a lot of misunderstanding about the Bible.
All so-called tensions simply fail to understand the 3 tenses of salvation. That's all.
Yes, there are 3 tenses regarding salvation.
We HAVE BEEN saved from the Penalty of sin. Our justification
We ARE BEING saved from the Power of sin. Our sanctification
We WILL BE saved from the Presence of sin. Our glorification
There is no tension in the Bible. There is a lot of misunderstanding about the Bible.
All so-called tensions simply fail to understand the 3 tenses of salvation. That's all.
I think you fail to understand the point. This might help.
"Already, but not yet" describes the tension between the benefits of redemption already experienced in this life and those benefits which await us at the consummation. Christians enjoy the "alreadyness" of the Atonement—remission of sins, adoption as children, the indwelling Holy Spirit, etc.
However, there is a sense in which we will not see these realities in totality until the last day (1 John 3:2), and so they always remain objects of faith. For instance, the believer already has eternal life (John 5:24), but he is not yet physically resurrected. Likewise, the church is a fellowship of persons who are both new creatures in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17) and still imperfect sinners. We await our glorification and the destruction of our sinful natures in the last day. [Quoted]
When you read the above and then re read what I had already posted, it might help you to understand this reality from scripture.
It's part of that 'already, not yet' tension we read in the NT. Here is an example:
We have already been redeemed - Ephesians 1:7
But not yet - Ephesians 4:30
How is that? I was pointing out the present tense for both 'believe' and 'has'. Essentially, a believing person possesses eternal life.
And that clearly means the MOMENT they believe they possess eternal life. iow, Jesus gives eternal life WHEN a person believes.
If you disagree, what verses show that the possession of eternal life is some time after believing?
[QUOT]This verse clearly states that the one hearing the Word and is believing on the one (The Father) who sent Christ, is proof that they already have eternal life.[/QUOTE]
No, that is poor grammatical sense. Jesus was speaking in the present tense. You're trying to force the past tense into the statement.
Do you think a person has eternal life before they believe? That's what it seems you believe.
It doesn't say that at all. Yes, John used participles (he sure liked them). But the usual English translations mean the same thing.
Those who now believe now have eternal life.
[QUIOTE]Why do I say this is the proper interpretation?[/QUOTE]
I have no clue.
Nope. It should be obvious that John wasn't referring to believing relative to his own present tense, but to those who believe, do so in their own present tense. So, whenever a person believes, it is the present tense WHEN they believe. That's all.
And, the MOMENT one believes, that is when they "have passed out of death into life". iow, the life that they pass INTO is eternal life, which is possessed the MOMENT one believes.
Doesn't matter. No one can perform an action in the past tense. When one does perform an action, it is in the present when they do it.
Impossible. We didn't exist back then. Jesus was talking about WHEN one believes is when all the actions in the verse take place.
Nope. That is a Calvinist talking point.
There are no verses that show that regeneration, or the new birth, occurs BEFORE or SO THAT one can believe.
In fact, Eph 2:5 and 8 prove that both salvation and regeneration occur AFTER believing.
v.5 - made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
v.8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
The red words refer to regeneration, and the blue words at the end of v.5 refer to salvation.
The end of v.5 is found at the beginning of v.8. Then Paul clarifies HOW both regeneration and salvation occur: "through faith", the green words.
This proves that regeneration is through faith and salvation is through faith.
iow, the faith is present BEFORE regeneration and salvation.
Hopefully Eph 2:5 and 8 will show you the truth.
That is simply not true. Just another Calvinist talking point.
Nope. If this were true, why did God reveal Himself through creation to mankind so that no one has any excuse, and why did God create mankind with a conscience, with which to understand right from wrong??
He revealed Himself and gave man a conscience PRECISELY because man is able to believe or reject the gospel.
Do you understand that rejecting something is a choice. And a choice must have at least 2 options. In the case of rejecting, the other option is accepting or believing.
Acts 14:2 - But the Jews who refused to believe stirred up the other Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers.
Acts 19:9 - But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus.
Rev 16:9 - They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.
Rev 16:11 - and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.
These verses prove that man is able to believe and repent.
A person CANNOT refuse something they are unable to do. That would be an insane claim, to refuse what you can't do.
Why would anyone see tention in that? There are temporal and eternal benefits. There is no tension.
Yes, temporal. In this life.
Again, no tension. This is the eternal.
And, no tension whatsoever. Unless one sees tension between the present and future tense. I don't.
Being a new creature in this life (temporal) doens't mean sinlessness, so again, there is no tension.
In the here and now (temporal), we have our sin natures and will sin. But in eternity (future) we won't have a sin nature and will NOT sin.
Now, why would anyone see tension in this? There isn't any.
Correct.
The reality is that the Bible contains NO tension.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tension
: inner striving, unrest, or imbalance often with physiological indication of emotion
: a state of latent hostility or opposition between individuals or groups
: a balance maintained in an artistic work between opposing forces or elements
: the act or action of stretching or the condition or degree of being stretched to stiffness : TAUTNESS
Which of these definitions do you use to define the "tension" you see in the Bible?
Yes I checked the dictionary years ago when I wrote an essay on this..well it was actually on the 'significance of the Kingdom of God in Jesus' teaching' and the Already, not yet tension was a part of that essay.
But anyhow it would be best described like this which is a definition.
If we hold both things in tension with equal weight - that is already and not yet.
I hope that helps clear that up for you.
The scripture does not say "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and He shall put you on probation"
If you have received eternal life as a free gift of grace, how long will it last? if you lost it then it could never have been either a free gift of grace nor can it have been eternal.
The clue is in the term itself.
If you have a will to something but not the power to accomplish it then this will is not free but in bondage, which is what Paul teaches.
The scripture says of some that God has closed their eyes lest they should see and stopped up their ears lest they should hear and hardened their hearts lest they at any time turn to Him and He heal them.
There is no tension in the Bible.
I don't need clearing up. Again, what's the tension in the NOW and the FUTURE? Nothing at all.
Well, you have admitted that in spite of the definition of tension, you continue to think of the Bible in those terms.
And you didn't choose which of the definitions you apply when referring to the so-called tension in the Bible.
I asked:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tension
: inner striving, unrest, or imbalance often with physiological indication of emotion
: a state of latent hostility or opposition between individuals or groups
: a balance maintained in an artistic work between opposing forces or elements
: the act or action of stretching or the condition or degree of being stretched to stiffness : TAUTNESS
Which of these definitions do you use to define the "tension" you see in the Bible?
Where? Please be specific.
It is ridiculous to claim to "refuse" to do something that you cannot do.
Let's consider this NT "translation of Isa 6;9,10 from Acts 28
26 “ ‘Go to this people and say, “You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.”
27 For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’
Bolded words are words of volition (choice). These people aren't listening and closed their eyes so they won't see.
Free will all over the place.
specifically Paul says we were in bondage to the elemental spirits and he says we were slaves to sin.
It is YOU who said freewill means we will to do something but lack the power to accomplish it.
Such a will is not free but in bondage as Paul teaches.
Freewill doctrine does away with the cross for if you can decide for yourself to be righteous there was no need for Jesus to die for you. He died so that we may [by faith] die in Him. That means die to our will which is not free but as Paul teaches is in bondage.
I don't think you've grasped what is actually being said but that's OK. It was good talking to you FreeGrace2. Have a pleasant evening...Time for a cuppa and bed here. Have a blessed evening.